Dumpshock Forums

icharbezol

Sep 28 2003, 06:35 PM

OK, I have recently started an SR3 game.

The books I own are the SR3 book, CC, M&M, SR Comp, Matrix, MITS.

So my question is, nowhere in these books is the structure of a SIN given.
Anyone care to post some notes on the subject here please?

I saw in another topic that some of the info I need is in the SSG, such as what the numbers/letters mean, but do they take the same form of a modern SSN, i.e. 3 numbers-2 numbers-4 numbers? While I do plan on picking up this book, it won't be for some time (my kids' b-days and Christmas are all lumped in 2 months apart, no me-money for a while

)

I remember seeing this somewhere in an SR2 book that I don't have anymore and am kicking myself for getting rid of now.

Ancient History

Sep 28 2003, 07:07 PM

An example of a SIN number can be found in Dunkie's Will, which is handily located a few clicks away in my sig.

icharbezol

Sep 28 2003, 08:05 PM

Thanks for the note there...

Is there anything you can add going into more detail on the meanings of the numbers/letters in the SIN?

To tide me over till I actually can pick up the SSG...

DV8

Sep 28 2003, 08:24 PM

QUOTE

Is there anything you can add going into more detail on the meanings of the numbers/letters in the SIN?

Does it really matter? Why don't you think of something plausible to tide you over?

Ancient History

Sep 28 2003, 08:26 PM

Example SIN:

5T2G-8U6V-PK02

Well, a SIN contains your initials, year of birth and state of birth, among other things.

I would guess that either of the first 4-digit alpha numerics regards citizenship and parental data, and that the last four digits contain initials and birth year.

icharbezol

Sep 28 2003, 11:20 PM

QUOTE (DV8 @ Sep 28 2003, 03:24 PM)

Does it really matter? Why don't you think of something plausible to tide you over?

If I know there is a system already in place but don't have access to the book, and I thought maybe I could ask here of someone who might have the access I lack, then there is your answer DV8.

Yes, for my particular game, SINs do matter. Maybe they don't in your game, but then again I wasn't asking for particulars about your game either.

I wasn't asking for something plausible, I was asking for knowledge of something that is already in place. If you don't have the knowledge to share, then why waste your breath and this board space making comment?

Thanks so much for your helpful insight.

Thanks to A.H. for the real help!

EVLTIM

Sep 28 2003, 11:43 PM

QUOTE (icharbezol)

Snip

Chill dude .
Some people feel that may go against the spirit of suporting the company .
SR is a game , and it is some thing we all care about .
Some of the writers do freaquent here .

Make something up to hold you over for now .
Soka?

Adam

Sep 29 2003, 12:12 AM

There is no codified definition of how SINs are formed, although Sprawl Survival Guide contains the most recent information. DV8 is right; make up what you need to make SINs what you need them to be in your game.

icharbezol

Sep 29 2003, 12:13 AM

QUOTE (EVLTIM)

Make something up to hold you over for now .
Soka?

Sure, I understand...

I understand the whole point was I don't have to make something up if it's already there. I knew it was there, I just didn't know where or what it it was. A.H. pointed it out to me.

I don't really understand how it goes against the spirit of supporting the company or how anyone could actually logically support that argument; there's much more in the book than just that snippet, I'm sure, and I do intend on buying it once holidays have passed me by and I have more available funds. Just by passing that little bit on certainly doesn't make me think I have no further use for it.

I understand that Ancient History was willing to help someone out and all DV8 could be bothered to do is offer snide comment.

I am as chill as can be...

And thanks again to Ancient History.

Ancient History

Sep 29 2003, 12:24 AM

Now, now children. I've helped many and made more than my fair share of snide comments too. Deev's given me a bit of help before, and he's got the game's best interest at heart.

icharbezol

Sep 29 2003, 12:27 AM

I guess that's the only reason I've got my back up at all now...I asked a simple question which had a simple answer and someone chose to answer it with rudeness. DV8 may be "right" or he may be "wrong", but he didn't have to offer up comment if he had nothing worthwhile to say.

My question was pretty much answered by Ancient History, from the book and from what he gathered. I don't think anybody's bothering to read his post before they offer a reply. No need for offering the suggestion to "make it up" anymore. Thanks anyway, though...

Adam

Sep 29 2003, 12:31 AM

As one of the authors of the section of Sprawl Survival Guide dealing with SINS/Credsticks, I think I was offering a relevant comment on the contents of SSG, so you didn't pick it up expecting a detailed exposition on the structure of SINs and find out that it instead deals with things of a more political neature; dual citizenship SINs, SIN assignment to the SINless, etc.

Ancient History

Sep 29 2003, 12:34 AM

I liked that section. Thanks Adam-san <display_bow>

icharbezol

Sep 29 2003, 12:35 AM

I am going to pick up SSG when I have available money whatever the case, but thanks for letting me know on that score, Adam.

Ah, I just noticed your title of "Freelancer!" (much respect!)

I don't mean to seem an ass, but when people are an ass first I can sometimes grow to become a bigger one.

Abstruse

Sep 29 2003, 01:07 AM

SINs tend to be just like SS#s more or less -- just a bunch of random numbers (and in the case of a SIN, letters). All the information about a person you can get from a SIN isn't due to the nature of it (If the first batch of numbers starts with an A, they were born in 2040), but because of the fact that it's on your credstick and, when reading said credstick, the terminal can display all the information that's tied to that SIN -- Name, birthday, place of birth, residence(s), race, parents' names, criminal record, permits for weapons/cyber/spells/foci/etc, rank (if military), corporate affiliation (if any), citizenships (if more than one), etc. etc. etc.

Basically, pull 12 random numbers and letters out of your ass, throw two hyphens in, and stop whining

The Abstruse One

DV8

Sep 29 2003, 05:55 AM

icharbezol:
1. Chill out. My post was in no way offensive, and I think everyone here can attest to that.

2. I apologise if my post wasn't directly helpful. The next time someone asks this question (again - you might want to use the search function of these fora -), I'll direct them to some helpful mathematical algorithms so that they can make up their own SINs. Not that it would make much of a difference, even the simplest banking algorithm being way too complicated for practicle use in a Shadowrun game. People will make up something for themselves in the end anyway.

3. Please don't assume anything about my game. It's so childish. Yes, my game does use SINs. Quite a bit, actually. They are an important element of the Shadowrun universe and I use them as such. However, that doesn't mean that you need to have a structural algorithm handy that will give you enough obscurity and flexibility to issue out 6 billion people with credible SINs.

4. Chill out.

5. There are many different ways of creating SINs, that any creative individual - and I count you among them - can think up. SSNs, bank account numbers prefixed with "UCAS" or "CAS" or "HKFEZ" or whatever. Easy as pie. Unless you're going to have you players trying to break the algorithms themselves it really doesn't matter. Really.

5. Chill.

TinkerGnome

Sep 29 2003, 12:34 PM

Assuming the UCAS stuck to something similar to the SSN when the SINs were first introduced, I'd wager that the first few digits are a location code, the next few digits relate to your personal data, and the last few digits are a "serial number". While it's not difficult to fake a number if you know how to build one, a cop or other person who deals with SINs regularly will be able to spot a made up SIN quite often if you don't have some idea of what you're doing.

stevebugge

Feb 28 2006, 09:41 PM

QUOTE (Ancient History @ Sep 28 2003, 12:26 PM)

Example SIN:

5T2G-8U6V-PK02

Well, a SIN contains your initials, year of birth and state of birth, among other things.

I would guess that either of the first 4-digit alpha numerics regards citizenship and parental data, and that the last four digits contain initials and birth year.

Does this example SIN belong to anyone in particular?

[EDIT]Found it in the Will, not attached to any name or person[/EDIT]

Edward

Mar 1 2006, 05:21 AM

I recall seeing it once and deciding it could not be correct.

You sin is formed from your initials (2 chars), DOB (6 chars min), reference to place of issue (2 chars if they can be letters or numbers), a flag to indicate if its a criminal sin (1 char) and an arbitrary number to ensure its unique (min 2 chars if its going to reliably give enough options in a big city 3 would be better) this gives us 13 or 14 characters but the examples are only 12 characters long.

AH may have given you an example but it still doesn’t say how it was arrived at and I understood that was what you wanted to know.

May I ask why it matters in your game. We always just glossed over what your sin actually was, you ether didn’t have one you handed over your real one or you gave the sin for the fake ID of name --------. We never bothered to work out what the sins actually where.

Edward

John Campbell

Mar 1 2006, 07:42 AM

QUOTE (Edward)

I recall seeing it once and deciding it could not be correct.

You sin is formed from your initials (2 chars), DOB (6 chars min), reference to place of issue (2 chars if they can be letters or numbers), a flag to indicate if its a criminal sin (1 char) and an arbitrary number to ensure its unique (min 2 chars if its going to reliably give enough options in a big city 3 would be better) this gives us 13 or 14 characters but the examples are only 12 characters long.

Nah. The problem you're seeing is because you're wasting a lot of the available information space on non-information. You just need to pack it better. Remember, those aren't decimal digits, they're base 36... ten numerals, twenty-six letters. That means that you don't need two characters for the month and two for the day... you can represent them with one character each. Two characters for the year, in base 36, lets you cover a 1,296 year span. That gets your DOB down from six characters to four, while simultaneously bumping the covered range up from a century (probably not enough, especially with elves and dwarves around) to well over a millennium (Dunkie's SIN'll be interesting, but it'll work for most everyone else, for longer than the SIN system's likely to last).

The criminal flag is one bit, and a base 36 character will hold between five and six bits of information. Don't waste it all on a one-bit flag. Pack the criminal flag in with the gender flag and the metatype descriptor, and you've still got a few bits left for whatever. Race, maybe. Like the old-fashioned kind.

State of issue can be one character... the UCAS doesn't have as many as the US did. I wouldn't be surprised if they allocated two to allow room to grow, though. Two characters for the initials makes nine... which leaves three characters, 46656 possibilities, for the individual serial number. For each state, recycled every day. And in a pinch, you can repeat serial numbers as long as you don't repeat all the other encoded information as well... as long as you don't have more than 46656, say, non-criminal caucasian female humans with the initials JS born in the same state on the same day, you're good to go.

And that's just what you can do without breaking fairly easy human-readability. There's still a lot of slack space available if you really want to pack the data in.

Edward

Mar 1 2006, 10:59 AM

I guess you could pack it in like that.

I still don’t think your allocating enough space for place of birth. It’s a global system. Even if you only consider nation, cas, ucas, azetlan, each of the NAN all the messy stuff in Europe and Africa and each extraterritorial corp. one character will not be sufficient, you’ll need at least 2 and then your going to have problems if countries want a new code every time they have an insurrection and declare themselves to be a new country.

That only leaves 2 chars left for the serial number. It should be unique regardless of the criminal bit (nobody is born with a criminal bit but everybody can earn one) so we are limited to 1296 people born each day, in each country, with the same initials. In some of the larger countries this is less than I want although it would be a strange day when it was exuded.

I don’t think the SIN is formed based on race (although race data is attached to it). As I recall the timeline SINS where introduced pre UGE.

In order to pack in much more data you would need to use more than a simple Alfa numeric and that would be a bad idea as people need to be able to remember them.

Edward

Ryu

Mar 1 2006, 12:11 PM

The SIN has to reference a data set, not store the information.

So
-base: Issuing organisation
-dataset number
-checksum for errors

all alphanumerical.

Ed_209a

Mar 1 2006, 04:15 PM

With electronic IDs being so common, it wouldnt _have_ to be limited to a human-rememberable number. Even 1K of data is VERY easy to manage electronicly.

Regarding nonmetahumans with SINs, I would guess their DOB for SIN purposes would be defaulted to Rumyo's appearance date, or some other date marking the beginning of the 6th world. It wouldn't make a lot of sense to make the DOB field work back to 20kBC just for a handful of ancients. Though I doubt it would come up often...

"Yes, I am SINless. Come violate my civil rights. Please."
-Lofwyr

Edit: Ryu snuck his post in while I was typing, and he (she/it/they) has a good idea there. Little Johnny doesn't need to know his SIN, but does need to know his SIN Index.

SINdex? Neat term. I think I'll use it in my game.

stevebugge

Mar 1 2006, 04:50 PM

Aren't SIN numbers supposed to be a universal format, so that a SIN issued by the UCAS will have the same general structure as one issued by ARES or the CAS. Also I was under the impression that a criminal SIN would be obvious to a law enforcement officer just by looking, so it would have a human readable "flag" character, though this could be the issuing office code also (Hey says here your issuing office is Lone Star Correctional Contractors). Of course I agree that the SIN it's self probably doesn't contain all the data but simply allows an authorized user to pull data about the SIN Holder from various databases.

Platinum

Mar 1 2006, 06:15 PM

QUOTE (stevebugge)

Aren't SIN numbers supposed to be a universal format, so that a SIN issued by the UCAS will have the same general structure as one issued by ARES or the CAS. Also I was under the impression that a criminal SIN would be obvious to a law enforcement officer just by looking, so it would have a human readable "flag" character, though this could be the issuing office code also (Hey says here your issuing office is Lone Star Correctional Contractors). Of course I agree that the SIN it's self probably doesn't contain all the data but simply allows an authorized user to pull data about the SIN Holder from various databases.

Having a human readable flag just makes the system more open to fraud and tampering. It is harder to modify the information in a central system then it is to hack a credstick with your information. Also depending on what information is stored in that flag system, if something changes, then you have to reissure a new SIN number which is the true hassle. ie. the criminal flag.. you are telling me that criminals get a new sin assigned to them? What if I just keep using my old SIN instead?

mfb

Mar 1 2006, 06:25 PM

what i'd suggest is that your SIN--the 12-digit number--is simply the first 12 or so characters of your full SIN. it's long enough, with enough variation, that repeats aren't common--but they're also trivial, since the 12-digit SIN is basically just a nickname. it'd be like having two guys in your office named Bob.

stevebugge

Mar 7 2006, 10:22 PM

Having looked at the Canon SIN example I'm going to go with my own creation. I'll share it for you to use or not use as you want.

First Bloc XX is the ISO Country Code of the Issuing Office, you can find these online but you'll have to do a little updating to include Corps.

Second Bloc XXXX is the Office number in the issuing country

Third Bloc XXX Alpha SINner's Initials

Fourth Bloc XXXXXXX Julian Date of Issue, this is usually the date of birth, first 4 are the year, next 3 range from 001 to 365 (or 366 on a leap year)

Fifth bloc XX is a sequential number issued to avoid duplicate SIN's

Result is:

XX-XXXX-XXX-XXXXXXX-XX

An 18 Character Alphanumeric Monstrosity

Birdy

Mar 8 2006, 10:28 AM

Another option is a minor variant of the old military serial number used here in germany:

<8 digit date of birth>-<First letter of surname>-<n digit ID code>

i.e for a person named Kamhuber born 1. January 2006

01012006-K-123456

Since the first two parts come automatically for the user, it is quite easy to remember so it can be querried as a first test for identity (and commonly was).

Between the birthdate and the six digit number (Current birthrate is around 400.000/day) each person can be identified just by that string without the need for a country code etc.

Edward

Mar 8 2006, 10:35 AM

You want it to be possible for somebody to remember there your unique sin. If your house burns down and you run outside in your nightie and you have no cyber you want something to give the cop.

Edward

stevebugge

Mar 8 2006, 05:12 PM

QUOTE (Edward @ Mar 8 2006, 02:35 AM)

You want it to be possible for somebody to remember there your unique sin. If your house burns down and you run outside in your nightie and you have no cyber you want something to give the cop.

Edward

Not necessarily, they could have it in an embedded RFID tag, as mandated by the Corporate Court SIN Registry project.

That and I feel for the flavor of my game the gigantic SIN has a more ominous tone.

Edward

Mar 9 2006, 08:31 AM

QUOTE (stevebugge)

QUOTE (Edward @ Mar 8 2006, 02:35 AM)

You want it to be possible for somebody to remember there your unique sin. If your house burns down and you run outside in your nightie and you have no cyber you want something to give the cop.

Edward

Not necessarily, they could have it in an embedded RFID tag, as mandated by the Corporate Court SIN Registry project.

That and I feel for the flavor of my game the gigantic SIN has a more ominous tone.

They could have done that but they didn’t, at least not in SR3 where RFID didn’t even exist

Edward