Remember also, we're not talking about going out and buying all new security guys and new toys for them to use.
When these guys aren't doing something, they're still around, sucking up payroll, and if they're an elite unit (like the Red Samurai) they're constantly training, which sucks up a load of resources on it's own when you have the toys these guys are used to using. In other words, they're spending lots of money anyways!
On top of that, these guys want to be in the field. If they're using up resources anyways, you may as well get some use out of them. On top of that, no training keeps you sharper than actual operations in the field.
Full Version: Makin' Dat Nuyen
I also had a mage, he was'nt very succesful at running.
now his name explains all.
BigPimpN
now his name explains all.
BigPimpN
Right now the players I am GMing are all brand new to the Shadowrun universe. They are just getting to the point where they negotiate and collect/hawk captured equipment.
One of the PCs currently owes two people in exchange for infromation, so for one he is working it off at a meatpuppet parlour as a door man for one night and he owes another guy a "favour".
I am running a dirtier type of game set in 2069 (SR4) where boosting cars would net them less than doing a 4,200¥ (700¥ each) run every four to five days. Right now they are making good money doing runs worth 1,500¥ per PC every week or so, so they are not going to risk added attention from Th' Star over boosting cars.
One of the PCs currently owes two people in exchange for infromation, so for one he is working it off at a meatpuppet parlour as a door man for one night and he owes another guy a "favour".
I am running a dirtier type of game set in 2069 (SR4) where boosting cars would net them less than doing a 4,200¥ (700¥ each) run every four to five days. Right now they are making good money doing runs worth 1,500¥ per PC every week or so, so they are not going to risk added attention from Th' Star over boosting cars.
My players usually make about 10-20k each per run, when they actually shadowrun. Usually they do a run, then float on the cash while pursuing their own wacky misadventures until they need more money. Then they run again.
I jokingly call them my "Endless Summer" group.
I jokingly call them my "Endless Summer" group.
| QUOTE |
| I once played with a GM who had a rule that no matter what we did on a run or how well did we always got at least 1 Public. (Private and Public were reputation ratings from SR 2. Private was good Public was bad.) Sometimes we got a lot more if we really screwed up. We asked why one time and his logic was that no matter how good you are you always miss something. |
Yes, but the rules are reality in Shadowrun. If there is no astral signature, no ballistic evidence, no identifiable faces, then you won't get caught. If you miss a little, then if you're that competent, the opposition will probably miss a lot more. Since this is a pencil-and-paper role-playing game that is based on very hard-set numbers that codify even one's friendliness with contacts, it seems rather insane to have something major be so arbitrary.
And what the hell's "Endless Summer?"
Endless Summer is a surf movie.
Not to be confused with End of Summer, which is Nippon softcore pornography. That's a hillarious video store mishap, and should be avoided at all costs.
-Frank
Not to be confused with End of Summer, which is Nippon softcore pornography. That's a hillarious video store mishap, and should be avoided at all costs.
-Frank
Says you....
But back to the topic at hand: FrostyNSO, you and a few others have referred to "just shadowrunning" or words to that effect. I'm curious, what constitutes shadowrunning and what doesn't count?
For example, most of us would agree that boosting a car on the street isn't a shadowrun, although some "shadowruners" do it. What if Mr. Johnson hires you to boost a particular car? A prototype car, or a competitor's limo.
The standard shadowrun is often a datasteal. Okay, what if the data is only in some shmoe's head? What if the easiest way to get it is to grab him and scare it out?
I guess we're getting back into that "what's your code" issue, but it's interesting. At what point would the pro-shadowrunning characters say "No, I'm not doing that. It's not a shadowrun."?
But back to the topic at hand: FrostyNSO, you and a few others have referred to "just shadowrunning" or words to that effect. I'm curious, what constitutes shadowrunning and what doesn't count?
For example, most of us would agree that boosting a car on the street isn't a shadowrun, although some "shadowruners" do it. What if Mr. Johnson hires you to boost a particular car? A prototype car, or a competitor's limo.
The standard shadowrun is often a datasteal. Okay, what if the data is only in some shmoe's head? What if the easiest way to get it is to grab him and scare it out?
I guess we're getting back into that "what's your code" issue, but it's interesting. At what point would the pro-shadowrunning characters say "No, I'm not doing that. It's not a shadowrun."?
I think the generally accepted definition of a Shadowrun is a mercenary mission undertaken on behaf of someone who promises you gains for your work, financial or materiel.
Speaking of mercanary groups, i should try to get the group doing some milatary crap.
| QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Dec 27 2005, 02:42 AM) |
| Endless Summer is a surf movie. Not to be confused with End of Summer, which is Nippon softcore pornography. That's a hillarious video store mishap, and should be avoided at all costs. -Frank |
Could have worked as a Point Break reference, too...
The whole "going after the employers thing" is, in any case, the best option. It gets you revenge and gains you a real economic edge. That way, you succeed on both an economic and level.
If you know who the employers are...which is why they hired the Shadowrunners.
For the whole "jacking cars isn't shadowrunning" argument, the thing is, runners in cyberpunk don't just steal from corporations to make money. They do whatever is necessary to get ahead and make money. Molly Millions from Neuromancer, perhaps the iconic runner, worked for a puppet parlor before Neuromancer and worked as an independent "businesswoman" and casino shareholder afterwards. Shadowrunning is a very narrow profession, especially in the year 2070, when you could make money doing practically anything.
I say encourage the runners to find whatever ways to make money they can. Just remember that shadowrunning is supposed to be profitable; people don't risk a bullet in their head because it pays badly.
I say encourage the runners to find whatever ways to make money they can. Just remember that shadowrunning is supposed to be profitable; people don't risk a bullet in their head because it pays badly.
| QUOTE (emo samurai) |
| the rules are reality in Shadowrun. If there is no astral signature, no ballistic evidence, no identifiable faces, then you won't get caught. If you miss a little, then if you're that competent, the opposition will probably miss a lot more. Since this is a pencil-and-paper role-playing game that is based on very hard-set numbers that codify even one's friendliness with contacts, it seems rather insane to have something major be so arbitrary. |
I have to disagree with you on this point. For me I think the rules are there to provide a guideline rather then an unbreakable, infallible universal standard that if you follow X then Y will always result. I think there are two schools of thought that are against this even in game.
1. The "fudge" dice rolls for story sake rule. How many times have you opened an adventure to find a really hard scenario that could result in a death of all your PCs? I can think of at least three Shadowrun adventures off the top of my head that involve the group going up against a pissed Dragon. Usually right in the Debugging part the caption usually reads "If your players are losing just because of bad rolls then fudge the rolls for the opposition" or something to that effect.
2. Metagame Thinking. All of us have done it at one time or another. A player uses his own knowledge of the game to influence what his character does even though there is no possible way his character would know that. For example if your character has no skill with Magic whatsoever then he's not going to suggest a magical solution to any problem. His mind just doesn't work that way. If that's the way you want it to work then he should have some magic skills, even if they are background. Rules-Lawyers are notorious for this kind of thing. Anyone can crunch numbers, and IMHO if that is what you want to do then you should play a MMORPG. Yes rules have their place but a pen and paper is a Role-Playing Game for a reason.
Look I'm not telling you that if you don't play this way you're wrong. You bought the books, you spend time playing. Have fun! Do what you want. For my group we like heavy realism most of the time. With the public thing we just assume that the more Shadowruns you do the more people are going to know who you are. The whole movie HEAT is an example of this. Really 1 Public a run isn't bad especially if you do a run that nets you 12 or higher Private. Basically for us it signifies that you can't do this job forever and stay in the shadows. Eventually cops, bad fixers, and (yikes!) the media is going to know your street name and what you do. Now it may take fifteen years and four hundred Shadowruns but eventually it's going to come out, and if you haven't pissed off someone badass in the Shadows by that point then either your runs are too small-time to notice or you’re the God of Shadowrunners. Or you have a weak-ass GM…
| QUOTE (Lazarus) |
| 1. The "fudge" dice rolls for story sake rule. How many times have you opened an adventure to find a really hard scenario that could result in a death of all your PCs? I can think of at least three Shadowrun adventures off the top of my head that involve the group going up against a pissed Dragon. Usually right in the Debugging part the caption usually reads "If your players are losing just because of bad rolls then fudge the rolls for the opposition" or something to that effect. |
This is an example of how adventures are often written by people who don't know how to GM.
~J
| QUOTE (Lazarus) |
| 1. The "fudge" dice rolls for story sake rule. How many times have you opened an adventure to find a really hard scenario that could result in a death of all your PCs? I can think of at least three Shadowrun adventures off the top of my head that involve the group going up against a pissed Dragon. Usually right in the Debugging part the caption usually reads "If your players are losing just because of bad rolls then fudge the rolls for the opposition" or something to that effect. |
Dragons aren't really all that tough. You just need to open up on them on full auto with an assault rifle with lots of recoil comp and APDS ammo.
Somehow the image, some of the Dumpshockers have of dragons, differs very much from mine. In my game a dragon wouldn't get into a situation where anyone had the possibility of opining up on him with full auto APDS. At least not without having a massive barrier spell, armor spell and half a dozen force 12 elementals on his side. Dragons, especially Great Dragons are not to be killed by SC. It's some kind of a mantra... 
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) | ||
This is an example of how adventures are often written by people who don't know how to GM. ~J |
+1
Or, what's more, people who don't know how to write adventures.
| QUOTE (Oracle) |
| Somehow the image, some of the Dumpshockers have of dragons, differs very much from mine. In my game a dragon wouldn't get into a situation where anyone had the possibility of opining up on him with full auto APDS. At least not without having a massive barrier spell, armor spell and half a dozen force 12 elementals on his side. Dragons, especially Great Dragons are not to be killed by SC. It's some kind of a mantra... |
That's why the Great Dragons have zillions of Karma Pool, and powers that make you reroll your successes. And in most cases, Force 12 elementals will cause Deadly Physical Drain to the dragon that summoned it.
Actually I think it might be a little less than that...Great Dragons have really high charisma.
I think. But I'm not sure.
I think. But I'm not sure.
Making the Big Bucks???
Tip 1. Keep a Good Rep, no harming children, elderly folk, or innocent bystanders, Gel Round them with knockout drugs if you have to but don't kill anyone who's not trying to directly kill you or isn't getting paid make the attempt.
"Nah Mr. J, I didn't mean to waste that class of preschoolers out for thier feild trip, I was just layin down cover fire, what, Whaddaya mean it got on the news???... hold on, there's someone at the door..."
Tip 2. Instead of trying to do everything exceptionally well, pick one thing and be fraking awesome at it. "... I may not be the fastest, but I'm drek sure accurate, and that's what you really want, you want to make sure it's done right the first time, and I think that's worth twice what you just offered me."
Tip 3. If you want to act like it, fine, but don't be blind, deaf, or dumb as to what you are doing, if it's delivering a package find out what that package is, if it's DataSteal, decrypt it and find out what it is, if it's wetwork, find out who it is. No matter how much you've been offered to do one thing, somebody is bound to offer more for you to do another. "I'm sure the concerns that you are representing would love to get what's on that chip back since I've taken a good hard look at it. But I'm thinking you'd pay even more not to let it land in somebody elses hands say RenRak maybe. You offered 4K
so that's where the bidding starts, and if yer thinking of cutting me out of the equation, do it and that chips contents will be broadcast on every Trideo channel within the hour."
Tip 4. Biz is Biz right, so learn how, when, where to say no. Learn how much force to use when saying no. Learn why to say no. And if you do say yes, Remember, nobody forced you to do it, it was your choice.
Tip 1. Keep a Good Rep, no harming children, elderly folk, or innocent bystanders, Gel Round them with knockout drugs if you have to but don't kill anyone who's not trying to directly kill you or isn't getting paid make the attempt.
"Nah Mr. J, I didn't mean to waste that class of preschoolers out for thier feild trip, I was just layin down cover fire, what, Whaddaya mean it got on the news???... hold on, there's someone at the door..."
Tip 2. Instead of trying to do everything exceptionally well, pick one thing and be fraking awesome at it. "... I may not be the fastest, but I'm drek sure accurate, and that's what you really want, you want to make sure it's done right the first time, and I think that's worth twice what you just offered me."
Tip 3. If you want to act like it, fine, but don't be blind, deaf, or dumb as to what you are doing, if it's delivering a package find out what that package is, if it's DataSteal, decrypt it and find out what it is, if it's wetwork, find out who it is. No matter how much you've been offered to do one thing, somebody is bound to offer more for you to do another. "I'm sure the concerns that you are representing would love to get what's on that chip back since I've taken a good hard look at it. But I'm thinking you'd pay even more not to let it land in somebody elses hands say RenRak maybe. You offered 4K
so that's where the bidding starts, and if yer thinking of cutting me out of the equation, do it and that chips contents will be broadcast on every Trideo channel within the hour."Tip 4. Biz is Biz right, so learn how, when, where to say no. Learn how much force to use when saying no. Learn why to say no. And if you do say yes, Remember, nobody forced you to do it, it was your choice.
Looked good. Except for the part where #3 started spinning out of control...
Yeah. #3's a good way to get yourself killed.
And #1 -- like a lot of people's "The Code" posts -- is a little ideallistic. An "innocent bystander" very quickly turns into a "witness" a lot more often than people seem to like to think. Trying to only kill the people you're being paid to kill, or those point a gun at you, is a good idea. Absolutely, hands down, never ever killing anyone else? That's a liability.
And #1 -- like a lot of people's "The Code" posts -- is a little ideallistic. An "innocent bystander" very quickly turns into a "witness" a lot more often than people seem to like to think. Trying to only kill the people you're being paid to kill, or those point a gun at you, is a good idea. Absolutely, hands down, never ever killing anyone else? That's a liability.
Again, Katklaw uses innocent bystanders for target practice, though he tries to keep it against people he thinks won't be missed.
As for revenge:
"Killing the pig who killed my comrade" is a reflex that will be present in any (para)military unit worth it's payment. Even more so if the killing was extremly gruesome and/or the dead ended up as "spare parts". Sometimes you can denie your troops the revenge but if you do that permanently, moral suffers.
Has to do a lot with close bounds and having been through a few battles together.
Just read up on the Partisan wars throughout history, those where ugly even without political based massacers thrown in. From both sides!
So occasionally the "Red Samurai" (or a quality unit) will! come after the PC.
MET2000 and similar merc outfits will be the most likely to do that if you kill some of their personell outside of battle or after a surrender. After all "You can't go round killing people! You need a licence for that!"(HardWired)
"Killing the pig who killed my comrade" is a reflex that will be present in any (para)military unit worth it's payment. Even more so if the killing was extremly gruesome and/or the dead ended up as "spare parts". Sometimes you can denie your troops the revenge but if you do that permanently, moral suffers.
Has to do a lot with close bounds and having been through a few battles together.
Just read up on the Partisan wars throughout history, those where ugly even without political based massacers thrown in. From both sides!
So occasionally the "Red Samurai" (or a quality unit) will! come after the PC.
MET2000 and similar merc outfits will be the most likely to do that if you kill some of their personell outside of battle or after a surrender. After all "You can't go round killing people! You need a licence for that!"(HardWired)
| QUOTE (nick012000) |
| Dragons aren't really all that tough. You just need to open up on them on full auto with an assault rifle with lots of recoil comp and APDS ammo. |
So what do you do against a dragon who has Anti-Bullet Barrier on him?
I had a group that decided on an interesting way to make some extra money. They robbed real food warehouses, and stole crops from farms. They then setup soup kitchens in the barrens as fronts to fence the stuff to the wealthier underground elements. Their customers were mob bosses, rich fixers, and the like. After a few incidents the soup kitchens were declared neutral ground by quite a few warring factions.
They made some good contacts from it too.
They made some good contacts from it too.
We once made fake I.D's.
Thanks to the Sprawl Guide.
Thanks to the Sprawl Guide.
| QUOTE (Dog) |
| I guess we're getting back into that "what's your code" issue, but it's interesting. At what point would the pro-shadowrunning characters say "No, I'm not doing that. It's not a shadowrun."? |
No character I've created would refuse a chance to make money because 'it wasn't a Shadowrun'. There are plenty of good reasons to not do something - the pay's too low, the chance of getting dead's too high, etc. - but 'it's not a Shadowrun' is not one of them.
| QUOTE (Critias) |
| An "innocent bystander" very quickly turns into a "witness" a lot more often than people seem to like to think. |
Your average (meta)human witness will usually only manage to get your gender and metahumanity right.
Worry about the cameras.
And I'm not talking about cameras inside people's skulls.
From the movie HEAT, the I Ching of Shadowrunning:
VINCENT HANNA: When it escalated into a murder one beef for all of them, they popped guard number 3. Why? Because what difference does it make? Why leave a living witness?
VINCENT HANNA: When it escalated into a murder one beef for all of them, they popped guard number 3. Why? Because what difference does it make? Why leave a living witness?
Yeah heat is good, i havent seen a crime drama as good as that one.
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