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Panzergeist
Anyone have any idea what kind of prices you could fetch for selling bodies to organleggers? I'm talking about dead bodies, but fresh. Maybe magically preserved with that one spell that stops decomposition. Transplantable organs, ghoul meat, used cyberware, etc.
Lucifer
I'd say, first of all, that it depends on who you're working with. Hungry ghouls aren't going to pay much, but they also aren't going to care who the cadavre is or how you came about it. A ring of organleggers operating out of a legitimate hospital or street clinic, on the other hand, isn't going to want to take bodies that are going to draw a lot of attention from Lone Star, the Mafia, or any given megacorp.

Let's say you're working through a sleazy street doc. He probably has to sell the goods through an intermediary, a fence or some other organization, who is likely to take at least a 50% cut. The organs are also second-hand and not custom grown to the recipient, so let's assume they're worth about half the listed price for replacement body parts. On top of that, the street doc is probably also going to take a 50% cut for himself.

Eyes and Small Organs cost 7,500 for a new, clonal replacement. Half that, then half it again, then half it one more time and you've got all of 937 nuyen. Large Organs go for twice that. There are prices for Hands/Feet and Limbs, but since this isn't Dr. Frankenstein's castle I doubt anyone wants non-clonal versions of those, so they're ghoul-chow (figure maybe a fistful of nuyen each).

So, perhaps a more succint answer would be, "Unless you're a street-level runner getting paid in peanuts, it's not worth the damn effort, much less the risk."
hermit
Prices would go high up for rare tissue types, though. Then again, you'd propably be sent out to fetch special people for this anyway.
hahnsoo
The ghoul queen of Asamando pays 5 to 10 nuyen per kilo of metahuman flesh, according to Cyberpirates.

This is what Loose Alliances says about Tamanous and prices (in other words, not much):
QUOTE
Of course, itís always possible that runners might also decide to make a little profit by selling the corpses of their opponentsóthis is frowned on by polite society, but since when has politeness ever stopped teams from making a nuyen any way they can? In this case, Tamanous operatives are more than happy to oblige, provided that the runners can find them (they donít exactly advertise on street corners) and gain their trust, and provided that the bodies in question contain something the bodysnatchers want: viable organs and functioning cyberware being the top two. Cyberware generally brings a fraction of the cost of new íware (figure 10 percent of book value for common cyberware up to 20Ė25 percent for rare or custom stuff), while the prices paid for bodies vary widely based on many factors including condition, time of death, metatype, and desirability. Gamemasters are free to set prices for such things as dictated by their campaign needs.
Ed Simons
QUOTE (Lucifer)
A ring of organleggers operating out of a legitimate hospital or street clinic, on the other hand, isn't going to want to take bodies that are going to draw a lot of attention from Lone Star, the Mafia, or any given megacorp.


Iím rather worried if Lone Star, organized crime, or the megacorps are routinely opening up random people to see if they have internal organs acquired from someone else. Even if they did, how would they know it wasnít a legitimate transplant?

However, if you have whacked a recognizable member of any organized crime group, youíd best be sure the organleggers donít work for the same organized crime group.

QUOTE (Lucifer)
Eyes and Small Organs cost 7,500 for a new, clonal replacement.  Half that, then half it again, then half it one more time and you've got all of 937 nuyen.  Large Organs go for twice that.

So lets presume we use your numbers and that the organleggers only harvest the eyes, heart, lungs, and liver. Thatís two small and four large organs, which means 9735 nuyen per body using your numbers. And thereís a lot more organs than what Iíve listed.

Iíd also expect better money for live bodies Ė the organs will all be intact, and the organleggers can disassemble the victim at their leisure instead of trying to rush before the body deteriorates. For the choosy organlegger, gel rounds are your friend. biggrin.gif

QUOTE (Lucifer)
So, perhaps a more succint answer would be, "Unless you're a street-level runner getting paid in peanuts, it's not worth the damn effort, much less the risk."

If you already have a dead body, dealing with organleggers is one of the best ways of disposing of the body and you even get paid for it. I do find it a bit amusing, though, that some people have no problem with their PCs killing people for money, but then get squeamish about recycling the bodies.
hahnsoo
QUOTE (Ed Simons)
If you already have a dead body, dealing with organleggers is one of the best ways of disposing of the body and you even get paid for it. I do find it a bit amusing, though, that some people have no problem with their PCs killing people for money, but then get squeamish about recycling the bodies.

This is assuming that the shadowrunners have access to the contacts needed for organlegging. You are far more likely to attract attention to yourself blundering along in the organlegging business unless you have the appropriate contacts and connections at character generation. The average shadowrunner does not, and probably will get themselves in a LOT of trouble trying to do organleg without any knowledge of the business. It's certainly not something you can start up yourself ("Fresh organs for sale!").
Aku
QUOTE (Ed simmons)

Iím rather worried if Lone Star, organized crime, or the megacorps are routinely opening up random people to see if they have internal organs acquired from someone else. Even if they did, how would they know it wasnít a legitimate transplant?

However, if you have whacked a recognizable member of any organized crime group, youíd best be sure the organleggers donít work for the same organized crime group.


I think he's saying that the organ shop themselves would have an issue taking a body that they know is "hot" (no pun intended)

It's one thing to take a body of what amounts to a john doe in the news, whose onl mention in the papers may've been a death notice. But it's something entirely different if for a week straigh the leading story is about a missing person, whom runners just happen to bring to the legger to dispose of. I wouldnt take that body, if i was in that business.
hyzmarca
Most Shadowrunners know at least one street doc. Most street docs aren't exactly licensed to practice medicine. They can't just call up UNOS and have their patients put on a transplant list. They either have their own cloning facility to access to an orgenlegger. Heck, they probably sell some of their dead patients to organleggers.

Going by Lucifer's calculations, a runner can easily make 16,000-20,000 nuyen.gif per corpse. I'm going to be reasonable and half that again, down to nuyen.gif 8000.

Now, by killing one person a week the avarage runner could have a yearly income of nuyen.gif 416,000. That is enough to maintain a High lifestyle with nearly nuyen.gif 300,000 left over.

With three corpses a week, a runner is making enough to sustain a luxury lifestule with nuyen.gif 48,000 leftover for expenses.

The question is why run at all when you could live at the top of the wrold with no greater effort than going down to the Barrens and offing a few squatters every now and then? I'd say the same reason runners don't just steal a few cars every now and then, it makes for a boring game.


I'd rather sell people to the Ghoul Nation by the kilo. Average human groses 450-900 nuyen profit. A troll is worth nuyen.gif 1125-2250. A runner can still afford a high lifestyle by killing 3-6 people a week. Reasonably, i would be much safer and much more tempting than shadowrunning, but so is stealling cars.
NightRain
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
The question is why run at all when you could live at the top of the wrold with no greater effort than going down to the Barrens and offing a few squatters every now and then? I'd say the same reason runners don't just steal a few cars every now and then, it makes for a boring game.

That, and the fact that organleggers are unlikely to want the body of a squatter or derelict that has no organs worth harvesting. Years of malnutrition, drug and/or alcohol damage etc would dramatically reduce the worth of most squatters

You could of course make the money by instead killing and selling low level wage slaves, but then you're risking attention from people you don't want looking your way, which if nothing else, avoids the "boring game" problem smile.gif
hyzmarca
QUOTE (NightRain)
That, and the fact that organleggers are unlikely to want the body of a squatter or derelict that has no organs worth harvesting. Years of malnutrition, drug and/or alcohol damage etc would dramatically reduce the worth of most squatters

You could of course make the money by instead killing and selling low level wage slaves, but then you're risking attention from people you don't want looking your way, which if nothing else, avoids the "boring game" problem smile.gif

Reasonably, the organleggers are going to be selling to the SINless. People with SINs will get clonal replacements from reputable hospitals, not second-hand organs from unliscensed street docs. Beggers can't be chosers, as they say.

Besides, selling a failing organ just means repeat business.
Lucifer
QUOTE
Iím rather worried if Lone Star, organized crime, or the megacorps are routinely opening up random people to see if they have internal organs acquired from someone else.† Even if they did, how would they know it wasnít a legitimate transplant?


What Aku said. You're not going to find many organleggers willing to mess with the body of a Mafia Don's son-in-law or a Lone Star detective. To them, the organs aren't worth a dime more than some no-account wage slave and the chances (whatever they may be) of bringing down the thunder are just too much.

Of course, it varies by 'customer'. A street doc might not want to handle any body related to any organized crime syndicate, or even large local gangs like The Ancients. Tamanous, on the other hand, is already on enough shit-lists they probably aren't worried about taking the heat from most things.

If you're going into business as an organlegger in specific, then it's certainly got potential profit (or else organleggers wouldn't exist), but when I said it's not worth the effort I mostly meant in terms of a normal shadowrunning group. If you're getting paid 100,000 nuyen or more it just isn't in your best interests to risk the run by dragging some dead security guard's corpse out with you and trying to hawk it for a few thousand extra.

To say nothing for what it would do to your reputation. Shadowrun Companion (I believe that's the right book) has a good lists of Rules for Runners, and from the picture it paints it's not easy breaking into the 'professional' tier where the pay scales toward seven figures, even if you aren't playing a ghoul on the side.
hahnsoo
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
Most Shadowrunners know at least one street doc. Most street docs aren't exactly licensed to practice medicine. They can't just call up UNOS and have their patients put on a transplant list. They either have their own cloning facility to access to an orgenlegger. Heck, they probably sell some of their dead patients to organleggers.

So therefore, every shadowrunner is able to sell organs? I think that's a long leap of logic to make. I'm not trying to be an jerk here, but I think the argument whether or not a shadowrunner can sell organs relies on who the character knows. You have to have a shadowrunner that:
1) Has a street doc contact (big assumption there)
2) ... who deals in organs (is this something that people write when they flesh out their contacts at character creation?)
3) ... has the ready cash to buy said organs or has the appropriate contacts to sell organs
4) ... that the shadowrunner trusts enough to NOT be sold as spare parts themselves (lots of shadowrunners have wizzer cyberware that could sell for quite a bit)

In SR4 terms, a contact like that is a bit more expensive in BP than your standard 1/1 Street Doc. Now, if someone wrote down that they have this kind of "ghoulish" relationship with their street doc (the runner is one of the doc's trusted contacts to trade organs), then it's fair game. But I don't think you can make that kind of assumption just out of the box in character creation.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Lucifer @ Sep 25 2005, 06:23 AM)
Eyes and Small Organs cost 7,500 for a new, clonal replacement.  Half that, then half it again, then half it one more time and you've got all of 937 nuyen.  Large Organs go for twice that.  There are prices for Hands/Feet and Limbs, but since this isn't Dr. Frankenstein's castle I doubt anyone wants non-clonal versions of those, so they're ghoul-chow (figure maybe a fistful of nuyen each).

So, perhaps a more succint answer would be, "Unless you're a street-level runner getting paid in peanuts, it's not worth the damn effort, much less the risk."

In my opinion, your price calculation is batshit insane. More reasonable, in my opinion, is take the price in the book, halve it for non-clonal tissue, and then apply the standard fencing mods.

I also suspect that your estimation of who might want (or need) non-clonal limbs is way off.

~J
Trax
Selling hands to ghouls gives a whole new meaning to "finger food".
Grinder
rotfl.gif
hyzmarca
I wonder how much veal goes for in the ghoul markets? I'm re-reading Swift's A Modest Proposal and supplying veal to ghouls seems like a good business for a retiring runner to get into.
Lucifer
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
QUOTE (Lucifer @ Sep 25 2005, 06:23 AM)
Eyes and Small Organs cost 7,500 for a new, clonal replacement.† Half that, then half it again, then half it one more time and you've got all of 937 nuyen.† Large Organs go for twice that.† There are prices for Hands/Feet and Limbs, but since this isn't Dr. Frankenstein's castle I doubt anyone wants non-clonal versions of those, so they're ghoul-chow (figure maybe a fistful of nuyen each).

So, perhaps a more succint answer would be, "Unless you're a street-level runner getting paid in peanuts, it's not worth the damn effort, much less the risk."

In my opinion, your price calculation is batshit insane. More reasonable, in my opinion, is take the price in the book, halve it for non-clonal tissue, and then apply the standard fencing mods.

I also suspect that your estimation of who might want (or need) non-clonal limbs is way off.

~J

Maybe you could go straight to the fence if your character has the skill (Biotech 4+, probably some Medicine Knowledge as well) and equipment to successfully harvest the organs, as well as the means to store and transport them, and knows a fence who deals in organs.

Otherwise, middlemen expect money; if they're doing something that's illegal and potentially dangerous, they tend to expect most of the money. The street doc isn't going to carve up cadavres for you just because he loves you, he's going to expect at least half the profit.

Also, don't base your ideas of what organs and limbs should be worth or how desireable they would be on the modern market. There's a healthy market in clonal replacement parts for the people who have the big bucks to pay, the only people who are going to be using second-hand organs are the ones who can't afford the good stuff. There's also cyberware, which should reduce the resale value of many 'used' parts (although, in the case of limbs, the hilariously out-of-whack price makes it less on an issue).

That means the only people buying used parts are the poor, for whom the prices I quoted are fairly high when you consider: A) The person who sells it to them will sell it for more than they paid for it buying it from you and, B) The price doesn't include surgery or anti-rejection drugs (for life, if you're using someone else's meat...) or hospitalization during recovery or anything else.

If you really want people in your games grafting other people's arms and legs onto themselves, I guess that's your perogative. Hey, it worked for MGS2. As far as my games go, people who lose an arm or a leg either get a clonal replacement or get (more reasonable thanks to house rules) a cyberlimb. I just find the idea of Frankenstein-people silly unless they're cyberzombies or something.
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