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ef31415
post Sep 15 2005, 05:48 AM
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Like the title says.

I don't think it's mentioned in any of the rules, unless you want to count it as a skill use = complex action.

If we say that summoning a spirit takes on the order of a minute or so (draw a circle, summon, negotiate, etc) that might make spirits less of a tactical nuke in combat. Using them would take some forethought if summoning took a while.



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Shinobi Killfist
post Sep 15 2005, 05:58 AM
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bottom left of pg 179 it takes a complex action. So um yeah there tactical nukes. Though I suspect that they got stat errata coming there way. A multiplier for reaction is just insane. If that's intended I'd say house rule it to a + sign instead. I've seen the suggestion somewhere else and so curses my sloth means I can't take credit for it.
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sapphire_wyvern
post Sep 15 2005, 06:52 AM
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It's a Complex Action to Summon a spirit, a (Force) hours-long ritual to Bind them.

Summoning = SR3 Shamanic style summoning, Binding = SR3 Hermetic style summoning.

But I disagree with your characterisation of spirits as tactical nukes. Nukes can be easily disarmed by someone who knows the codes. :wobble:

He he, just kidding. I've seen the concerns about the spirit rules here but I'm not going to condemn them till I've seen them actually in play.
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mintcar
post Sep 15 2005, 11:18 AM
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It´s got to be a mistake with the reaction. Even if you change it to a + most spirits will have a greater initiative on the physical plane than the astral. But as it stands the air spirit has twice as high initiative when materialized! That just can´t be right. I´m changing it without a doubt.
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FrankTrollman
post Sep 15 2005, 02:19 PM
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If you look at SR3 (page 266), the elementals and spirits had a bonus or penalty to quickness, and a running multiplier. The spirits in SR4 have the agility modifier of their SR3 counterpart's Quickness adjustment; and they have a reaction modifier equal to their SR3 counterpart's running multiplier. So it's a cut-and-paste error that someone dutifully and correctly figured initiative for as if it was intentional.

Expect spirits to have a reaction modifier of zero, or perhaps the same bonus/penalty that they have to agility.

-Frank
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blakkie
post Sep 15 2005, 03:05 PM
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Even with their Reaction fixed their Skill=Force with no limit that i've found is damn substantial. Pity the fool that goes hand-to-hand against a Spirit of the Beast. Just a Force 6 has Unarmed Combat pool 13, Str 8. Toss in Edge 6? Sure you can create a PC that'll match that, but most won't and that is just Force 6.

However once their speed is dropped they will at least be reasonably countered with banishing.
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Zen Shooter01
post Sep 15 2005, 06:16 PM
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Spirits are retardedly out of control. A complex action requiring no nuyen to summon, Immunity to Normal Weapons equal to Fx2! A force 4 spirit is practically immune to small arms fire!

Page 177 says that spirits can use their powers on any target in LOS. So a spirit in a 4th floor window 500 meters away, with its summoner standing next to it, can zap you without you every even knowing that it's there. Spirit snipers! Pg. 177 also states that "materialized physical forms are not subject to gravity," which seems to imply that earth spirits can fly!

It also seems to imply that if you kick one it will be flung away from you as if in a zero G environment, but we'll leave that bad choice of words alone for now. :S

And drain is equal to the spirit's hits on the opposed summoning test, x2. So a force 6 will usually do 4 drain. Whoopdee doo.

I'm immediately house ruling that Immunity to Normal Weapons is not hardened armor for spirits, and that spirits may not affect a target outside of their summoner's control zone with their powers.
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Shadow_Prophet
post Sep 15 2005, 08:11 PM
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Well considering it specificaly states that spirits in physical form are supposed to be damn near unhurtable by any non magical char. I think they work exactly like they're supposed to. and if you have a mage with banishing, you make a banishing attempt. Rinse and repeat as nessecary. It only has so many services it can preform. The more powerful the spirit, the less services the mage will probably get, and the less you have to banish.
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FrankTrollman
post Sep 15 2005, 08:41 PM
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Actually, since the spirit rolls its force to reduce services when summoned, and the spirit rolls force to reduce service reduction from banishment.... the spirit's force cancels out of the equation on average. It may as well just be an opposed test between your banishment skill and the original caster's summoning skill.

It's no easier or more difficult to banish a force 3 spirit than it is to banish a force 9 spirit.

Of course, any summoned spirit on "remote service" is currently unbanishable, and any halfway decent spirit is probably able to geek your mage in a single round. So yes, it's a problem. The total ineffectuality of mundanes against spirits renders street sams a questionable investment.

-Frank
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Shadow_Prophet
post Sep 15 2005, 08:49 PM
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QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
Actually, since the spirit rolls its force to reduce services when summoned, and the spirit rolls force to reduce service reduction from banishment.... the spirit's force cancels out of the equation on average. It may as well just be an opposed test between your banishment skill and the original caster's summoning skill.

It's no easier or more difficult to banish a force 3 spirit than it is to banish a force 9 spirit.

Of course, any summoned spirit on "remote service" is currently unbanishable, and any halfway decent spirit is probably able to geek your mage in a single round. So yes, it's a problem. The total ineffectuality of mundanes against spirits renders street sams a questionable investment.

-Frank

Well...I'm not sure where it says that you can't bannish spirits on remote services. It specificaly states that all other services, other than the one or ones its on are given up. It says it does not count towards the max number of spirits either. But neither in banishing or in remote services did i find anything that specificaly forbid the banishing of spirits on remote services.

As for being easier or harder to banish a force 3 or force 9. It realy depends on how many services and what services have been used. And actualy a better comparison is its no easier or harder to banish a spirit than it is to summon it. since its essentialy the summoning test in reverse.
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FrankTrollman
post Sep 15 2005, 09:01 PM
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QUOTE
Once a spirit has been given a remote service, it is technically
released.


QUOTE
Each net hit scored by the magician reduces the services
owed by the spirit by one (including any it is currently engaged
in).


It's already released, so Banishing doesn't do anything to it any more than it does to any other uncontrolled spirit.

-Frank
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Shadow_Prophet
post Sep 15 2005, 10:50 PM
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QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
QUOTE
Once a spirit has been given a remote service, it is technically
released.


QUOTE
Each net hit scored by the magician reduces the services
owed by the spirit by one (including any it is currently engaged
in).


It's already released, so Banishing doesn't do anything to it any more than it does to any other uncontrolled spirit.

-Frank

Services owed including the one its currently on. To me that says spirits on remote services still are carrying out a service, thus that service could still be dispelled. Which i would see as the downfall of the remote service. Its only realy one service, though it could be multiple ones.

It doesn't specificaly say remote service spirits can't be banished, so in my game unless it gets put in the errata you will be able to banish or atleast atempt to banish remote service spirits.
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Zen Shooter01
post Sep 16 2005, 01:10 AM
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Shadow Prophet: Regardless of whether or not they work as intended, they're still broken. Like I said, even a force 4 is immune to gunfire, and "Go kill those ten guys" is one service. And because summoning drain is so light, there's very little to stop a magician from immediately summoning another spirit as soon as the first completes its services. And did I mention "go kill those ten guys" is one service?
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Shadow_Prophet
post Sep 16 2005, 01:13 AM
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QUOTE (Zen Shooter01)
Shadow Prophet: Regardless of whether or not they work as intended, they're still broken. Like I said, even a force 4 is immune to gunfire, and "Go kill those ten guys" is one service. And because summoning drain is so light, there's very little to stop a magician from immediately summoning another spirit as soon as the first completes its services. And did I mention "go kill those ten guys" is one service?

And its one complex action, that you could spend a edge to get to banish that spirit, while your teamates pour fire into the mage. Theres a reason why theres a phrase "Geek The Mage First".
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Zen Shooter01
post Sep 16 2005, 01:26 AM
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But spirits now dominate everything. You're right; Its now just a race to kill the other team's mage first (which will irritate a lot of players running mages). The PC team that does not include a magician capable of conjuring is worthless - the first time it runs into a spirit, it will be massacred. The PC team that loses its magician is automatically doomed.

Because every PC team will have conjuring, every NPC team they encounter will have to have a magician of its own to counter that threat. And where are all these magicians coming from if only a single-digit percentage of the population is magically active?
Conjuring isn't an element of combat - it is combat. And that bores me.
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blakkie
post Sep 16 2005, 01:33 AM
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QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
QUOTE
Once a spirit has been given a remote service, it is technically
released.


QUOTE
Each net hit scored by the magician reduces the services
owed by the spirit by one (including any it is currently engaged
in).


It's already released, so Banishing doesn't do anything to it any more than it does to any other uncontrolled spirit.

Hmmm, i think i know why you think you are being insulted a lot. You probably think it an insult to you rather than an just an astute observation for someone to say "Frank, you are rules lawyering weenie, and an innept one at that."
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Shadow_Prophet
post Sep 16 2005, 01:47 AM
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QUOTE (Zen Shooter01)
But spirits now dominate everything. You're right; Its now just a race to kill the other team's mage first (which will irritate a lot of players running mages). The PC team that does not include a magician capable of conjuring is worthless - the first time it runs into a spirit, it will be massacred. The PC team that loses its magician is automatically doomed.

Because every PC team will have conjuring, every NPC team they encounter will have to have a magician of its own to counter that threat. And where are all these magicians coming from if only a single-digit percentage of the population is magically active?
Conjuring isn't an element of combat - it is combat. And that bores me.

Only if say you're a horrible GM.

Hell a team in sr4 that looses its hacker I think is worse off but hey thats me.

You don't need to send mages after teams that have mages...its simply not needed. There are far better ways. Brute force is a horrible tactic. Just because there is the phrase "If brute force is not working, you're not applying enough of it." it doesn't mean that its a good tactic as a GM.

Runners using spirits left and right? Astral signatures, watcher spirits, ect. Better tactics. Don't have your teams engage the runners directly. Herd the runners with better tactics. Attempt to take away the ability of them to function as a team. Jam wireless, lock doors. The runners will do something unpredictable that you don't think of.

Brute force is messy. Sending spirits to constantly do the dirty work is messy.

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ef31415
post Sep 16 2005, 01:47 AM
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QUOTE (Shadow_Prophet)
QUOTE (Zen Shooter01 @ Sep 15 2005, 08:10 PM)
Shadow Prophet: Regardless of whether or not they work as intended, they're still broken. Like I said, even a force 4 is immune to gunfire, and "Go kill those ten guys" is one service. And because summoning drain is so light, there's very little to stop a magician from immediately summoning another spirit as soon as the first completes its services. And did I mention "go kill those ten guys" is one service?

And its one complex action, that you could spend a edge to get to banish that spirit, while your teamates pour fire into the mage. Theres a reason why theres a phrase "Geek The Mage First".

If the other mage has a clue, they will be 200 meters away and _way_ out of sight, watching the whole thing on trideo.

One spirit goes down, they send in another. Und so weiter.

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FrankTrollman
post Sep 16 2005, 01:55 AM
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QUOTE (ef31415)
QUOTE (Shadow_Prophet @ Sep 15 2005, 08:13 PM)
QUOTE (Zen Shooter01 @ Sep 15 2005, 08:10 PM)
Shadow Prophet: Regardless of whether or not they work as intended, they're still broken. Like I said, even a force 4 is immune to gunfire, and "Go kill those ten guys" is one service. And because summoning drain is so light, there's very little to stop a magician from immediately summoning another spirit as soon as the first completes its services. And did I mention "go kill those ten guys" is one service?

And its one complex action, that you could spend a edge to get to banish that spirit, while your teamates pour fire into the mage. Theres a reason why theres a phrase "Geek The Mage First".

If the other mage has a clue, they will be 200 meters away and _way_ out of sight, watching the whole thing on trideo.

One spirit goes down, they send in another. Und so weiter.

They don't have to wait until the first spirit drops, they have have to wait until the first spirit moves out. A Magician with Synaptic Booster I or Increased Reflexes can summon a Force 4 Spirit every round and detail it to remote service destroy an enemy on the other side of a wall. Every time he sends one off on a remote service it no longer counts as a summoned spirit under his control and he can summon another one.

And another.

And another....

-Frank
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Shadow_Prophet
post Sep 16 2005, 01:56 AM
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QUOTE (ef31415)
QUOTE (Shadow_Prophet @ Sep 15 2005, 08:13 PM)
QUOTE (Zen Shooter01 @ Sep 15 2005, 08:10 PM)
Shadow Prophet: Regardless of whether or not they work as intended, they're still broken. Like I said, even a force 4 is immune to gunfire, and "Go kill those ten guys" is one service. And because summoning drain is so light, there's very little to stop a magician from immediately summoning another spirit as soon as the first completes its services. And did I mention "go kill those ten guys" is one service?

And its one complex action, that you could spend a edge to get to banish that spirit, while your teamates pour fire into the mage. Theres a reason why theres a phrase "Geek The Mage First".

If the other mage has a clue, they will be 200 meters away and _way_ out of sight, watching the whole thing on trideo.

One spirit goes down, they send in another. Und so weiter.

Why's that? If the sec mage is smart he'll be astrall pegging the mage runner's astral sig. Or will have a watcher do it. And why would the first reaction be, send in a spirit to kill them?

Wait wait, abstract thought.
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ef31415
post Sep 16 2005, 01:57 AM
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Is there anyone here who doesn't think spirits are broken -- and by broken I mean any competent spirit-summoning mage will so dominate the battlefield that other characters are close to ineffective. In fact, the functional effectiveness boils down to a) how well can they support a spirit-summoning mage and b) how well can they handle a spirit coming at them?

I can think of a few exceptions:
-- snipers
-- infiltration specialists
-- deckers (hackers ha!)
but all of these characters function because they don't get anywhere near a SSM.

So, let me propose a few rules for spirits:

1) A magician can only summon or bind, in terms of standard rules, spirits of force =< their initiation grade.
2) A magician can summon spirits of any force with the standard drain rules, but if the force is bigger than in (1) the spirit owns them no services. They have to bargain with the spirit, exchanging service for service. This can take a while, to say the least.



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blakkie
post Sep 16 2005, 01:58 AM
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QUOTE (Shadow_Prophet)
Services owed including the one its currently on. To me that says spirits on remote services still are carrying out a service, thus that service could still be dispelled. Which i would see as the downfall of the remote service. Its only realy one service, though it could be multiple ones.

It doesn't specificaly say remote service spirits can't be banished, so in my game unless it gets put in the errata you will be able to banish or atleast atempt to banish remote service spirits.

Of course the banishing removes it. Frank is just holding to form.

However there seems to be a way in the rules to keep the protective buffer of extra services when you send the spirit on a remote service. Ensure you convert all services to remote services when you send it out. Depending on the order in which your GM decides to banish services (LIFO or FIFO) you might want to make those extra task duplicates of the first in case it is the first one that gets banished first.

P.S. Your GM might choose to interpret the text under Remote Services to mean that sending out the spirit converts all the services to one remote service that can have multiple tasks under it, one task for each service that had been remaining. I wouldn't read it that way, but. *shrug*
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blakkie
post Sep 16 2005, 02:03 AM
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QUOTE (ef31415)
So, let me propose a few rules for spirits:
1) A magician can only summon or bind, in terms of standard rules, spirits of force =< their initiation grade.
2) A magician can summon spirits of any force with the standard drain rules, but if the force is bigger than in (1) the spirit owns them no services. They have to bargain with the spirit, exchanging service for service. This can take a while, to say the least.

You have to bargin with a Watcher until you first initiate? Er, that's more than a bit draconian. :(

I think there are ways to tone them back enough that stops short of that.
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ef31415
post Sep 16 2005, 02:06 AM
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Yes, you have a point.
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Shadow_Prophet
post Sep 16 2005, 02:10 AM
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QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
QUOTE (ef31415 @ Sep 15 2005, 08:47 PM)
QUOTE (Shadow_Prophet @ Sep 15 2005, 08:13 PM)
QUOTE (Zen Shooter01 @ Sep 15 2005, 08:10 PM)
Shadow Prophet: Regardless of whether or not they work as intended, they're still broken. Like I said, even a force 4 is immune to gunfire, and "Go kill those ten guys" is one service. And because summoning drain is so light, there's very little to stop a magician from immediately summoning another spirit as soon as the first completes its services. And did I mention "go kill those ten guys" is one service?

And its one complex action, that you could spend a edge to get to banish that spirit, while your teamates pour fire into the mage. Theres a reason why theres a phrase "Geek The Mage First".

If the other mage has a clue, they will be 200 meters away and _way_ out of sight, watching the whole thing on trideo.

One spirit goes down, they send in another. Und so weiter.

They don't have to wait until the first spirit drops, they have have to wait until the first spirit moves out. A Magician with Synaptic Booster I or Increased Reflexes can summon a Force 4 Spirit every round and detail it to remote service destroy an enemy on the other side of a wall. Every time he sends one off on a remote service it no longer counts as a summoned spirit under his control and he can summon another one.

And another.

And another....

-Frank

It takes 2 rounds to summon and command a spirit. One complex to summon simple action to command.

Furthermore, yes he could do that, abstract thought tells me that thats would be bad for the mage doing it. It would also be taxing to do. Spirits on remote tasks also cary things out single mindedly. "Engage them on the other side of the wall" Well thats nice that could mean the sec team down the hall, those innocent bystandards, ect ect ect.

Lets figure out why people don't do this in the sr story realms?

Well its taxing for one.

You're creating one hell of a beacon of a astral signature.

You're going to end up pissing off the spirits. And if they don't break free themselves, another one will probably come along and either corrupt the mage, or kill him. Spirits don't like being bound certainly. And I doubt they overly like the fact that they're being summoned constantly and forced to do things.

Oh no the mage on the other side of the wall is summoning spirits. Hacker turns the security systems around, and sends a patrol of guards after the mage with shoot on sight, telling the security patrol its one of the runners with a mask spell up. Send it from the mage even. Bam security patroll rolls in and guns down their own mage.

Theres a large variety of reasons why this is not a great tactic. And its not fun as well.
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