Actually, it favors the attacker, because extreme results are more likely with smaller numbers of dice, and extreme low results happen more often than extreme high results, and if the caster gets no hits at all the spell fails utterly.
So overall it's a slight bonus to the caster to let them roll the full dice pool and then give bonus dice to the victims to attempt to resist. The spell is slightly more likely to do "average" damage - which means a slightly lower chance of doing moderately high damage, and a slightly lower chance of doing no damage.
And you know what? I don't care. Rolling dice piecewise until every possible array of modifiers has been covered for enemies that might be in spell areas is too much work, and I refuse to concern myself with it. The average doesn't move, that's good enough for me.
-Frank
Full Version: Am I missing something with Manaball?
I think that is a really good house rule for this type of situation. I'll more than likely adopt it for my games.
Oh, I agree. I'll be using it myself. I just wanted to be sure it wouldn't have too great an effect on the outcome of the test.
I plan to run it slightly differently.
If the mage casts at a group, he uses majority rules. If there's 4 gangers behind crates, and 1 not he has to roll against the one behind the crates to hit all five.
If there's 4 in the open and only one in cover then he tests as if they are all in the open.
This way seems to be fairly quick and gels with the other NPC rules about having the same stats, and threat ratings.
Now if the NPC's are prime runners, or other player characters then I'd probably make the mage make seperate tests for each target.
If the mage casts at a group, he uses majority rules. If there's 4 gangers behind crates, and 1 not he has to roll against the one behind the crates to hit all five.
If there's 4 in the open and only one in cover then he tests as if they are all in the open.
This way seems to be fairly quick and gels with the other NPC rules about having the same stats, and threat ratings.
Now if the NPC's are prime runners, or other player characters then I'd probably make the mage make seperate tests for each target.
| QUOTE (Fortune) | ||
I must have missed that in SR4 ... and in SR3 as well. That used to be the case back in SR2 (and 1), but even then it only applied to Direct Damage spells like Manaball, never with the Indirect spells like Fireball. |
For the record (and for what it's worth):
| QUOTE (SR4 p167 sidebar) |
| Sorcery involves the intuitive manipulation of the mana field by a magician, who shapes it in certain ways for certain effects. A good metaphor for this is to equate the mana field with the airwaves, making the use of Sorcery the transmission of certain radio signals that create different effects. To cast a spell, a magician channels mana through herself and transmits it on a specific frequency. The act of channeling is fatiguing to a magician, and causes drain. The signal that the magician creates is based on a spell formula that the magician has learned, determining its form and effect. The target of the spell is the radio signal receiver, and the signal is sent on the target’s frequency. When the signal is received, it channels mana through the target to create a specified effect (thus Direct Combat spells bypass armor, because they affect the target from within). All of this occurs on the same plane—physical or astral—as the magician and the target. Area-effect spells work roughly the same way, except that instead of transmitting a signal to one target, the caster sends the signal out on multiple frequencies corresponding with the targets within the area of effect. If there are targets within the area that the caster cannot see, they will not be affected, because the caster cannot synchronize with them to transmit the spell signal on a frequency they will receive. |
I personally plan on using different coloured dice. Take a good starting mage with a pool of 11 dice (5stat+4skill+2power focus). One enemy is out in the open with no penalties, two enemies have a -2 die penalty against them, and one enemy has a -4.
The mage rolls 7 white dice, 2 blue, and 2 purple. The white dice count against all targets, the blue count against the guy in teh open and teh two on -2, and the purple only count against the guy in the open.
No extra dice are rolled, probabilities are preserved, and all you need to do it are a bunch of dice, a few of which are different colours (which I think most SR gamers have). There was a nice little dice game out a while back called Stack which is where I got most of my dice from. It turned-out cheaper than buying individual dice and I have lots of colours and sets. Here's a link.
The mage rolls 7 white dice, 2 blue, and 2 purple. The white dice count against all targets, the blue count against the guy in teh open and teh two on -2, and the purple only count against the guy in the open.
No extra dice are rolled, probabilities are preserved, and all you need to do it are a bunch of dice, a few of which are different colours (which I think most SR gamers have). There was a nice little dice game out a while back called Stack which is where I got most of my dice from. It turned-out cheaper than buying individual dice and I have lots of colours and sets. Here's a link.
| QUOTE (Azralon) | ||||||
For the record (and for what it's worth):
|
So yes, for Mana AoE it very clear** if you can't see you can't affect because you are attempting a Direct transmission. Indirect spells (Physical) spells however might be another manner. For example are you suggesting that an person or perhaps an alarm buzzer in the AoE but unseen by a mage is not subject to the effects of Silence? That's a pretty serious implication (and dubious given the text there).
** Well actually it isn't for the indirect Illusion spells and Detection spells, because the spell can affect or detect someone that the caster is totally unaware of.
| QUOTE (Azralon) | ||||||
For the record (and for what it's worth):
|
That is true for an area effect spell which mana ball is.
However, fireball is an indirect area effect spell. There is only ONE target, and that target is the point in space that you are directing the fireball at.
Blakkie, it would depend on your target. The mage has to cast the spell on something. So, yes if he can't see the sensor it is not targetable.
What the mage needs to do is cast it himself, and the move into the range of the sensor. At that point, it's a physical illusion being sustained, and not an area affect spell being cast.
Remember though that the mage has to beat the threshold of the sensor which depending how high tech it is, could take 3, 4 or more successes.
As far as Silence goes, I can't even find the spell in my LE SR4. I found Stealth on p. 202, but that targets a single subject and reduces the noise they cause. Looks like the good old AOE silence got left behind.
| QUOTE (Hasaku @ Nov 15 2005, 07:12 PM) |
| As far as Silence goes, I can't even find the spell in my LE SR4. I found Stealth on p. 202, but that targets a single subject and reduces the noise they cause. Looks like the good old AOE silence got left behind. |
Silence is an area effect, and is on page 202. If it says "LOS (A)" that means that it is an area of effect.
It's under "Hush".
-Frank
That's what I get for looking up spells by what I think they should be called.
| QUOTE (Kleaner @ Nov 15 2005, 03:10 PM) |
| Blakkie, it would depend on your target. The mage has to cast the spell on something. So, yes if he can't see the sensor it is not targetable. What the mage needs to do is cast it himself, and the move into the range of the sensor. At that point, it's a physical illusion being sustained, and not an area affect spell being cast. |
No, i'm not talking about targeting the alarm directly (i didn't mention a sensor EDIT: unless you mean that to refer to the person's ears). The alarm is affected even though not seen as long as it is inside the AoE. Note that the spell can even affect what is heard by a sensor OUTSIDE the AoE, assuming the Threshhold you mention is met. It can even affect what is heard by an unseen sensor of the sound generated by an unseen alarm buzzer when both the sensor and the buzzer are outside the AOE. Although this typically needs other things that block the path around the AoE to do so with much effect, outside of using it to block Ultrasound sensor LOS.
The indirect nature of the spell allows you to affect things unseen by the mage.
P.S. I don't believe you need to target a specific object with Silence as it is an AoE spell that you can specify acting on a space.
I wouldn't think you could target a point in space, since it's not an indirect spell. You still have to cast it on something....
While I suppose that could be the ceiling, floor or wall most of those are highly processed materials and would have higher target thresholds.
While I suppose that could be the ceiling, floor or wall most of those are highly processed materials and would have higher target thresholds.
air is something.
| QUOTE (Kleaner @ Nov 16 2005, 08:21 AM) |
| I wouldn't think you could target a point in space, since it's not an indirect spell. You still have to cast it on something.... While I suppose that could be the ceiling, floor or wall most of those are highly processed materials and would have higher target thresholds. |
Page 173, under "Area Spells", specifically states that some spells can target areas or points in space. It's fairly obvious that the area illusion spells, which Silence is, fall under that. Even if you want to center the effect on a door, the door itself is not the target and does not get an object resistance check to overcome the spell in some way. Once the spell is up and running (sustained), any sensor (living or otherwise) must make a check to resist the illusion of silence and perceive any noise generated in or passing through the area of effect.
In the absence of a rule specifically stating that area illusions must be targeted at a being or object, the most logical interpretation is that they do not. It's definitely an "indirect" spell, since it creates an effect in an area and does not have designated targets. That this effect is "dampened sound" instead of "roaring flames of Hades" is irrelevant to how the area is chosen.
edit: On a side note, I'm very uncomfortable with it being an illusion spell, since the description sounds as though it actually dampens the noise instead of fooling you into thinking so. If it's merely an illusion, how it able to affect people outside the radius who attempt to hear sounds passing through it?
illusions are less like D&D illusions and more like manipulating sound and light, IMO (or at least, the physical illusions are actually manipulating sound and light).
mana illusions are where you alter people's senses directly.
mana illusions are where you alter people's senses directly.
I'll buy it for the physical illusions, but how does a mana illusion fool someone outside its range?
| QUOTE |
| illusions are less like D&D illusions and more like manipulating sound and light, IMO |
They should make a catagory for that. They could call it, I dunno, manipulation spells.
manipulation is already amazing. they already took away a number of powers from it (specifically, those elemental combat spells... plus about 10 more elemental spells, at least, iirc when they get around to putting them into print for SR4)
my personal theory about affecting people outside the area is that it is like radiation... it simply radiates a mental illusion of the person not being there. basically it sends out an unlimited range 'radio signal' that says 'ignore me, i'm not here' (to use invisibility as an example) or, 'hey look, it's Lofwyr. he looks hungry.' as another example.
or at least, that's how i understand it to work.
my personal theory about affecting people outside the area is that it is like radiation... it simply radiates a mental illusion of the person not being there. basically it sends out an unlimited range 'radio signal' that says 'ignore me, i'm not here' (to use invisibility as an example) or, 'hey look, it's Lofwyr. he looks hungry.' as another example.
or at least, that's how i understand it to work.
| QUOTE (Jaid @ Nov 16 2005, 06:17 PM) |
| mana illusions are where you alter people's senses directly. |
Maybe. Going by the text the in the sidebars on page 166 and 167 there is also the possibility that the spellcaster creates create mana ripples/eddies/disturbances at the site of the target. These ripples radiate outward from there on their own, and can influence the living being outside the AoE. In other, more ironic words the effective range can define an area larger than the Area of Effect.
| QUOTE (Kleaner @ Nov 16 2005, 09:21 AM) |
| You still have to cast it on something.... |
Says who? (EDIT: Although i guess Hasaku did already put it in clearer, more verbose way.)
| QUOTE (Hasaku) |
| They should make a catagory for that. They could call it, I dunno, manipulation spells. |
This is for your own good. Really.
*loads Shotgun of Sanity*
*BLAM*
*BLAM*
They just got done pairing down Manipulation, complete with sub-schools, from the 10-ton Elephant it become in MitS.
To be fair, the only reason Manipulation had become a 10-ton elephant in MitS, was that it was too lean in SR2, having been pared down from being large in SR1.
It's a problem in defining a category of magic by saying "it changes things" because that's what magic does. I expect this pendulum to swing a few more times before it finally settles down.
It's a problem in defining a category of magic by saying "it changes things" because that's what magic does. I expect this pendulum to swing a few more times before it finally settles down.
I'd prefer the Control Manipulations as Illusions myself. That lets the rest of Manipulation go hog wild without stomping on too many toes.
-Frank
-Frank
| QUOTE (Kleaner) |
| I plan to run it slightly differently. If the mage casts at a group, he uses majority rules. If there's 4 gangers behind crates, and 1 not he has to roll against the one behind the crates to hit all five. If there's 4 in the open and only one in cover then he tests as if they are all in the open. This way seems to be fairly quick and gels with the other NPC rules about having the same stats, and threat ratings. Now if the NPC's are prime runners, or other player characters then I'd probably make the mage make seperate tests for each target. |
The way I have worked this into the rules in my campaign is that instead of the caster losing dice and having to figure out how each target works, I will instead use the cover and lighting modifiers as bonus dice for the targets. This way I keep the rolls streamlined.
| QUOTE (RunnerPaul @ Nov 18 2005, 01:00 AM) |
| I expect this pendulum to swing a few more times before it finally settles down. |
I'm thinking it looks like a perpetual motion machine, myself.
I do like that the elemental attack spells got relocated to Combat. That's their core function, after all. Also it prevents Raccoon shamans from saying "-1 to Combat but +2 to Manipulation? Lightning Bolt, here I come!"
Manipulation is a catch-all category by nature, so can easily get ballooned up. It's obvious when something is a Combat, Detection, or Health spell. Illusion and Manipulation cover everything else, with the core distinction being "Manipulation does real stuff, Illusion does fake stuff."
Doing fake stuff can easily be squished down into a few flexible spells without much worry over game balance. Doing real stuff, however, can rapidly turn into a lot of paperwork.
| QUOTE (Azralon @ Nov 18 2005, 08:28 AM) |
| Manipulation is a catch-all category by nature, so can easily get ballooned up. It's obvious when something is a Combat, Detection, or Health spell. Illusion and Manipulation cover everything else, with the core distinction being "Manipulation does real stuff, Illusion does fake stuff." Doing fake stuff can easily be squished down into a few flexible spells without much worry over game balance. Doing real stuff, however, can rapidly turn into a lot of paperwork. |
I like the distinction, I just think Silence fell on the wrong side thereof. Reducing or eliminating the apparent volume of sounds passing through or originating in the AoE, to an observer outside said AoE, strikes me as "doing real stuff." I'd be happy if they either dropped the "sounds passing through" mechanic and kept it in Illusion, or left it as is and moved it to Manipulation.
edit: Ok, just had a thought. Maybe the effect of area Illusion spells is supposed to be practically limitless. The damping effect (for Silence) is confined an area (Force) meters in radius, but can be experienced by any observer of that area. Otherwise, spells like Entertainment would require everyone to gather into a relatively small space to experience the show, which doesn't jibe with the way the spell is described. Also, Invisibility has to work no matter how far the observer is from the subject, so I guess I've just been interpreting "area" differently than the designers intended. Can of worms closed.
Hey, another can! Improved Invisibility "creates an actual warping of light around the subject..." Why can the subject see? How does this effect lasers?
Put down the Shotgun, Blakkie...
| QUOTE |
| Hell, I might just rename the spell "Forked Manabolt" to be clear. |
Now I want to ask my GM to let me cast "Stun Fork" instead of "Stunball." It's way cooler sounding. "FEAR MY FORK!" or "I'm gonna FORK YOU UP!" Now if only I can work out the effect of "Mana Spoon" I'll be set.
| QUOTE (Feshy) | ||
Now I want to ask my GM to let me cast "Stun Fork" instead of "Stunball." It's way cooler sounding. "FEAR MY FORK!" or "I'm gonna FORK YOU UP!" Now if only I can work out the effect of "Mana Spoon" I'll be set. |
Cuddles with the target, affects living beings only. Inflicts Force + net hits physical emasculation damage.
my vote goes for a heart digging spoon.
of course, a spork would be infinitely superior you know
i mean, you just can't compete with the combined advantages of a spoon *and* a fork.
of course, a spork would be infinitely superior you know
i mean, you just can't compete with the combined advantages of a spoon *and* a fork.
I see you've played Knifey-Spoony before...
"Why a spoon, cousin? Why not an axe?"
Because it's dull, you twit! It'll hurt more!
SPOOOOOOOOON!!!
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