The Ares Predator IV is a Heavy Pistol.
Under Gas-Vent System on page 311, it says that:
Full Version: Ares Predator IV and Gas-vent Systems
| QUOTE |
Gas-vent systems can be built into machine pistols, SMGs, assault rifles, and machine guns. |
The Ares Predator isn't a machine pistols, SMGs,
assault rifles, or machine guns, so can it not have a Gas-Vent System?
Or am I over thinking this.
Gas-vent systems go on the barrel mount.
A Heavy Pistol has a barrel mount.
Is that good enough logic to say that the Ares Predator IV can have a Gas-Vent System?
Thyme
Gas vent is designed to counterbalance the recoil with a vent of gas in the other direction 
or something 
So a low-ROF Pistol like the Predator doesn't need one, as it would have minimal effect.
or something So a low-ROF Pistol like the Predator doesn't need one, as it would have minimal effect.
| QUOTE (Bullet Raven) |
| Gas vent is designed to counterbalance the recoil with a vent of gas in the other direction or something So a low-ROF Pistol like the Predator doesn't need one, as it would have minimal effect. |
So anyway to cancel the recoil of shooting the Predator multiple times?
One of the reasons I ask, is the thought of dual wielding Predators.
With a simple action, you can shoot both guns, you just have to spilt your dice pool.
With two simple actions, you can shoot 4 times.
I was trying to see if there was a way to not have to worry about recoil with dual wielding Predators.
Thyme...
Now now Bullet Raven, don't try using RL logic to excuse handguns not getting gas vents, it won't work.
I was going to say I wouldn't know what the actual rules about this are since there are no SR4's in Finnish stores yet, but it seems a few have finally landed in Helsinki.
I was going to say I wouldn't know what the actual rules about this are since there are no SR4's in Finnish stores yet, but it seems a few have finally landed in Helsinki.
oh.... I see 
No, not really... there aren't any suitable accessories and like you say, pistols can't have gas vent. Seems pretty clear in the writeup.
Sorry dude, you're going to have to take the recoil It's only -1 on the second shot for each gun though, so in the grand scheme of things you're not at a huge loss (I'm aware you'll be splitting your pool)
From reading the rules though, does it become -2 on each gun -1 for it's own and -1 for the other weapon's recoil on the second shots?
HMMMMM!!!!
No, not really... there aren't any suitable accessories and like you say, pistols can't have gas vent. Seems pretty clear in the writeup.
Sorry dude, you're going to have to take the recoil
It's only -1 on the second shot for each gun though, so in the grand scheme of things you're not at a huge loss (I'm aware you'll be splitting your pool)From reading the rules though, does it become -2 on each gun -1 for it's own and -1 for the other weapon's recoil on the second shots?
HMMMMM!!!!
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator @ Mar 7 2006, 11:11 AM) |
| Now now Bullet Raven, don't try using RL logic to excuse handguns not getting gas vents, it won't work. I was going to say I wouldn't know what the actual rules about this are since there are no SR4's in Finnish stores yet, but it seems a few have finally landed in Helsinki. |
woah, how cool.
I confess I know nearly nothing about weapons in general so I wasn't aware it was even a real system
Edit: and in that case, I would ask your GM, showing evidence that it exists for the Glock
| QUOTE (Bullet Raven @ Mar 7 2006, 10:55 AM) |
| Gas vent is designed to counterbalance the recoil with a vent of gas in the other direction or something So a low-ROF Pistol like the Predator doesn't need one, as it would have minimal effect. |
No.
A gas vent/ported barrel bleeds off gas to make the recoil more manageable.
Check out this vid of a IPSC open division racegun that has a "gas vent":
http://www.ericgrauffel.com/video/video_el...elpresident.htm
A pistol is as low ROF as any semi-auto weapon: As fast as you can pull the trigger.
IRL a gas vent/ported barrel makes even the first shot more accurate because of the more manageable recoil.
SR doesn´t have much to do with reality, the fact that you don´t need subsonic ammo for suppressors kind of sets the bar.
| QUOTE (Bullet Raven) |
| oh.... I see No, not really... there aren't any suitable accessories and like you say, pistols can't have gas vent. Seems pretty clear in the writeup. Sorry dude, you're going to have to take the recoil It's only -1 on the second shot for each gun though, so in the grand scheme of things you're not at a huge loss (I'm aware you'll be splitting your pool)From reading the rules though, does it become -2 on each gun -1 for it's own and -1 for the other weapon's recoil on the second shots? HMMMMM!!!! |
I figured that each shoot would give a -1.
First Shoot First Gun: No Recoil
First Shoot Second Gun: -1
Second Shoot First Gun: -2
Second Shoot Second Gun: -3
That is the way I read it, I could be wrong.
Page 142
| QUOTE |
| Recoil Weapons that fire more than one round in an Action Phase suffer from an escalating recoil modifier as the rounds leave the weapon. Semi-automatic weapons that fire a second shot receive a –1 dice pool modifier for the second shot only. |
| QUOTE |
| Semi -Automatic Mode Guns that fire in semi-automatic mode can be fired twice in the same Action Phase. Each shot requires a Simple Action and a separate attack test. The first shot is unmodified; the second shot, if fired in that same Action Phase, takes a –1 recoil dice pool modifier. Recoil compensation can cancel out this modifier. |
Of Course the Character I was making is a Gun Bunny Adept.
Magic Rating 6.
High Agility (One under Max for Race), Max Pistol with Spec, Improved Reflexes, Improved Ability and High Edge.
| QUOTE (Bullet Raven) |
| Edit: and in that case, I would ask your GM, showing evidence that it exists for the Glock |
I am the GM.
Or I will be.
I know that when the other Shadowrun GM ran Second Ed SR, one of the players was dual wielding pistols and taken 4 shoots per Init Phase.
Thyme....
SR used to have several ways to reduce pistol recoil that are as yet unavailable in SR4. Until then, consider dual wielding machine pistols or SMGs with appropriate recoil comp.
| QUOTE (Thyme Lost @ Mar 7 2006, 12:44 PM) |
| I figured that each shoot would give a -1. First Shoot First Gun: No Recoil First Shoot Second Gun: -1 Second Shoot First Gun: -2 Second Shoot Second Gun: -3 |
When using two firearms at the same time (like two pistols here), you add up the recoil for both and apply it to each of them, but you do track recoil seperately.
First Initiative Pass:
First Simple Action: Shoot both pistols, first shot each, no recoil.
Second Simple Action: Shoot both pistols, second shot each, one recoil each, -2 dice each.
Second Initiative Pass:
First Simple Action: Shoot both pistols, first shot each, no recoil.
Second Simple Action: Shoot both pistols, second shot each, one recoil each, -2 dice each.
(...)
Bye
Thanee
| QUOTE (Page 141/142) |
| Attacker Using a Second Firearm Two-gun attacks also negate any dice pool bonuses from smartlinks or laser sights. Additionally, any uncompensated recoil modifiers applicable to one weapon also apply to the other weapon. |
The recoil of one gun adds to the recoil on the other.
Thyme...
Edit: Nevermind, I miss read your post....
| QUOTE (Thanee) | ||
When using two firearms at the same time (like two pistols here), you add up the recoil for both and apply it to each of them, but you do track recoil seperately. First Initiative Pass: First Simple Action: Shoot both pistols, first shot each, no recoil. Second Simple Action: Shoot both pistols, second shot each, one recoil each, -2 dice each. Second Initiative Pass: First Simple Action: Shoot both pistols, first shot each, no recoil. Second Simple Action: Shoot both pistols, second shot each, one recoil each, -2 dice each. (...) Bye Thanee |
That's how I thought it worked
They seem to want venting to be something that's only really used with Automatics, now. Sad, because I've got a player who could really go for a gas vent on his CMDT.
Venting for your handgun used to be sort of the default choice, unless you wanted a suppressor. Now I wonder how many of mine will eventually end up going suppressed all the time, since there's really no other options and conceal mods don't exist for accessories anymore.
Venting for your handgun used to be sort of the default choice, unless you wanted a suppressor. Now I wonder how many of mine will eventually end up going suppressed all the time, since there's really no other options and conceal mods don't exist for accessories anymore.
If you're really concerned about recoil (And you shouldn't with a Predator IV), ask your GM if you can have a custom grip or an under barrel weight on your Predators.
The Hamerelli 620S comes with an internal Gas Vent.
Yes, but internally-mounted systems on weapons are often-times not consistent with what you could mount using the rules on a "blank" gun. The most obvious example would be the Ingram Smartgun, which has both a Gas Vent II and a Sound Suppressor (despite the fact that no other gun would allow you to do this unless it had at least one of those systems installed already).
Does gas venting in RL decrease power?
As a rule, not at all. The gas is vented at the muzzle or very close to it, so the muzzle velocity is close enough to the original to make no difference. The kind of vents you see on the compensated Glocks might reduce muzzle velocity slightly (25fps? 50fps?) since they let some of the propellant gases escape well before the muzzle, but I've never seen any figures on that.
Does it change how much recoil's compensated if the vent's nearer the muzzle? Also, the vented pistol's said to be for beginners. Does that mean there's somehow a drawback to using it over the normal Glock?
| QUOTE (emo samurai) |
| Does it change how much recoil's compensated if the vent's nearer the muzzle? |
No. That's just a design question. Glock handguns do not have barrels that protrude out of the slide, and the ports cannot be right at the front of the slide (because the front sight is there, for one thing).
| QUOTE (emo samurai) |
| Also, the vented pistol's said to be for beginners. Does that mean there's somehow a drawback to using it over the normal Glock? |
Most gas venting recoil reduction systems increase muzzle blast and noise (for the shooter). Apparently compensated Glocks are also a bit less reliable than uncompensated ones, because like most pistols they are recoil operated.
As a house rule we allow players to have added anti recoil from either a weight mod or gas vent mod of -1.
But we do our recoil differentlly for our house rules so this may not help you any.
But we do our recoil differentlly for our house rules so this may not help you any.
in SR3 customs grips gave +1 recoil comp to pistols. I wouldn't see any problem having the same in SR4. I would be very surprised if this was not in the SR4 cannon compainion.
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) | ||
No. That's just a design question. Glock handguns do not have barrels that protrude out of the slide, and the ports cannot be right at the front of the slide (because the front sight is there, for one thing). |
If one wanted to be pedantic, one could claim that vents nearer the muzzle have better leverage for countering barrel climb, since they're farther from the fulcrum (your grip). Still, the difference between a vent as close to the muzzle as possible and one as far from the muzzle as possible without killing muzzle velocity would be negligible.
This may be a odd question, but in SR2 wasn't there away to reduce recoil by having a large strength total?
Thyme...
Thyme...
| QUOTE (reconsweden) |
| SR doesn´t have much to do with reality, the fact that you don´t need subsonic ammo for suppressors kind of sets the bar. |
Remember kids, it doesn't matter if the weapon is silenced if your target's head explodes before the sound of the shot reaches him.
(okay, maybe it does to his buddies, but it sounds better if you leave that fact out)
| QUOTE (Thyme Lost) |
| This may be a odd question, but in SR2 wasn't there away to reduce recoil by having a large strength total? Thyme... |
In SR3 every 6 points of Strength counted as a point of RC.
| QUOTE (Vaevictis @ Mar 8 2006, 04:20 AM) |
| Remember kids, it doesn't matter if the weapon is silenced if your target's head explodes before the sound of the shot reaches him. (okay, maybe it does to his buddies, but it sounds better if you leave that fact out) |
Yeah. The less the opposition knows, the better, so it's nice to keep them from knowing exactly where the shot came from. The further away they are, the less they're likely to hear. If a .308 sounds like a .22 rifle at your position, they're unlikely to hear much in the way of muzzle blast when they're 400 meters out (for example). Just zzzzzziPUCK! So, really, if you have access to a suppressor in that kind of a situation, there's absolutely zero reason not to use one, subsonic ammo or not.
And no, you don't necessarily need subsonic ammo for suppressed firearms, but the closer you're expecting to be to the target, the better it is to have it. At short range, the sound of the bullet going supersonic can sound pretty close to muzzle blast anyway.
Other than that, what Aus said.
@Raygun: I didn´t mean that you need subsonics for a suppressor IRL but that the SR rules dont require that you use subsonics even though the effect(ruleswise) is that of a suppressed weapon with subsonics.
I shoot a rem700 AICS with suppressor quite often and almost never use subsonics, I mostly use them for fun and ballistic experiments.
A suppressor equipped rifle using supersonic rounds almost always make the targets estimate the direction of the shooter 90 degrees wrong.
I shoot a rem700 AICS with suppressor quite often and almost never use subsonics, I mostly use them for fun and ballistic experiments.
A suppressor equipped rifle using supersonic rounds almost always make the targets estimate the direction of the shooter 90 degrees wrong.
Akimbo's Tips: The best of the best Shadowrunners don't worry themselves about cool factors like dual weilding. A fancy runner is usually a dead runner. My first few years trying to dual weild almost got me killed... a lot... Besides, you can get virtually the same firepower with a submachien gun or an assault rifle. Either that or throw a ton of edge in your dual weild.
| QUOTE (Akimbo) |
| Akimbo's Tips: The best of the best Shadowrunners don't worry themselves about cool factors like dual weilding. A fancy runner is usually a dead runner. My first few years trying to dual weild almost got me killed... a lot... Besides, you can get virtually the same firepower with a submachien gun or an assault rifle. Either that or throw a ton of edge in your dual weild. |
Take an Adept Elf, with 7 Agility, 6 pistol, Spec in SA, 6 Magic, 2 Improved Reflexes, 6 Improved Ability:Pistols, 4 Edge.
7+6+2+6=21 Dice without edge, before spliting.
Taking the right negative qualities can still give you enoung BP so have a well rounded character, who just happens to be one of the best people with guns.
Thyme...
IA is limited to 1.5 times the skill's rating, thanks to the errata.
| QUOTE (nick012000) |
| IA is limited to 1.5 times the skill's rating, thanks to the errata. |
ok....
Take an Adept Elf, with 7 Agility, 6 pistol, Spec in SA, 6 Magic, 2 Improved Reflexes, 3 Improved Ability:Pistols, 3 Mystic Armor, 4 Edge.
7+6+2+3=18 Dice without edge, before spliting.
That still leaves 9 dice for each pool. Which should be more than enough two hit anyone who is not full dodging or using edge.
Thyme...
| QUOTE |
| Akimbo's Tips: The best of the best Shadowrunners don't worry themselves about cool factors like dual weilding. A fancy runner is usually a dead runner. My first few years trying to dual weild almost got me killed... a lot... Besides, you can get virtually the same firepower with a submachien gun or an assault rifle. Either that or throw a ton of edge in your dual weild. |
I was to understand that it was desirable to live fast, die young and, correct me if I am wrong, leave a good looking corpse.
Waltermandias' Tip: The Shadowrunner who dies with the most awesome: wins.
| QUOTE (Thyme Lost) |
| 7+6+2+6=21 Dice without edge, before spliting. |
Any player who wants to put that many of his character's points into doing that one thing that phenomenally well is welcome to do it.
You know what's really amusing, though? Watching overspecced gunslingers trying to hit things further out than the 60m "extreme" range on a handgun
That's what a good rifle is for. You shouldn't be good at just one type of firearm.
| QUOTE (Shrike30) | ||
Any player who wants to put that many of his character's points into doing that one thing that phenomenally well is welcome to do it. You know what's really amusing, though? Watching overspecced gunslingers trying to hit things further out than the 60m "extreme" range on a handgun |
That is what friends and backup is for. This Character would be part of a group. Just make sure someone else in the group is good with assault rifles or that you have a mage with combat spells or both.
If all the enemy are out side range, you have your team cover you while you close.
With a small change in Adept Powers, 5 Magic into Improved Reflexes lvl 3, and 1 point into IA:Pistols Lvl 2.
You get 7+6+2+2=17 dice to shoot, and you get 4 Initiative Passes.
Spend up to three IP coving ground, and hitting the target will no longer be a problem.
I make characters to work in teams. This adept elf you more than likely have at least 1 in Automatics(Spec Assualt Rifle), for at least 10 dices, he just wouldn't always carry an automatic weapon.
If the run is going to call for distance shooting, you plan for it before hand.
If the run doesn't call for distance shooting, make sure you have a mage for or least one person carrying an Assualt Rifle.
Thyme...
| QUOTE (Akimbo @ Mar 8 2006, 05:55 PM) |
| That's what a good rifle is for. You shouldn't be good at just one type of firearm. |
The player has already spent nearly 240 BP. He will be putting another 24 Build Points, 26 BP if he Specializes, into either Automatics or Longarms. So he is then looking at a 13 die pool even with the Specialization and only 140 Build Points left to buy gear, including weapons, and to try keep improve his character enough to keep from keeling over the first time someone shoots back, and maybe even being somewhat more useful than a dried out road apple when the situation doesn't call for shooting.
Even without taking that second firearms Skill the 160 BP he has left is going to lead to a fairly vulnerable and one dimensional character because he hasn't yet built up his Intuition or Perception. Intuition for shooting through full cover (blind). Perception? Can't shoot what you don't notice.
| QUOTE (Akimbo) |
| That's what a good rifle is for. You shouldn't be good at just one type of firearm. |
I started my relpy before you posted, but got pulled away from the computer...
| QUOTE (Akimbo) |
| That's what a good rifle is for. You shouldn't be good at just one type of firearm. |
See, we know this. But I can't count the number of players I've run into who do not know this.
| QUOTE (Brahm) | ||
The player has already spent nearly 240 BP. He will be putting another 24 Build Points, 26 BP if he Specializes, into either Automatics or Longarms. So he is then looking at a 13 die pool even with the Specialization and only 140 Build Points left to buy gear, including weapons, and to try keep improve his character enough to keep from keeling over the first time someone shoots back, and maybe even being somewhat more useful than a dried out road apple when the situation doesn't call for shooting. Even without taking that second firearms Skill the 160 BP he has left is going to lead to a fairly vulnerable and one dimensional character because he hasn't yet built up his Intuition or Perception. Intuition for shooting through full cover (blind). Perception? Can't shoot what you don't notice. |
24 BP into a second Firearm skill is a bit much.
6 or 10 at most.
Automatics 1/2 (Assualt Rifle)
Character is also an Elf, Spend 30 more on Charisma for a total of 6 Charisma.
I'm not spending more than 10 to 15 BP on Gear.
No Attributes below 3.
At least 1 dodge, at least 1 perception, some social skills...
Good Contants and glasses and Ear Piece.
Sensitive System (15 BP)
other negative Qualities that fit...
I'm made a couple different characters that fit.
I'm been making maining SR4 characters since I started reading the book.
Thyme...
| QUOTE (Shrike30) | ||
See, we know this. But I can't count the number of players I've run into who do not know this. |
Keep in mind this is just one character idea...
I know the importance of being able to use many different types of firearms, just because one character is a forces mainly on one firearm, does't mean all the characters I make do.
Thyme...
| QUOTE (Thyme Lost) |
| Character is also an Elf, Spend 30 more on Charisma for a total of 6 Charisma. I'm not spending more than 10 to 15 BP on Gear. No Attributes below 3. At least 1 dodge, at least 1 perception,some social skills... Good Contants and glasses and Ear Piece. Sensitive System (15 BP) |
Oops, missed the 5 BP for Adept before. So with Automatics(AR) 2(4) that brings you up to 251. The Charisma takes you to 271, and the rest of the Attributes at 3 and 15 Build Points of gear that takes you to 386. With Sensitive System and the point in Dodge and Perception you'll have enough for Influence Group 2 or a mix of 5 Skills. Even with Charisma 6 that isn't really a true Face, though he'd work as backup face.
So now he can shoot dual pistols nearly as well as his opposition will be shooting a single pistol, is solidly competent with an AR, can chat people up, and likely will survive getting shot at 2 or 3 times with a pistol shot if he's wearing his maximum armor.
Incidentally Reaction 3 + Body 3 = target, and with only 4 Perception dice shooting first might not happen as often as you'd like.
| QUOTE (Thyme Lost) |
| I know the importance of being able to use many different types of firearms, just because one character is a forces mainly on one firearm, does't mean all the characters I make do. |
Nah, that wasn't a shot at you. Between my brother and I, we used to run with a fairly good selection of guys who could find ways to build characters that were so focused into doing whatever it was they did, they literally coudn't do anything else. We've all met these types.
On a side note, a conversation between myself and one of my players recently came up with another Specialization of the Pistols skill... Pistols (Akimbo). Now, it doesn't matter what you're using, as long as you've got two of 'em. And when do you not?
| QUOTE (Brahm) |
| Incidentally Reaction 3 + Body 3 = target, and with only 4 Perception dice shooting first might not happen as often as you'd like. |
Dual wielding the pistols is for when you can get away with it.
Two shoots with one gun, each shoot having 19 dice (Smartlink), means you can bring plenty of hurting to others.
Plus, as always, if you can't count on your back up, your as good as dead.
Thyme
| QUOTE (Thyme Lost) |
| Two shoots with one gun, each shoot having 19 dice (Smartlink), means you can bring plenty of hurting to others. |
Did you remember the need to split your dice pool?
| QUOTE (tisoz) | ||
Did you remember the need to split your dice pool? |
I think he means two Simple Actions using a SA weapon, not dual wielding.
| QUOTE (Brahm) | ||||
I think he means two Simple Actions using a SA weapon, not dual wielding. |
Yup...
The advantage of making a character good at dual wielding pistols, is that they are even better at not dual wielding pistols.
Thyme
Going pistols akimbo in SR4 is effective in pretty much the same situations it's effective IRL... when you're reasonably skilled, and a few feet away from the target.
If there's no real penalties going on, you should hopefully have enough dice in your pool to beat out his Reaction roll, forcing him to resist a 5/-1 hit (or whatever your weapon of choice does) 4 times, instead of 2 with a couple of extra DV added on. The target being lightly- or un-armored helps a lot, too (as would loading APDS).
In any other situation besides the "you're standing on his desk unloading into him" one, you're almost certainly better off firing one of those guns at a time.
If there's no real penalties going on, you should hopefully have enough dice in your pool to beat out his Reaction roll, forcing him to resist a 5/-1 hit (or whatever your weapon of choice does) 4 times, instead of 2 with a couple of extra DV added on. The target being lightly- or un-armored helps a lot, too (as would loading APDS).
In any other situation besides the "you're standing on his desk unloading into him" one, you're almost certainly better off firing one of those guns at a time.
well the way they set it up now is if the damage code is less than the armor rating its stun damage anyways so you may as well just take out a taser and start firing
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