My mage showed me this along with his interruption and I almost s**t my self. This spell turns your flesh to goo, but not your cyberware. They wonder why Sams geek the mage as quick as they can, with as much overkill as they can muster.

Example: Mage sees human street sam pumped up with headware and speedware. Uses Turn to Goo force 5 takes a few boxes of stun. Walks over and scoops 200,000 of cyberware out of the goo. Releases the spell and tries to stop laughing at the now blind, death , one armed man in front of him as he walks off to pawn his bag of cyberware.

I would like to know what moron thought this was a good idea. This really keeps the game balanced. Things like this need to stop popping up in the magic sections of shadowrun books so I can stop having arguments with mages. The magic sections of book should be the hardest looked at for unbalancing items. I can’t use the laws of physics to explain why this can’t be done. Common sense doesn’t apply to magic so it would really help if the editor would keep things like this out of the main book.

I guess that is the best way you could look at it. Let me follow up with what my group do after I explain to them they can't take the cyberware out of the goo.

I hit his Cybereyes, or cyber what ever, with a hamer. Goo is flexable and cyberware isn't right, and that barrier rating is just to harm the body right...

It is always amazing the way some spells can be used in a manner unlike they were neccesarily intended. I can remember the fun of stopping target vehicles by turning the driver into a Saint Bernard/Mastif/Poodle/Other appropriately sized dog long enough for them to crash then let the spell drop. With turn to goo I can see people getting turned to goo and then having their arms tied in knots then letting the spell drop.

Indeed - the very existence of this spell is a can of worms in implications.

Hey, he could also fly.

Heh. This one's actually been a part of cannon since 1st edition. Personally, I'm glad to see it back.

Actually, this is why it does not fit into SR3 or SR4 - tremendous shifts in magic paradigm.

For both the caster and the victim.

The same could be stated about Petrify, although they left that one in. Really, the two spells aren't that different in their net effect.

To each their own. I've never had a problem with them. Then again, most of my players tend to shy away from magic (except adepts)

Same goes for me, I also tend to be the resident "magic guy" of the group. Never used petrify but I do like turn to goo on occasion.

I'm pretty sure I never said you can't have Turn to Goo. Did I say you can't have Turn to Goo? Please point out where I said you can't have Turn to Goo.

Anyway, killing someone with Levitate takes finesse. I think increasing the drain on Turn to Goo and Petrify would help, plus I do agree that cyberware should be affected as well.

Calypso

Actually, you are incorrect. Read the spell. You cannot affect a person with a Body of 4 with anything less than a Force 4 Turn to Goo spell. The force has to equal or succeed the targets Body to work. So, the spell is not that powerful.

ah but this is SR4 not SR3. Most people wont have a body above 4. In SR3 Petrify was offensively useless for the most part because everyone ether:

a) had a body of 8 or more
b) was a mage and had shielding
c) wasn't worth the drain because they were a real smuck
d) had already rolled 1s on all their int dice and are still going 20 segments before you; blowing your head off

More of a peeve than a problem, in my eyes.

"Save or Die" eliminates much of the drama of a fight. They're entirely justified in their existence, mind you; it's just that they aren't as much fun when you're on the receiving end.

You: *BLAM* you're dead.
NPC: Aiee! I am slain! <crumple>
Your Team: Yay for our mage!

.... That's fun.

NPC: *BLAM* you're dead.
You: Uh, I.... uh. Well, crap. I guess I'll be in the kitchen, guys.
Your Team: Can we heal him or something?
GM: Nope, sorry. He's meat now.

.... That ain't.

But, if you're going to give an ability to the PCs, then in all fairness it needs to be available (in some form) to the NPCs. Goose & gander.

Direct damage attacks lend to more drama and potentially more fun. It's cool and heroic when your massively-injured character still manages to drop an opponent. It's satisfying for the healer to rush over and tend to your wounds so you can keep fighting. It's nice when the armor you spent so much money on literally saves your life.

Those are my objections to Save or Die as a holistic concept.

Now, SR4 does SoD better than average in that Turn to Goo is a sustained spell, meaning the baddie using it on you has given himself at least -2 penalties (plus Drain taken) for the luxury of incapacitating you... provided he guessed correctly what Body rating you had... provided you didn't spend Edge to negate his spell... and provided he didn't knock himself out in the attempt. Also, if a teammate cacks the offending mage, then he certainly won't be sustaining the spell any more.

So TtG is icky, but it's not gamebreaking any more than a sniper rifle is.

I saw that now. What a relief!

In the best scenario they would have made spell power comparable by force rating. That is, all spells of the same force rating would be as good, roughly. Spells with a fixed, non-scalable effect would have had a fixed force. That way people could easily know what spells were suitable for their level of power. It would be nearly as flexable as the current system, but much more forseeable. Sort of like a combination of the best parts of sr and d&d systems. That´s not what they did though. It´s still impossible to easily predict the ballance between the team spellcaster and the NPC´s I make for him to fight.

This is an area that I would have liked to see stream-lined.

What about the not affecting cyberware? I though it had been accepted that if you paid essence for it it was a part of your body and could not be targeted by magic by its self.

What kind of pile of goo is it?
Is the cyberware just floating on top waiting to be picked up?
Is the cyberware uninstalled by the spell?
Is the cyberware in the goo and protected by it?
If I have a cyberarm can use it to fire a gun at the mage that gooed me, and if so what are the vision mods for being a pile of goo?

That depends. Can they use their abilities while unconscious? Because Turn to Goo renders the target unconscious.

Calypso

Fear me, I am the unkillable technomancer that lives in the troll's camel back.

Moreover, if we're calling the cyberware non-living material, does that mean that the outer layer of skin, most hair, fingernail, etc. will not turn to goo? Does this become an overly-complicated but relatively effective debriding method (turn someone to goo, then scrape off everything left in the injured area)?

~J

...which would be an excellent use for that 'Judge Metahuman Physique' knowledge skill...