So much anger. Okay, here's what I did.

The Metahuman Variants Table seems to start out a type with no adjustments at -10 BP. Each "free" attribue point adds 10 BP, each reduced cap subtracts 10. A single type of augmented vision is free, +2 Body against pathogens and disease is worth 5, and together +1 Reach and +1 Armor is worth 20 (probably 10 each).

From this, I figured that a generic bonus is worth 5 BP, and a combat-worthy one is worth 10 BP (incidentally, that's roughly twice the cost for non-combat and combat skill boosts, respectively, for adepts).

Application of this reversed engineered system to the Metatype Attributes Table on page 73 is left to the reader; I've still got to get ready for work. If you find a flaw in my work, please post.

Anyway, we move to page 292, where the "statistics given are for a standard human ghoul" (Boyle et al. 292). Nine net points of attributes gives us 90 points. I assigned the abilities as follows:

Dual Natured (+5) -- Not that big a deal, only slightly more than sight
Magic Rating 1 (no implicit Magician, Adept, or Mystic Adept) (+10) -- attribute point
Improved Hearing (+0) -- Minor freebie
Olifactory Boost (+0) -- ditto
Claws (DV: STR/2+1, AP: 0) (+15) -- combat bonus, twice the adept power cost
Allergy (Sunlight, Mild) (-10) -- from the qualities (Boyle et al. 81)
Dietary Requirement (Metahuman Flesh) (-10) -- it's hard to get at the Stuffer Shack
Blind (-5) -- Not that big a deal with the combination of free astral perception and boosted hearing and smell

For a combined total of ... er ... 85 BP; odd, since my first calculation was for 115. Okay, what have we learned today?

1. Aaron can't do math in his head.
2. You actually can reverse engineer the Metatype Attributes Table, which suggests that the game's designers knew what they were doing and were not just making stuff up.

Any questions? Make sure to ask; this information will be on the final exam.

That is NOT an edge. Remember, he/she is constantly seeing the astral plane and is dual natured and cannot walk through wards, can be targetted by mages on the astral, attacked by spirits etc etc. Hell, he can even be swamped by a horde of watchers pummeling him to death.

The magic point is included in the dual nature so that can be ignored.

Eeh, minor freebie. if theese are natural versions of cyberware then they work on tha maximum level which means that it is +3 to hearing tests (If i remember correctly) and +6 to olfactory tests.

Ok, its a combat bonus, but the dude has frigging claws, its not like he looks like joe average, he's got claws.

And the blindness is in the eyes only so he can replace them with cyber.

Now, we have a few qualities left, in this case we convert from shadowrun 3.

Hunted (-15) There’s a bounty on your head.
Essence loss: (?) You begin with 1 point less essence.
Body odor (-5): Your habit of eating human flesh could give you away

I thought that, too, but then I remembered that adepts have to pay for it, so I thought I'd toss it in as a minor power. Until there's canon for it, though, I can run a game where ghouls cost 85 points, and FrankTrollman can run a game where ghouls cost 30 points, and TBRMInsanity can run a game where ghouls can't be played by PCs (actually, I'm with him for my own game, but whatever).

If you like. I'm not sure I'd put "dual-natured is free" and "Magic point is free" in the same argument, though. Maybe ten points for the Magic Rating and add the dual-natured in as a side-effect.

Okay, maybe five points for the both, then? Really, compared to other point-bearing advantages, being able to hear and smell isn't huge.

See my note about culture later on.

Missed that. Call it -10?

Besides the fact that body odor is easily remedied (especially if you have a +6 to olifactory tests), this is mostly a social thing. I thought about adding BP for being reviled, but then I remembered that the BP was entirely about capability, and not about social standing. Trolls and Orks do not get extra BP for being downtrodden, and for good reason: they're the status quo when they go to the Ork Underground, or Oakland (Orkland). Ditto for ghouls and Chicago, or a number of other really slummy areas.

I wouldn't give BP for having a price on one's head. I would, though, offer a Karma reward bonus for it, when it comes up. It's really more a role-playing thing than a game mechanic.

But again, it's your game.

I'm sure the bounty is much lower.

Actually, no they don't seem to do that at all. From the Reach, Armor, and Disease Tolerance, you are extrapolating from one data point, which means your analysis is worthless. Furthermore, you're ignoring the single most important modifier on the Dwarf and Troll - the fact that they have non-standard movement rates. That aint small.

So then we look at the 3 remaining races that could form a pattern by your analytical schema:

Humans (fit your setup)
Orks (fit your setup, though they are the only ones with a reduced attribute cap, so they are also an outlier)
Elves (do not fit your setup at all)

3 Data points, one of them is rather questionable (Orks), and another the actual value is 50% greater than your predicted value. Which means - your BP cost prediction isn't statistically significant. Claiming that you can form a system from that is laughable.

And that's not surprising, because in reality there is no system. Elves cost more than Orks because Agility and Charisma are crazy good and people really want to play Elves. After actual playtesting, it was found that Elves could cost 30 BP and people would still play them quite happily. Each race is assigned a point value based on playtesting, not on the results of a complex mathematical rubric.

Like most of your analysis, this is completely jacked up. Adepts don't pay for being Dual Natured, they pay for the ability to astrally perceive. Astral Perception is a power because you can turn it on when you want to assense for clues and turn it off when you go into space. Dual Natured is a drawback because you are at all times equally vulnerable to astral and physical threats.

When a pile of spirits show up, the Adept can turn his Astral Perception off, and then the spirits have to Materialize and the whole mundane team can jump them (and the spirit only gets 2 IPs per turn). The Ghoul just has to sit there and take it on the astral while all the spirits get 3 IPs and smack him down.

Being Dual Natured was, the last time it was written up, a 5 point flaw on a 100 point scale - meaning that it's the equivalent of like a 20 or 25 point flaw in SR4.

Ghoul Town was bacteria bombed by Ares, so Ghouls can find a homeland only in Africa. But regardless, we aren't talking about "You're an Ork, some people don't like your character", we're talking about "You're a Ghoul, it is legally encouraged for vigilantes to assassinate you in much of the civilized world". That's... fundamentally different.

Same with the claws. We aren't talking about a character having bonus killiing hands and critical strike. The whole point of that attack mode (and the reason it costs power points) is that it is subtle and hard to detect. We're talking about a guy with non-retractable cybernetic hand razors. Remember those things that are so stupid that SR4 doesn't even have prices for them anymore? Claws on your hands is a penalty. It means that you have to sneak an obvious (and not terribly effective) weapon through every check point you ever go through.

Yes, a Ghoul can get by with just an increased lifestyle cost by using effective cleansers every day and purchasing clonal human body parts and so on. But that's still a drawback. Ghouls take serious penalties whenever they aren't living a High lifestyle, and that's hard to do under the SR4 rules. You can't just dismiss crippling lifestyle requirements and an open bounty on your character's head as a roleplaying choice.

-Frank

Actually, it's two. Would be out of bounds to point out that Mr. Trollman's analysis appears to be based on the fact that he doesn't believe there is any system behind the table, and that sounds like one data point as well?

Yeah, I wondered about that, too. I'd meant to add something about that, and propose that maybe it had to do with either the lack of aging or just plain "coolness factor," but I needed to go to work and forgot. Well, at least I did some analysis.

You asked me to supply supporting documentation or admit to pointless posturing, and I've heard that turn-about is fair play. Do you have any supporting documentation for your position? Please refrain from arguments purporting that there is no pattern without substantiation; a cryptanalyst does not proclaim, "There is no message!" simply because she has not yet discerned any pattern. Did you hear Mr. Boyle or another designer say such a thing?

Actually, while I'm at it, I'm curious to hear your justification on how all nine net attribute points (bonus points, if you prefer) only cost 30 BP. An adept can't even do that. Initially, I was going to just let it slide as personal preference in house rules, but since you asked, so will I.

Where was I ...? Ah, yes.

On the street, it's just another cool body mod. In polite company, a pair of gloves covers weapons that are undetectable by various metal detectors and chemical sniffers. Okay, custom gloves, if you must.

Okay, now you're just trolling. No pun intended. =)

Yes.

-Frank

It is in Shadows of North America. I think that it is about right.

I thought I'd read somewhere that a ghoul-rights group had gotten the UCAS to repeal the bounty.

See, this is the thing that's pissing me off. The first two posts of this thread are actually answers to that exact question by different people. The rest of the thread is a discussion about whether those extrapolations from the standard rules are reasonable and whether I'm an asshole. What more do you want? Do you just want people to post ideas until someone posts a BP/abilities combination that satisfies you? Why not just write it yourself in that case?

-Frank

Actually, I don't think there's been much discussion about the second point - we've all pretty much reached our conclusions about that already. (Not that you should care, we're pretty much all asses around here.)

I do tend to agree pretty much with your analysis this time, though, and think your lower bp numbers are probably pretty close to what I'd use. Haven't decided whether I agree with you on dis-allowing meta-ghouls or not, but would agree that the attribute stacking could get pretty sick.

This one applies to you, Frank