If you're a mage, then you could just astrally project behind a wall or something and manabolt a dual-natured beast. It can't project, and it can't just move through the barrier, so it's pretty much helpless. Is this supposed to happen?

doesnt the wall still block LOS?

Oh... so the wall blocks LOS in astral space, too?

i beleive they do, , they just dont block movement

That's the way I always saw it. Being in the Astral is like having -noclip mode on in an FPS.

Yes. The wall still blocks LOS. Of course, a projecting mage can fly, so anywhere out in the open any dual creature is a fish in a barrel waiting for astral attack helicopters to come and kill it with mana bolts.

But anywhere that a dual natured critter has a ceiling they can reach, a projecting mage has to subject themselves to attack before they can strike. That's why ghouls feel so much safer in sewers and drainage ditches than forests.

-Frank

I am afraid you have to settle for flying above the poor dual natured critter and raining death on them from out of reach.

I'd figure that ghouls would feel more comfortable in the sewers because there's more access to metahuman flesh in the city, opposed to the forest.

Unless you're only eating dryads or something.

Astrally projecting through a wall works as long as you ran into this critter while you were astrally projecting in the first place.

If you run into the critter in person, which is what I feel is most common, astrally projecting through a wall would do nothing. To do that you would have to leave behind your meat body which I'm sure the critter would go right after if it couldn't get you first.

I know it's obvious, but it had to be mentioned...

plants don't, i believe, block astral movement, any more than any other non-dual-natured living thing blocks astral movement.

If Memory Serves, a living thing like the forest is a bit of a hassle because you have to deal with all the living biomass.

However, the sewers (or even the subway, for that matter) creates an infinitely more safe place to chill out, as you can't use astral movement through the earth. You'd have to go in through an opening in the ground, opposed to just sinking down into your random underground chill-out place.

And I do seem to remember people using kudzu to keep people from astral projecting themselves into buildings.

dual-natured kudzu.

Heh. You don't need to ward your home for Astral privacy. Just bury it in dirt.

Correct me if I'm wrong (Frank ) but wasn't dual-natured changed in 4th edition to mean that they can astrally perceive, instead of the previous always astrally acitve? I thought I remembered reading that in the critters section.

Firstly: Kudzu does not block astral travel. Only astral objects do: astral barriers, and astral critters.

Secondly: In 4th Edition, Dual Natured critters are always Astrally Percieving. The action is Auto and the duration of the power is Always.

'k, missed that . thanks

ouch.

But it it's astrally perceiving, that means it can still move its meat body, right?

Emo: Yes.

Frank: Personally, I'd rule they percieved both at the same time. RAW seems to lean more towards the toggle-mode, though

I think that that may be a little bit too literal a reading of the Dual-Natured rules. Granted, it's not written all that clearly, but it seems to me that it was not their intention for dual natured to work the same as astral perception, with the need to switch perceptions. What I got from it was the idea that dual natured beings can always see astral space and interact with it (like an astrally perceiving character). What it seems they were saying was not that the dual-natured power works like the astral perception power, but rather that the state of being dual-natured is like the state of astrally perceiving.

Well, under that set of circumstances, Tisoz, it wouldn't make sense for them to _ever_ not see the astral plane. Given that they are at least 50% astral in nature, and you can certianly function in the prime without using prime vision, well.

Gah. It's giving me a headache.

Certainly Ghouls can only see in one plane at a time.

-Frank

So lemme give this a go and see if I've got it. In the example of say... a hell hound. It can only see on either the astral, or the physical plane at any one time. It has to switch back and forth. However ,it is active on the astral and 'material' plane at the same time. So a hell hound could attack a spirit that it can't see on the astral plane, while looking at the mage that summoned it on the physical. That just seems convoluted.

Sounds like some very bad verbiage in use. Or bad 'shrooms. Maybe that's how they're supposed to see both planes at the same time. Beware Hellhounds in the NAN.

True. After a bit of head-clearing, I couldn't help but think a couple of things. Let's say you're John Everyghoul. Nevermind the previous mention of them being blind on the physical plane and all that, due to the whole deteriation thing. Let's say that they can see perfectly on the physical plane as well.

Here comes the question. Why would you _want_ to see the physical plane, opposed to the astral? The only reason I can figure is that you can't read on the astral plane. And being native to the thing mitigates the penalty. Or, well, it did in SR3.

Your theoretical not-blind Ghoul would only want to see the physical plane if he was particularly literate. Now, keep in mind the other kinds of dual natured critters. Very, very few of them have _any_ reason to use physical sight over the astral. Okay, there's the object of barriers, but it's not like you can go through them anyways.

So, I figure that might be one option. Your critter with dual nature doesn't really have reason to use physical sight. Considering that astral sight is basically a blurrier vision of physical sight...

Seeing the astral reflection of something isn't good enough for LOS? I had assumed that it would still work, because you can see them, even if they don't have an astral form. I'm not too sure, though. I may just not understand that aspect of the rules very well.

Feh, I says. Having an awakened critter to guard your facility is totally gimpy now. Houserule, I says!

Also, we should be able to cast through physical barriers if we can see their aura in the astral plane. It's a game of escalation.

One thing to remember: You don't need to be able to perceive or project astrally to have an astral presence. Every living organisme down to the single-celled organisme has an astral presence. Which is why you can use living matter as an astral barrier - mages cannot pass through living matter in astral form.

The astral world mirrors the physical world, only that non-living matter is a dull gray entity that a mage can see but not interact with - which is why you can phase through a concrete wall, it's there, as an object that can block your sight, but is dead, so it can't interact with you.

A dual-natured creature most likely wouldn't bother using it's physical sight as it can assess a target much more accurately by how strong its astral signature is.

How's biofiber work, then? My BBB is at home.

It's dual?

It is dual.

It is dual!

Is it dual?

It IS dual!