Hi there,

I've got a little question.

How many IP does a drone have when rigged via VR by a rigger with a simsense accelerator (commlink upgrade from "Unwired") and a simsense booster (implant from "Augmented). The rigger has 5 IP with these implants, do these 2 IP also apply for the drone?

And please.. give me a quote from the rules to prove that, I have a discussion about that in a german SR form.

You are jumped in, you are able to spend your IPs on drone actions. All of them.

So yes, that means you can have drones acting on 5 passes. I believe that is the only thing in the game that moves that fast on the meat plane.

Hmmm... I'd object for the Simsense Booster to apply if somebody wants to rule that nothing gets faster than 4 IPs in Hamburger County.

Bear in mind that you have to spend 1 IP piloting so you only actually get 4 passes.

Not if you're confident that you can make a threshold 2 crash test.

Oh, wait, you're jumped in. Make that threshold 1.

Is there any kind of quote from the rules to back that up?

Which part?

If you're talking about being able to avoid spending a complex action every round piloting then
(vehicle combat rules, pages 168-169 SR4A)

Actions
Drivers must spend at least one Complex Action each turn driv-
ing their vehicle, or the vehicle goes out of control at the end of the
Combat Turn. Apply a –2 dice pool modifier to all actions by charac-
ters in an uncontrolled vehicle. If the driver does not make a Vehicle
Test to regain control of the vehicle in one Combat Turn, it crashes.
In most cases using any onboard vehicle accessories (sensors, ve-
hicle weapons, etc.) requires spending a Complex Action. (However,
there may be some cases where only a Free or Simple Action is necessary,
such as turning on/of Sensors or ECM, arming missiles, and so on.)
Below is a sample list of vehicle-speciic actions:


Complex Actions
Fire a Vehicle Weapon: A driver or passenger may ire a vehicle weapon.
Make Vehicle Test: A driver spends a Complex Action when
executing a maneuver that requires a Vehicle Test. (It doesn’t cost an
action if the driver is making a Vehicle Test to avoid a crash.)
Ram: The driver may attempt to ram another vehicle (see
Ramming, below).


So, if you're willing to eat a -2 to your actions, and you're confident you can make the crash test threshold (which is lowered by one if you're using VR) then you can forgo the action spent to control your vehicle.

heh, now i have the vision of a twirling, LMG loaded steel lynx pulling of a ultraviolet reenactment

Oh, it gets better, Technomancers can get an echo that allows them to take -2 to all their actions for the pass in return for an extra complex action. as long as one of the actions is kept in the matrix.

So they can have one drone with 5 IPs, and still remote control 5 IPs worth of other drone actions.

Nope.. I'm talking about a quote from the rules to prove that a rigger in a drone can have 5 IPs. Because there is a drone limitation of 3 IPs. But the rules say that a drone with a jumped in rigger acts at the riggers initiative. Does this also apply to the IP or only to the initiative score.

The chart on page 247 lists the Initiative for a Jumped-In drone as "as rigger." There is absolutely no precedent in the rules for being somehow "limited" in the number of passes you can take. If you're purely meat, you get all your meat IP's. If you are in the Astral you get all your Astral IP's, and if you are in the Matrix you get all your Matrix IP's.

Initiative <> Initiative Passes

Drone Initiative = Pilot Rating + response AND 3 IP Total

Jumped In Drone Initiative = Jumped In Rigger Initiative & ?? IP

Now we can look at the little piece of text that is "A drone controlled in this manner acts on the rigger’s Initiative—
the rigger and the drone are treated as a single unit. Any tests are
made using the rigger’s skills and the drone’s attributes (substituting
Response for Agility and Reaction and Sensor for Intuition)."

But you will notice it mentions nothing about Initiative Passes. It mentions Tests but not Initiative Passes.

Here is a question for ya. Does a drone under it's own pilot need to spend a complex action every round to drive itself?

Perhaps, but there isn't anywhere else in the rules where the two are not linked. When Jumped-in, the drone is the Rigger, and if the Riggers gets 5 IP, then that's what the drone gets.

Yes, or risk crashing.

except...



In other words, 'Initiative' is a package that includes your initiative score as well as passes. At least thats what I get from that reading.

That's funny

For canon confirmation I would look in Augmentation...

I believe that the relevant discussion for this is with the Jarhead and the drones that he controls... explicitly details 4 IP for such a situation (Due to the hardware involved... if the Jarhead goes all out with Hardware, they can indeed have 5 IP as indicated in the text... that should solve this)...

Sorry that I do not know the page number thoguh, I do not have my books available currently...

So if rigging a biodrone or for arguments sake a clone, would that unaugmented meat body get 5 passes?

Not sure what you believe you are referencing, but in any case no character gets 5 IP. Per SR4BBB, p.132: "No character can act in more than 4 Initiative Passes in a Combat Turn." Even if you find a way to Mod yourself up to +20IP, you only get 4 in practice.

Except for the things that explicitly allow for 5 IPs

Except where a specific item of gear provides an explicit exception to that general rule.

But that equipment explicitly only allows 5 IP for actions in the matrix So you could give that drone more commands, but it is limited in following them in the meatworld

While I can't provide any direct quotes to support this as the correct way of doing it (though I also can't find rules stating this is wrong), I'd probably go with following something akin to the Mesh Reality echo for Technomancers. If the rigger has 5 IPs and the Drone only has 3, then the Rigger still has 5 IPs but can spend at most 3 of them running around as the drone, the other two would need to be used for other purposes (fighting off hackers trying to steal your ride, sending commands to your other drones, etc.), or they go to waste.

one thing to keep in mind is that passes have more with reaction time to stimuli, and how fast one can process a scenario and react to it, then physical speed.

If you can take 5 ip with a drone and your jumped into a biodrone dog and get 5ip it opens a whole can of worms getting extra ip's in a meat body without the meat being enhanced.

Well, somewhere the meat has to be enhanced, either by internal or external means (wired reflexes, comlink, whatever).

Btw, looking in augmentation for info seems to indicate that the setup that allows direct rigger control, stirrup interface, is based of move-by-wire tech, so i'm not sure how big the issue is...

A rigger who is "jumped into" a vehicle is in the matrix, ergo any matrix enhancements should apply. Going hot sim is a matrix init enhancement, but no one is arguing it improved rigging initiative.

The issue is really simple.

-A character can get 5 initiative passes in the matrix by using a simsense accelerator and a simsense booster cyberware.

pg 198 of Unwired: "(so a hacker in hot sim with a simsense accelerator and simsense booster cyberware has 5 Initiative Passes). Initiative Passes; this is an exception to the rule that normally limits IPs to 4)."

-A drone you are "jumped in" acts on your initiative, ergo it would act during 5 passes. No where in the book does it say otherwise, and there is precendent for initiative passes being referred to as simply intitiative, apart from examples listed above, cyberware such as wired reflexes and bioware such as synaptic boosters state they are not compatible with other forms of initiative enhancement. Considering they raises passes and not initiative (raising reaction is not the same as raising inititive, the reaction increase stacks with other 'ware up to your augmented max) it can be further inferred that the term "initiative" includes passes.

Heck, i even personally rule that a rigger who is "jumped in" doesn't need to bother with cash checks. Gives rigging a more concrete advantage over remote controlling.

As for biodrones, if you can actually rig them, then yes you can get your matrix init passes (as init passes are more your perception than physical speed), but I would note that acting on more passes then the drone should be allowed is very taxing on their body and mind.

So your initiative went up by 1. So you got + 1 to your initiative score and +1 to your IP? Is this generally the case, or most enhncements explicitly differentiate between Initiative and Initiative Passes?

You are entitled to that opinion. But you can't claim it's an explicit reference and provide a citation. I would like someone to find one for me.

Almost all other Physical IP enhancements require specific enhancements dedicated to that purpose. There are also plenty of Matrix IP enhancements which explicitly raise matrix IP. What I am interested in is the bit where Matrix IP enhancements automatically map to Physical IP enhancements. There is one example that I know of and the cost for it implies it's not easy, nor the expected situation that Matrix IP = Physical IP.

You also don't want to confuse Drone Physical IP with the Pilot Matrix IP, even though they are both 3.
Just because Drone Physical IP = 3 and Drone Pilot Matrix Ip = 3 doesn't meant that Physical IP = Matrix IP. You have many cases where a Hacker has 1 Physical IP, and 2 or 3 Matrix IP, so the precedence for separete Ip depending on Physical or Matrix IP certainly exists.

Too bad you can't turn your own body into a biodrone while freeing your mind to then rig said biodrone through an implanted harwired commlink for a quick 5 IPs in meat-world...

All actions taken by the Rigger are Matrix actions, therefore, 5IP because that's the Rigger's Matrix IP's. Even though they are acting/interacting in the Physical world, they use Matrix Initiative and IP's. All Rigging actions are Matrix actions.

Do Jarheads count as "Biodrones"?

It depends on if you can fit the braincase (I forgot what it's called) into a biological body with cyberskull (for access). Possibly a removable head like the Borg Queen from Star Trek... whichever one it was.

So, you've convinced me the rigger has 5 Matrix IP. Which I wasn't arguing against. Does the drone get 5 IP in the Physical World because the Rigger has 5 Matrix IP? Where is the citation for that? Is that a general rule? Is it a specific rule?

There is a specific case where Matrix IP does map to Physical IP, and it's limited in the number of IP, and it's very very expensive to get.

The drone pilot has 3 IPs, but little to do with them while the rigger is jumped in.

ugh, now i have myself running loops on myself to stuff a jarhead into a wimp kitted out with a full set of obvious cyberlimbs, just to try and max the stat benefits...

The point is: All actions when Jumped In to a drone are considered Matrix Actions, therefore they use Matrix IP's. The Rigger is controlling the drone "via the Matrix," it is a Matrix action, it moves at Matrix speeds. Even though the drone is acting in the physical world, its user is acting at Matrix speeds. A VR user with 5 IP's who is in a Node that controls cameras can make those cameras move (or do something) 5 times a combat turn, we don't worry about how many IP's the camera has. Objects to not have inherent IP's, users do. The Drones Pilot Program is the one with 3 IP's, not the "drone." A drone doesn't have IP's, nor does a camera, or a sensor, a gun, an AR sign, a trid, or anything else that can be controlled via the Matrix. All devices act on their "controller's" Initiative and IP's. When a drone is acting autonomously, it uses its Pilot Program's Initiative and IP. When under Remote Control or Jumped In control, it acts on the Rigger's Initiative and IP.

I can't say for everything, but as far as I know nothing directly modifies your initiative or your initiative score, it instead either modifies your reaction, your response (if the you in this case is a drone or other sort of hardware that has a response value), your intuition (or sensor for drones?) or your IPs. So boosting your initiative score is done by boosting something else that it is derived from (such as reaction, response, or intuition, etc.).

How that relates to the subject of the thread....meh, no idea. My eyeballs hurt. I should just get them replaced with cyber versions. then I could have thermal vision...that would rock...

The Increase Reflexes spell directly adds to Initiative.

So every Sami should get a level 3 Stirrup Interface, internal Commlink, Simsense Booster and Simsense Accelerator. Then he just "Rigs" himself for 5 IP's.
(Or better yet clone a wimp, fill it full of cyber and let it get 5 passes while you sit safely in your armored basement.)

That is indeed one option... Good luck affording it though...

The issue is whether Matrix IP and Physical IP can be inherently mixed and matched when someone is jumped into a Drone.

"Drone Initiative equals Pilot rating + Response, and they receive two extra Initiative Passes (three total)." Drones do have IP. In this case the use of the attribute "Response" implies a physical action, since very few Matrix actions use a Response Attribute directly.

There are two general classes of actions that can be taken while Jumped into a Drone. The jumped in rigger can either perform a Matrix Action, which for a start is the list of Matrix Actions in the Wireless World section. For example Analyze Icon, Control Device, Data Search etc. Or the Jumped In Rigger could do Physical Action, which I infer to be the list of Combat Actions in the Combat section. The main one being Use Skill. Typically some sort of attack or defense.

I believe the text about using the Riggers Matrix attributes and skills exists specifically to allow a jumped in rigger to use their Matrix bonuses and skills while performing the physical actions with the drone.

When I consider the source of an enhancement, in this case a Matrix IP enhancer, I view this enhancement as allowing the entity with that enhancement as having the ability to have an extra action of that type. So wired reflexes add to physical actions, which includes AR Matrix actions.

Is the end result a Physical, Matrix, or Astral action? What enhancements apply normally? Are there specific exceptions listed which I need to include? At this point is where the text about a jumped in Rigger using Matrix bonuses comes in. It is also worthwhile to note that the Matrix IP enhancements are introduced after the original text about Jumped In Rigger attributes and bonuses and perhaps the interaction was not as clearly defined as the Astral <--> Physical IP issues have been, since it rarely existed prior to the introduction of the Matrix IP enhancements.

It's also worth noting in all other cases of crossing IP between modes it is very limited and expensive to do.

Rating 1 Stirrup Interface; you just need to be able to rig the person. And it's cheaper too.

How does this not answer this once and for all? Especially the "All actions by a rigger who has jumped into a drone (or other device) are considered Matrix actions" part? Let me put that out again: "All actions by a rigger who has jumped into a drone (or other device) are considered Matrix actions." There.

When you're running Hot Sim with a Simsense Accelerator and Simsense Booster, the drone moves at 5 IP, since it acts on your initiative, and all your actions are considered Matrix actions, and you get 5 IP for Matrix actions.

I don't think there are: everything done while Jumped In to a drone is considered a Matrix Action.

Consider something by contrast: Remote Control.

Controlling a drone in this manner is clearly stated as Matrix Action, it is the "Control a Device" action. The last sentence also states that the drone acts "on the rigger's action" (Thankfully avoiding the apparently ambiguous term "Initiative"). It doesn't make sense to me that the Rigger should "lose" actions by Jump In to a drone.

It doesn't matter if the action affects the physical or not. If the character is in full-VR, they get their Matrix Initiative and IP's.

EDIT: Thanks Neraph, I didn't want to sound too redundant.

The case of Remote Control as a Command program is a Matrix action and is much more likely to derive the benefit of a Matrix IP enhancer. This however doesn't mean the same thing happens when a rigger is Jumped In. There are a separate set of tests. You may notice the tests for Remote Control versus Jumped In use a different set of attributes.

I believe the second part of that quote, the part left out, is the relevant part, indicating the rigger benefits from the normal Matrix Hot Sim bonuses. This was explicitly written, well before any Matrix IP enhancements existed that put you over 3. It's an example of a specific case being stated because it may contradict a general case.

If additional content was written, yet still fall under the old rules, then the additional content applies to said rules. IE: If you get the +2 Hot Sim bonus when rigging, because it is a Matrix bonus, then you get the extra 2 IPs as well, since they are Matrix bonuses also.