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JongWK
Link

So yeah, for the people who had asked before, the other cities included in Runner Havens are Cape Town, Caracas, Hamburg, and Istanbul (for those who hadn't, the major chapters are Seattle and Hong Kong).
otaku mike
And as I said elsewhere, the maps will have scales, both in km and miles.
maeel
can anybody tell me what 'upcoming' is supposed to mean.... will we be able to buy those books for chrismas...?..? i'd like that...
Grinder
Depends on which christmas you mean...
Oracle
Those images are not the final covers, are they? That would be really disappointing.

Hamburg is an interesting setting. ^^
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Oracle)
Hamburg is an interesting setting. ^^

Yeah, it was the predecessor of the new LA. sarcastic.gif
Elve
None of the pics is a new cover... Just recycled stuff...
Adam
QUOTE (Oracle)
Those images are not the final covers, are they? That would be really disappointing.

No, they're just quick mocks, done at the last minute since I didn't much like the /last/ set of quick mocks I did at the last minute for those books. smile.gif
Oracle
QUOTE (Elve @ Nov 21 2005, 12:19 PM)
None of the pics is a new cover.

That's why I asked.

Thanks Adam! Possibly you should add a comment, that these images are placeholders...
Abschalten
Sweet, sweet. I'm looking forward to all four of those. Thanks for the heads up, Adam.
Gothic Rose
QUOTE
This first core setting book


Sounds like there may be more city books?
Aku
hey, the on the run placehold is actually outa the SR3 BBB... i recognize it... "a fixer introduces some hot new tech" i beleive is th caption
Slacker
QUOTE (Gothic Rose)
QUOTE
This first core setting book


Sounds like there may be more city books?

They've already said there's going to be more than one core setting book. Can't remember what was said, but I'm thinking it was like 3 or 4 core setting books.
bclements
Corp Zones was the tentative title mentioned in one of the 'casts on the front page
MYST1C
QUOTE (Oracle)
Hamburg is an interesting setting. ^^

The German Runner Havens will have an expanded Hamburg chapter...
Fortune
QUOTE (bclements)
Corp Zones was the tentative title mentioned in one of the 'casts on the front page

Yep, and the other one (3 were mentioned) is supposed to deal with messed up places, like what's left of Chicago.
FlakJacket
Feral Cities I think the name was.
Kleaner
Street magic - November 28, 2005
GM screen - January 16, 2006
On the run - January 30, 2006
Runner havens - January 30, 2006

At least that's what Amazon.com says.
Slacker
Come on people, how many times does it need to be said never look to Amazon for actual release dates, particularly for role-playing material. They make shit up (or at least that is how it seems most of the time).

Also, they invariably get roleplaying material 3-4 weeks after your FLGS would.
Aku
aww, come on slacker, be nice, the poor kid hasn't even been here a month... prolly hasn't even heard about the ally spirit yet....
Slacker
Quit procrastinating and get back to work on the Vehicle Garage, Aku. Why are you even in the SR4 section? You don't have the book and aren't going to get it anytime soon.

Ok enough harrassing you for now.

You are right, I should cut him some slack. I hadn't even looked at when he joined Dumpshock.

Kleaner, as I stated earlier, Amazon is notoriously bad about having correct release dates and (like traditional bookstores, such as Barnes and Noble, and Borders) gets role-playing materail 3-4 weeks after gaming stores.
A very extreme example of their horrible release dates is a book I just recently received from them that was ordered 19 months ago! Obviously, that kind of thing has a lot to with the book being delayed for one reason or another. But at the time the book was ordered and several times in the intervening 19 months until it arrived, their site was listing it as "In stock" and shipping within 24 hours, and yet the book was nowhere near being released. The book even arrived more than a week after it could already be found in stores.
FlakJacket
QUOTE (Slacker)
They make shit up (or at least that is how it seems most of the time).

They don't, intentionally, make the dates up. The problem with Amazon is that to get your book in they apparently demand the details on it a ridiculously long time in advance which means it's often an educated guesstimate never mind the possibilities of setbacks or delays later in development and writing.

On on the Havens book itself, I swear someone must have been reading my posts in the past what cities would you like to see covered threads 'cause aside from Hamburg that's pretty much what I wanted. Consider me pleased. biggrin.gif
Zen Shooter01
"Upcoming". ohplease.gif

But Runner Havens does look cool. Istambul? Not Constantinople?
Gothic Rose
QUOTE (Zen Shooter01)
"Upcoming". ohplease.gif

But Runner Havens does look cool. Istambul? Not Constantinople?

No, you can't go back to Constantinople.
SL James
Nope. Didn't see this coming from miles away in the distance.
Wireknight
QUOTE (FlakJacket)
They don't, intentionally, make the dates up. The problem with Amazon is that to get your book in they apparently demand the details on it a ridiculously long time in advance which means it's often an educated guesstimate never mind the possibilities of setbacks or delays later in development and writing.

In a truly awesome display of foresight, possibly bordering on precognition, Shadowrun's line developers had been doing this for years before the internet boom and Amazon's rise to prominence!
Grinder
QUOTE (M$T1C)
The German Runner Havens will have an expanded Hamburg chapter...

The english version won't? Oh my god, i'm thinking of badly written german setup, written by would-be-anarchists sarcastic.gif
If the usual FanPro guys will write up Hamburg, it will become a messy setting. Propaply an anarchists heaven or something similar shitty.
MYST1C
QUOTE (Grinder)
QUOTE (M$T1C @ Nov 21 2005, 05:25 PM)
The German Runner Havens will have an expanded Hamburg chapter...

The english version won't?

The English book will contain Hamburg, too - as one of the four 2,000-words-each lesser city description.
Which, as told in the German FP forum, is barely enough to introduce someone not familiar with the older AGS books to the city and would be completely dissatisfying to someone whos already knows Germany.
Hence, the chapter will be expanded ( to the same size as Seattle and Hong Kong, I suppose).
Grinder
Hoepfully they'll take another route and not the same as in B:ADL... I don't like this nice anarchist-style. It's too romantic/naive, it's unrealistic and it's poorly written. Wish hermit would still be around here. biggrin.gif
MYST1C
On various occasions FanPro D has talked about a new line of books called "Hot Spots" - supposedly sourcebooks detailing a single city and/or specific local region not to the extend of the Seattle Sourcebook but with enough information to grasp the local flavor and use it as a campaign setting.
Possible Hot Spots for Germany named so far are Frankfurt and Munich.

Does anybody have more information about this? It doesn't seem to a project of only the German crew so which other Hot Spots around the world are planned?
Elve
They announced (german only) Jotspot books of Munich ("6-sells") and Sox (dunno the name) check my page when its back up again smile.gif its written there 3rd news from the top or something wink.gif
Adam
QUOTE (Wireknight)
In a truly awesome display of foresight, possibly bordering on precognition, Shadowrun's line developers had been doing this for years before the internet boom and Amazon's rise to prominence!

The game industry truly did pioneer this technique, with Amazon "borrowed" without so much as a free license to use their one-click patent!
Superbum
I really wish Fanpro wouldn't pull that regional favortism bullshit. I want that "expanded" hamburg material, too. Why the hell should I be forced to get a german copy just to get it?

They should give us all the same material in both languages.
Vector
That is very frustrating. Any chance they'll ever change and be nice to those of us who can't read German?
TheScrivener
Fact is, though, the language barrier isn't as permeable as all that, even for a company like FanPro which got its start doing German editions. Translation takes time, and teams of talented writers. It's one thing to write game text, being consistent, creative, and interesting. It's another to take someone else's in another language, translate it, and KEEP it consistent, creative, and interesting.
Fortune
They seem to be able to manage to translate all of the English books into German (however poorly), yet can't manage to do the same with even a quarter of the German material.
otaku mike
To set the record straight (as best as it can be with the info I have), it was decided since the beginning to have only 2 major cities in the book, plus 3 to 5 additional cities covered in less details. If there is an expanded Hamburg chapter in the German translation of that book, it's because Fanpro D wanted it that way, in their long tradition to provide additional material (generally AGS-oriented) in their SR translations. It's not Rob who decided to "cut" Hamburg long-version out of Runner Havens to keep it for the German audience only.
Superbum
Then we need a Fanpro E or something similiar to provide us with bonus material. Besides, what I said earlier wasn't an attack on Rob.
Gothic Rose
I concur on the subject of wanting Hamburg. Just because I live in Michigan doesn't mean I dislike Germany!
MYST1C
QUOTE (Fortune)
yet can't manage to do the same with even a quarter of the German material.

In FanPro's eyes (most of) the German stuff is considered not interesting enough for players outside of Germany so it's kept out of the English books.
They learned a lesson from the weak sales of the Germany Sourcebook (produced over ten years ago but still in stock AFAIK).

But they keep the AGS as their "pet setting" (although it does face quite some critizism in Germany) and include information where it fits.

(Plus, the German bonus material is meant as a reason to buy the German books instead of the English ones and to somewhat apologize for weak translations, editing errors, delays, etc.
It boils down to:
You want the book quickly and for a lower price? English.
You're willing to wait some months and pay a bit more but get additional stuff? German.)
SL James
My biggest concern is that there will be canon setting info out there which the many people in the larger, original consumer base for SR cannot read, and it sometimes ends up being a big deal setting thing like, oh, say... Schockwellen.
Synner
Let's make a few things clear then:

- Runner Havens is the first of a new series of "themed" location books focused not on countries but on major sprawls. Each of these books - for which the tentative themes of Corp Zones, Feral Cities and Mystic Places were mentioned at GenCon - will feature two distinct core settings. These core settings will be visited in some detail, though probably not to the degree a Seattle SB did. The two core settings are followed by 4-5 other similar sprawls treated in much lesser detail, but included for variety and to expand playing possibilities. These are to be addressed in necessarily less detail and writeups will focus on their unique character and intrigues, showcasing the diversity of settings that can potentially fall under the single heading "runner haven".

- For Runner Havens the core settings chosen were Seattle and Hong Kong. The backup settings picked were Cape Town, Caracas, Hamburg and Istanbul. These were picked because they profile a wide spectrum of play styles, atmosphere and local plots.

- Following the decision to include Hamburg in the line up of Runner Havens, FanPro D decided to expand the relevant section to a full chapter for the German edition of the book, thus providing German fans with a core "Runner Haven" of their own. This add-on is something FanPro D has been doing for most of SR3 releases and specifically targets the German market. However, as has been the case in recent projects, FanPro D has developed the material in tandem with the English version of Runner Havens, and in fact the person in charge of both the shorter profile in the English version and coordinating the expanded German version is the same.

- It is our intent to thread future plots into the core settings, and also promote higher mobility between the various core locations. This is not to say that the remaining settings won't be visited and touched upon, but that the focus will be the core ones.

- If people really want to see the full German chapter, I'm sure they won't mind taking the time to mail FanPro US and saying as much. While in the past there have been practical limitations and commercial viability issues to translating such material, recent developments may open up new options. Take the time to mail FanPro and you might be surprised-after all we're not talking about a 500+ page paperback.

- Most German-language add-ons represent German specific material which, though potentially interesting to the hardcore collector, has never been particularly relevant to the US fanbase - in fact, as German DSFers will likely admit a lot of it has been over-the-top in the past. This, coupled with the lackluster interest in the Germany SB, and more to the point the costs of translating potentially commercially unviable material make publication of German material (which is also normally developed after the English book is published) a risk FanPro US hasn't considered worth it. Consider also, that back in the day, FASA never thought of Proteus as a big enough "setting deal" to include the material introduced by FanPro D over a handful of sourcebooks and one full campaign. It was never featured in a major metaplot in US material, was never been detailed in depth, was purposefully kept a mystery. It was one of dozens of unrefined plots in American canon, whereas in Germany it had been throughly detailed. When Shockwaves came round FanPro US was faced with the decision of retroactively unnecessarily forcing 8 years of background material down the US fan's throat and introduce a campaign that played out almost entirely in European sprawls, knowing that for all the flash and bang of Shockwaves to the average runner Proteus doesn't change one bit.

- That being said, German material that hasn't required elaborate retoractive explanations and major recaps has appeared in American canon (notably the changes to the "German" greats in DotSW, several new developments in the AGS in SoE, and groups in SOTA64 and Loose Alliances). Even "shockwaves" from the German campaign and setting material have been noted in US products. Such cooperation will continue for the foreseeable future as American and German developers and freelancers work hand in hand on upcoming books.
Fortune
QUOTE (M$T1C)
In FanPro's eyes (most of) the German stuff is considered not interesting enough for players outside of Germany so it's kept out of the English books.

But that explanation doesn't cover releases like Shockwaves, which include world-changing events that only trickle down as an afterthought to the English (only) speaking Shadowrun consumer.

It doesn't stop there. Take the new German-only World Almanac (or whatever it's called) as another example. Why is this general-purpose book being released only in German? What makes FanPro think that English speaking people wouldn't pay top dollar for this kind of book. Especially if they weren't fortunate enough to have played the game and collected all the books from the beginning in 1989.

It might be true that English speaking people don't really care for a fleshed-out Hamburg, but even then the problem is that the German-only releases aren't only limited to German-specific material.

I have every Shadowrun book ever released in English, and kind of resent the fact that I am still barred from some details of canon due to locale and/or language barriers.
Gothic Rose
QUOTE (Fortune)
QUOTE (M$T1C @ Nov 23 2005, 04:18 AM)
In FanPro's eyes (most of) the German stuff is considered not interesting enough for players outside of Germany so it's kept out of the English books.

But that explanation doesn't cover releases like Shockwaves, which include world-changing events that only trickle down as an afterthought to the English (only) speaking Shadowrun consumer.

It doesn't stop there. Take the new German-only World Almanac (or whatever it's called) as another example. Why is this general-purpose book being released only in German? What makes FanPro think that English speaking people wouldn't pay top dollar for this kind of book. Especially if they weren't fortunate enough to have played the game and collected all the books from the beginning in 1989.

It might be true that English speaking people don't really care for a fleshed-out Hamburg, but even then the problem is that the German-only releases aren't only limited to German-specific material.

I have every Shadowrun book ever released in English, and kind of resent the fact that I am still barred from some details of canon due to locale and/or language barriers.

It does seem a bit...off...to me. I mean, we're all fans of Shadowrun. We all love it. Why can't we all be playing in the same Shadowrun world? Why do Germans have to have their German SR stuff, and everyone else have their English SR stuff?

Doesn't make sense, nosirree. Not at all.
fistandantilus4.0
QUOTE (M$T1C)
On various occasions FanPro D has talked about a new line of books called "Hot Spots" - supposedly sourcebooks detailing a single city and/or specific local region not to the extend of the Seattle Sourcebook but with enough information to grasp the local flavor and use it as a campaign setting.
Possible Hot Spots for Germany named so far are Frankfurt and Munich.

Does anybody have more information about this? It doesn't seem to a project of only the German crew so which other Hot Spots around the world are planned?

that would be neat if they acutally followed through on that.any conjecture on the chance of that acutally happening?
Oracle
QUOTE (Gothic Rose)
It does seem a bit...off...to me. I mean, we're all fans of Shadowrun. We all love it. Why can't we all be playing in the same Shadowrun world? Why do Germans have to have their German SR stuff, and everyone else have their English SR stuff?

Wasn't there a France sourcebook published only in french?

Most of the very detailed background for the ADL isn't very interesting for readers from other countries. In fact most of it isn't interesting even for me. In my opinion a lot of the material is not far from being absolutely unbelievable.

I nearly died a terrible death from laughing, when I read that the Bundestag is now situated at the island Wilhelmsstein in the middle of the Steinhuder Meer. The Steinhuder Meer is a lake. It is not very large. The Wilhelmsstein is a very small artificial island in the middle of it. There is a small castle on it. But the Reichstag in Berlin covers an area much larger than the island.

And the stuff above is a good example for the Germany-only background in general.
MYST1C
QUOTE (Fortune)
But that explanation doesn't cover releases like Shockwaves, which include world-changing events that only trickle down as an afterthought to the English (only) speaking Shadowrun consumer.

Synner explained it quite well one post above yours.

QUOTE
It doesn't stop there. Take the new German-only World Almanac (or whatever it's called) as another example. Why is this general-purpose book being released only in German? What makes FanPro think that English speaking people wouldn't pay top dollar for this kind of book. Especially if they weren't fortunate enough to have played the game and collected all the books from the beginning in 1989.

As I tried to explain in the 6. Welt thread, that book was written by German authors for German fans.
I don't doubt that much of it could be translated to English without problems but there is German-specific material (publication history, translation problems, background differences, stuff from German conventions) that would IMHO have to be either rewritten or cut entirely.

So, as I said before - spread the word about this book. Start a petition to show Rob there're enough potential buyers worth doing a translation.
I don't know the chances of success but if you really want this book you should try.
(Different solution: Learn German - not that hard for someone speaking English.)
MYST1C
QUOTE (Oracle)
Wasn't there a France sourcebook published only in french?


Local sourcebooks (with more or less differences to English canon) were produced in
- France
- Germany
- Hungary
- Japan
Synner
Note that to complicate matters further, no FanPro D material (or indeed any of international licensees) prior to the FanPro acquisition of the SR license is considered canon by FASA (and as we learned the hard way in SoE quite a few things are unique and incompatible with American canon). DidS2 still suffers somewhat from this problem (Lofwyr fought Nachtwho to the death over Frankfurt and why? Proteus owns a chunk of Berlin? King who is missing?) - but all material thereafter has been cross-developed to one point or another with American material - and in fact several German freelancers have regularly contributed to American releases starting with DotSW.
Grinder
QUOTE (Oracle)
In my opinion a lot of the material is not far from being absolutely unbelievable.

That's why i'm for a complete overhaul of the german setting.
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