Can I please Get Advice On What Spells To Get..

Can I please Get Advice On What Spells To Get..

Leviathan View Member Profile	Sep 16 2005, 01:43 PM Post #1
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 145 Joined: 6-May 04 Member No.: 6,305	Hey, I'm building my first Shamen, and I'm wondering what spells I should get at CharGen, and at what force. I'm building a Dwarven Dragonslayer Rastas (Rastafarian Shamen), so combat is going to be my specialty, then throwing in some utility and defensive stuff. He's going to be very much of the mindset that technology has made people lose their way, that they should follow a more relaxed lifestyle involving simple things like dance, music, sunshine, etc, and fight with their own skill and wits, not using high technology. He doesn't even have any firearms skill, the only non-magic combat skill he has is Pole-Arms. So far all I can think of is Manaball, Stunbolt, Invisibility, Levitate, Bullet Barrier? (ie, the protection from firearms spell, not sure if thats what it's called), an elemental attack spell of some kind. Beyond that, I have no idea. (PS, I can post full stats and skills if you wish)

Cray74

Sep 16 2005, 02:57 PM

Post #2

Running Target

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QUOTE

So far all I can think of is Manaball, Stunbolt, Invisibility, Levitate, Bullet Barrier? (ie, the protection from firearms spell, not sure if thats what it's called), an elemental attack spell of some kind. Beyond that, I have no idea.

Suggestions:

*Make sure invisibility is "Improved Invisibility."

*Heal or Treat. There's more to combat than killing - there's also surviving. Some sort of healing spell is one of the most useful spells a mage can have.
--Get a Medkit!! (Or one of those nanomedkits from Man & Machine). The combination of First Aid + spells is an enormously powerful healing system. Successful First Aid drops the injured by one wound level (like, 9 boxes/Serious to 3 boxes/moderate), then you can follow up with a spell to heal even the most cybered samurai down to Light, if not fully heal them. With a couple of minutes outside of combat, you can turn a mangled group of runners back into a fighting force.

*Get Mind Probe. It's an enormously useful spell that can gather all sorts of information in minutes that would otherwise take days of searching, bribing, and interrogating.

*Damaging spells are nice for combat mages, but remember that mundane weapons don't impose drain and can do the work of many offensive spells. Also, a few basic spells (manabolt, stunball) can accomplish most of the lethal/nonlethal damage a combat mage needs to deliver. So, when you pick your offensive spells, look for effects that aren't easily duplicated by weapons or "basic" spells:
--Replace stunbolt with stunball. Stunbolt is easily handled by a street legal taser, but the only weapons that can deliver area effect stuns are concussion grenades. Grenades can be hard to smuggle into secure areas and are a lot noisier than a stunball.
--Replace manaball with manabolt. Manabolt makes a nice, lethal "concealed weapon" that the average corp guard won't spot even with a full cavity search. You can use stunball to take down a lot of people at once and kill them at your liesure with a pocket knife or even your barehands.
--As for elemental manipulations...well, they're flashy and cool, but you can get most of your work done with manabolt, stunball, and mundane weapons, thus saving spell points for utility spells.

*Levitate could be useful, but I'd save it for later purchase. Spend a few points on the Athletics skill and consider some climbing gear until you have those spare spell points.

*Bullet barrier is nice, but body armor doesn't require concentration to sustain, so I'd save bullet barrier for later. Caveat: if you have some spell points left over, a generic barrier is one of those concealable "items" that a security guard won't find. If you plan on going places that frown on armor, barrier spells could be worthwhile.

*Makeover and Fashion are useful, but might be saved for later. They can clean you up in an eyeblink and change your appearance and clothing to help elude escape...and you won't need to sustain them, unlike Physical Mask.

Bearclaw View Member Profile	Sep 16 2005, 03:19 PM Post #3
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,632 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Portland Oregon, USA Member No.: 1,304	I would switch, and use stun ball and mana bolt. Stunning everyone in a group means that it won't be a big deal if a team mate is in the area of effect. Also, think about lightning bolt. The elemental electricity effect is very harsh on high tech equipment, and can even frag a rigger through a drone network. And, if you don't like technology, I'd recomend some wreck spells.

hyzmarca View Member Profile	Sep 16 2005, 03:34 PM Post #4
Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456	Don't forget the infamous Increased Reflexes +3 at force 1 in a sustaining focus.

toturi View Member Profile	Sep 16 2005, 04:04 PM Post #5
Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187	Bear in mind these advice are SR3 (I think). So if you are playing SR4, all bets are off.

blakkie

Sep 16 2005, 04:15 PM

Post #6

Dragon

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QUOTE (Cray74 @ Sep 16 2005, 08:57 AM)

QUOTE

So far all I can think of is Manaball, Stunbolt, Invisibility, Levitate, Bullet Barrier? (ie, the protection from firearms spell, not sure if thats what it's called), an elemental attack spell of some kind. Beyond that, I have no idea.

Suggestions:

*Make sure invisibility is "Improved Invisibility."

You didn't mention the Force you are learning it at, so is this SR4? (in SR4 you can cast any spell known at any Force your Magic allows)

If this is SR3 you don't lose much by having Invisibility/Improved Invisibility at Force 1. Casting that spell at Force 1 is a standard cheese, as long as you are able to generate a large number of hits. If the number of hits you generate is larger than a mundane opponent's Int stat they have no chance of succeeding. Opponents that have Spell Defense coverage do throw a wrinkle into that, and sometimes you'll run have a tough time coming up with enough hits to stump Int 6 baddies. But generally this is good enough to get past the standard guards/mooks. The awakened are usually are tough nuts for a starting PC to fool at any reasonable level of drain. Depending on GM ruling, virtually impossible if they are observing in the astral.

EDIT: Some GMs rule that Inivisibility works on the astral, and Improve Inivisibility does not. Plus Invisibility has a lower drain. So if you have the points to spare Invisibility at a high force plus Improve Inivisibility at Force 1 covers a lot of territory.

Eyeless Blond View Member Profile	Sep 16 2005, 04:21 PM Post #7
Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156	Only problem is that most rule that you need to cast a spell at a Force equal to half the Object Resistance (OR) of an object to affect it, so good luck affecting an OR 8-10 security camera with a Force 1 spell. :)

toturi View Member Profile	Sep 16 2005, 04:39 PM Post #8
Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187	Illusion spells always open a can of worms. If you want to know the optimum Force at which to take a spell at, consult your GM first. If he rules that the target of the Imp Invis is the person who is invisible and not the viewer, then by all means, take the spell at Force 1. Otherwise, I would advise you take it at Force 5 or greater.

Vaevictis View Member Profile	Sep 16 2005, 08:09 PM Post #9
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 530 Joined: 11-June 05 Member No.: 7,441	See if you can get your GM to let you learn mana barrier or limited physical barrier: flesh. Both are good if you're fighting paranormal animals or enemies with melee weapons and you have firearms -- you can hit them, but they can't get close enough to hit you. They're also good in a vehicle chase. Just drop one of these barriers in front of the chasing vehicle, and watch all the people inside of it go "splat" against the barrier. Stunball is a must. The ability to drop large groups of enemies and easily manage the drain should not be underestimated. Splash (twl.124) is also an excellent choice if you intend to fight enemies with high willpower -- it's an area effect elemental manipulation with drain of (DL) straight up. It basically breaks the pattern of all area of effect spells being at least (DL+1) or (DL+2) for elemental manipulation ones. It's absolutely outstanding. As a bonus, it does extra damage to fire elementals, salamanders, etc. You also want at least one single-target attack spell. I would suggest looking at powerbolt, stunbolt, lightning bolt, waterbolt or maybe clout. You will want to consider what area effect spells you picked when purchasing this one; if you select them of the same type, then if an enemy is highly resistant to one, they'll be highly resistant to the other. You might not care, but it's definately something to be aware of. Catalog, Stabilize, Sanitize are all spells that are worth getting on the cheap as exclusives.

Catsnightmare

Sep 17 2005, 12:32 AM

Post #10

Moving Target

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QUOTE (Vaevictis)

See if you can get your GM to let you learn mana barrier or limited physical barrier: flesh.

Both are good if you're fighting paranormal animals or enemies with melee weapons and you have firearms -- you can hit them, but they can't get close enough to hit you. They're also good in a vehicle chase. Just drop one of these barriers in front of the chasing vehicle, and watch all the people inside of it go "splat" against the barrier.

Actually this example no longer works, it's been ruled out and the spells no longer exist in SR3.

Trax View Member Profile	Sep 17 2005, 01:03 AM Post #11
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 470 Joined: 2-January 05 From: Quebec Member No.: 6,924	If they can bring back Turn to Goo in SR4, anything is possible.

Herald of Verjig... Herald of Verjigorm View Member Profile	Sep 17 2005, 01:25 AM Post #12
Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017	Bullet barrier establishes the precedent of restricted target barrier spells. The only thing stopping Flesh Barrier is for GMs to insist that when it is cast it creates a wall of "I can't believe it's not human" skin and muscle held in place with a simple skeletal framework.

Leviathan View Member Profile	Sep 17 2005, 03:18 PM Post #13
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 145 Joined: 6-May 04 Member No.: 6,305	For note, we're playing SR3. hyzmarca - Nope, our GM is using the 'erratad' version of improved reflexes, no massive cheese like that ;) Vaevictis - thanks for the combat spell advice Those who were talking about the invis stuff, I havn't looked up invis yet, so jury is still out on that one :)

toturi View Member Profile	Sep 17 2005, 04:54 PM Post #14
Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187	Without the Force 1 Improved Ref +3, you are going to really need that Force 1 Improved Invis if you want to be a combat shaman. My suggestion would be to allow either one of the 2 cheese, but not both: Imp Invis + Area effect combat spells Or Imp Ref + single target combat spells So that you actually get to do some real damage on par with the other combat types.

Fortune

Sep 17 2005, 05:05 PM

Post #15

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QUOTE (Leviathan)

Nope, our GM is using the 'erratad' version of improved reflexes, no massive cheese like that

What 'errata'ed' version? I find no mention of any changes (official or even just recommended) on the SR website, either in the Errata or the FAQ.

Eyeless Blond View Member Profile	Sep 17 2005, 05:11 PM Post #16
Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156	Probably means Houseruled. That seems to be a common enough one, even though it really makes the mages nigh-useless or at least much more geekable than they are even now. Anyeay, toturi's got a pretty good idea to make a combat mage useful even with the gimped Reflexes. In fact it's not all that horrible to cast improved invis at a high enough force to be non-cheese (Force 5 or 6 w/ fetish) and still get some interesting spells out. If you don't want either then I'd just suggest you take Shapechange, turn yourself into a mouse and hide behind a crate while summoning spirits. :)

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	Sep 17 2005, 05:24 PM Post #17
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,012 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	Summoning is Exclusive, is it not? ~J

Trax View Member Profile	Sep 17 2005, 05:32 PM Post #18
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 470 Joined: 2-January 05 From: Quebec Member No.: 6,924	Won't a sustaining focus solve that?

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	Sep 17 2005, 07:14 PM Post #19
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,012 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	No. Page 178 says that the magician must drop any sustained spells, and does not make exceptions for foci. It's also interesting to note, and something that I had forgotten, that you technically can't use a sustaining focus to sustain an Exclusive spell. ~J

Fortune

Sep 17 2005, 07:58 PM

Post #20

Immoral Elf

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QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Sep 18 2005, 05:14 AM)

No. Page 178 says that the magician must drop any sustained spells, and does not make exceptions for foci.

So, are you saying that, in your opinion, a character could not even be using a Sustaining Focus if he wants to Summon (or use any other Exclusive magical ability)? If so, I have to disagree with that. That is one of the main benefits of a Sustaining Focus. The mage is no longer sustaining the spell when he uses the Focus, so he wouldn't need to drop it.

QUOTE

It's also interesting to note, and something that I had forgotten, that you technically can't use a sustaining focus to sustain an Exclusive spell.

This, on the other hand, is totally correct.

Aku View Member Profile	Sep 18 2005, 03:25 AM Post #21
Running, running, running Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,220 Joined: 18-October 04 From: North Carolina Member No.: 6,769	although both of you have much better rules-fu than I, i'm going to side with kage on this one. Basically, i see it as ANY active ward gets rended apart by it and has to be dropped, not just those being actively sustained by the magician, and i can think of no other example that would give support to foci being able to keep a spell up across a ward. Elementals and spirits can't cross a ward manifested (sustaining themselves, in a sense) For some reason i want to say i remember even reading it, but i can't think of where EDIT: Pardon me, Idiot, coming through... idiot, comingthrough, make wa, highly contagious idiot, coming through

Trax View Member Profile	Sep 18 2005, 03:41 AM Post #22
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 470 Joined: 2-January 05 From: Quebec Member No.: 6,924	Huh? Where does the ward come in? I was under the impression that although summoning is an exclusive action, by using a sustaining focus they can still have a sustained spell on them since the focus is sustaining the spell, not the shaman/mage who can then concentrate on more important things.

Fortune View Member Profile	Sep 18 2005, 04:06 AM Post #23
Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486	Yeah, I said nothing whatsoever about Wards.

toturi

Sep 18 2005, 11:37 AM

Post #24

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QUOTE (Kagetenshi)

No. Page 178 says that the magician must drop any sustained spells, and does not make exceptions for foci.

It's also interesting to note, and something that I had forgotten, that you technically can't use a sustaining focus to sustain an Exclusive spell.

~J

Then does that mean that any quickened sustained spells must be dropped as well? I see it as "dropping any spells you are sustaining". But I can certainly see how you can come up with that interpretation, although that interpretation opens up a larger can of worms than I am willing to accept.

Leviathan View Member Profile	Sep 18 2005, 12:19 PM Post #25
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 145 Joined: 6-May 04 Member No.: 6,305	Ok, we're getting a bit off topic, could people please move that to another thread? :) The house rule is, I think (though I'm not 100% sure), that the maximum number of net successes you can get on Imp Reflex (or it might be on all spells) is equal to the spell's force. So a Force One Imp Reflex, the max you can get is 1 success.

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