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 Cyberware Vs. Bioware, I'll miss you wired reflexes |
 Sep 18 2005, 04:02 AM
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#26
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Shooting Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,838 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,669  |
I've changed Wired Reflexes to 1.5 Essence and 15,000 :nuyen: per level, Synaptic Booster to 0.5 Essence and 75,000 :nuyen: per level, and the Adept version to 1.5 power points per level. It all seems fine for my purposes.
Jay |
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Sep 18 2005, 06:21 AM
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#27
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
That's a reasonable enough cost point. There are a couple of things I don't understand: 1. Why did you drop the cost of Synaptic Boosters? I didn't know anyone was complaining that they were too cheap 2. Why did you leave Wired Reflexes at costing enough essence that Betaware was not a good investment compared to the Bioware version? If Wired Reflexes costs 1 Essence per point, it isn't worth getting at delta when compared to Synaptic Boosters, but is still justifiable at beta (where you pay somewhat more essence but less moneys). If Wired costs more than that, it isn't worth buying at Beta either. So what made you pick those price points? Personally, I don't give a crap what delta clinic attendees do because none of my players ever are one. So the price point where only delta is a bad deal is pretty reasonable to me. But I do want people to take Betagrade Wired as a serious option, if only so that there will be more options. Without resorting to the Delta Clinic plot device, there are six grades of initiative enhancement that people can get for their characters, each costing more :nuyen: and less essence than the one before it: Wired Reflexes Alpha Wired Reflexes Beta Wired Reflexes Synaptic Booster Alpha Synaptic Booster Beta Synaptic Booster Under my house rules, the cost looks like this: Wired Reflexes 11k, 1 Essence Alpha Wired Reflexes 22k, .8 Essence Beta Wired Reflexes 44k, .7 Essence Synaptic Booster 80k, .5 Essence Alpha Synaptic Booster, 160k, .4 Essence Beta Synaptic Booster, 320k, .35 Essence Each version costs about twice as much as the one before, and each version costs about 80% of the Essence of the previous version. That seems like a pretty good setup to me. What was your reasoning? This isn't a challenge, I'm genuinely curious. -Frank |
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Sep 18 2005, 06:31 AM
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#28
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 502 Joined: 14-May 03 From: Detroit, Michigan Member No.: 4,583 |
QUOTE: Frank Trollman
You can take alpha, beta, and delta grades of bioware? I thought Synaptic Booster was bioware. What's more unless the rules have changed considerably because the booster is part of the brain it has to be cultured bioware. Is this still true? |
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Sep 18 2005, 06:34 AM
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#29
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 16,898 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
It's still Cultured, but bioware can now be taken in standard, alpha, beta, delta for some bizarre reason.
It is implied that Cultured Bioware is not standard-grade, but nowhere is this followed up on. ~J |
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Sep 18 2005, 06:46 AM
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#30
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 502 Joined: 14-May 03 From: Detroit, Michigan Member No.: 4,583 |
Wow. I know that SR4 was making everything work the same for simplicity sake, but that's right down mind boggling. I'm going to have to think for a while before I figure out how I'll respond to this. |
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Sep 18 2005, 10:16 AM
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#31
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 875 Joined: 16-November 03 Member No.: 5,827 |
Perhaps ... you could just use it? "Alpha" etc are just quality grades, "cultured" is a "production" method. Normal bioware can be produced in advance from standard sample cells, cultured bioware needs your cells as a sample.
SYL |
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Sep 18 2005, 10:21 AM
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#32
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 158 Joined: 19-March 03 From: Central IL Member No.: 4,278 |
Yeah, that is how I took it too. I was suprised by this change but pleased with it.
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Sep 18 2005, 03:04 PM
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#33
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 502 Joined: 14-May 03 From: Detroit, Michigan Member No.: 4,583 |
Okay, I've thought about it.
Potential Bioware House Rules --------------------------------------- For the sake of keeping some of the spirit of SR3. Alpha Grade is refered to as cultured Beta Grade is refered to as clonal Delta grade is refered to as clonal + gene therapy Bioware that is part of the brain or nervous system must be at least be cultured. A delta clinic does not automatically have the capacity to provide and implant bioware. Some high end clinics work with high-end cyberware exclusively, some work with high-end bioware, and some work with both. |
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Sep 18 2005, 04:00 PM
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#34
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,479 Joined: 6-May 05 From: Idaho Member No.: 7,377 |
Bioware that is part of the brain or nervous system are already called cultured. This may lead to some confusion if someone gets cultured alpha bio in your game.
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Sep 18 2005, 04:01 PM
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#35
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Personally, I really don't see any need to change it.
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Sep 18 2005, 04:07 PM
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#36
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 16,898 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
I think the implication is that everything that is already called Cultured is automatically Alpha-grade (with the cost and reduction factored in, and no basic grade available). Increase from there.
~J |
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Sep 18 2005, 04:58 PM
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#37
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 105 Joined: 28-August 05 Member No.: 7,637 |
oops.
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Sep 18 2005, 05:00 PM
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#38
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 105 Joined: 28-August 05 Member No.: 7,637 |
Dude, wait until you buy the book or the PDF before ya complain. also, if you wanna keeo the spirit of SR3, just play SR3. |
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Sep 18 2005, 06:45 PM
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#39
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 502 Joined: 14-May 03 From: Detroit, Michigan Member No.: 4,583 |
Actually this is proving very useful for me. I'm learning about the parts I don't particularly care for and learning about other pitfalls in the system. It'll be of good use when I actually do get the book. ( It's on order )
Because there are things in the SR4 that I do like? For example I like that the bio index is now history. I like that much of the gameplay appears to be faster and more efficient. I'm kind of under the belief ( or is it delusion? ) that with some house rules SR4 can be made to more resemble SR3 while still maintaining the streamlined functionality of SR4. |
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Jun 15 2006, 07:07 AM
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#40
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Target Group: Members Posts: 23 Joined: 20-March 05 Member No.: 7,193 |
Look this is Shadowrun, regardless of it being 3rd or 4th maintaining a coherent and consistant universe is key to maintaining long-time loyal fanbase. That doesn't mean there can not be change, it does mean the changes need to reflect the previous incarnations in spirit in order to be a true successors. The fact that bioware triumphs cyberware in a CYBERpunk game makes little sense, though the game being cyberpunk alone is not the only cause for agnst. Cyberware physically replaces the weaker meat portions of one's body with implanted machinery which will always be more powerful than meat. Having bioware reach the same capacity as cyberware doesn't make a lick of sense. The lower essence cost, yes that makes sense but why in Valhalla would bioware be as powerful as cyberware? |
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Jun 15 2006, 03:34 PM
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#41
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 244 Joined: 8-June 06 Member No.: 8,681 |
Your assumption that a cybered part will always be 'more powerful' than a bioengineered part is...well, very broad. It depends entirely on what part you're talking about. From the way you wrote that, I'm imagiing that the sort of thing you have in mind is, say, the grip strength of a mechanical hand versus a meat one. For that specific comparison, you're probably right...at least in a cyberpunk setting where we're assuming the existence of some small, light, very powerful energy source to give the thing juice. But on the example of reaction speed, for instance...'combat drugs' that give the user accelerated reactions are a staple of the cyberpunk genre. they probably show up in about as many books and movies as the hardware 'implant wires to parallel the nerves' approach. Once you've accepted THAT, it's a tiny step to an implanted bioware gland that produces the same drug. Some things will always be better as cyber, of course. Bioware implant weapons probably won't ever beat out a literal 'hand cannon' :) The 'augmented human' side of the cyberpunk genre doesn't have to be about machines, specifically. It's about people changing themselves with technology and becoming more (and maybe less) than they were before. It doesn't matter all that much whether the technology in question goes 'beep' or 'squish'. |
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Jun 15 2006, 03:35 PM
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#42
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
The same way that a moderately strong troll is stronger than a human with maxxed out cyber arms.
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Jun 15 2006, 03:48 PM
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#43
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Target Group: Members Posts: 17 Joined: 30-May 06 From: Near Seattle (Eastsider) Member No.: 8,622 |
Maybe the conversion from neuron to wire to neuron (cyber) is expensive enough time-wise that compared with a well-engineered neuron (bio), the two are approximately the same speed over the entire length, brain to motor neuron or muscle. There's gotta be some pretty nifty stuff on either end of the "cybernerve" which takes a non-zero amount of time to convert signals back and forth.
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Jun 15 2006, 04:39 PM
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#44
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 565 Joined: 7-January 04 Member No.: 5,965 |
Its interesting that the debate is on reflexes. If anything, i think the real problem is with limb replacement.
so we have F bone lacing vs legal bone density. muscle replacement vs muscle toner+augmentation. dermal plating vs orthoskin. looking at the way the rules have changed for dermal armor... I think its a fair bet that dermal sheathing is going to add to body to resist damage in the same way it used to add armor. the only difference between body to resist damage and armor, after all, is the break point where P bcomes S. the current half the essence for 6 times the cost seems a bit odd to me, but whatever. the trick here is that you get the SAME essence loss for either type if you have more bioware than cyberware. alphaware dermal plates become a superior choice in that case on both money and essence. with your bone enhancement... technicaly you could get both. aluminum+bone density is cheaper than titanium. the big kicker is you set off MAD and cannot get a permit for it. for the muscles... 40% the essence loss for 3x the cost is a great deal. alphaware replacement when you have more bio than cyber is actualy equal in essence cost, and a way to save a little bit of cash. we notice the reflexes because its such a much larger difference. I think a lot of wired stayed the same to balance out with adepts. that and you never see wired as cheaper/better than synaptic, just more affordable. plus its usefull if you want to use SR4 rules to run a game in 2050 with less of the fancy cyberware availible (at least until SOTA advances). |
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