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Kremlin KOA
QUOTE (ronin3338)
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator @ Apr 7 2006, 06:37 PM)
They've done that already. Somehow they didn't manage to catch on.

I remember seeing those a few years ago. It was SS, bolt-action, and weighed about 14 pounds. On the upside, that weight worked wonders for recoil compensation, to the point where you hardly felt any at all.

One of my friends said, "It's single shot. While you're working the bolt, they'd gun you down!"

I said, "If someone pulls this out in a firefight, who the hell would stay to shoot back?" biggrin.gif

hmmm
troll
with lots of these
lots of quick draw holsters
high reaction
and ambidexterity 8
Austere Emancipator
I had no idea. Thanks for clearing that up for me. Goes to show just how much there is to know about something as "simple" as a gun. smile.gif

BTW, is that definition of long stroke vs. short stroke gas operation the most commonly used one? The Wikipedia article for example disagrees with it.

QUOTE (Raygun)
(The MP9 is recoil operated with a rotating barrel; but I get you anyway).

I'm not good enough at this to appreciate the differences between some firearm actions, so I was simply going by the common descriptions of the TMP as a (delayed) blowback weapon. I thought it sounded a bit odd to have a blowback weapon with a locking breech... Short recoil certainly seems more fitting.

QUOTE (Raygun)
In the case of the MP7, I'd say it's the cartridge more than anything else. I don't think I've seen any accuracy testing figures comparing the P90 to the MP7, have you?

Absolutely. And nope, not a thing. Since these guns aren't supposed to do sub-MoA accuracy anyhow, their accuracy is certainly dictated by other design factors. I should have just said "If you want a Sniper Machine Pistol, it might be better to design it around gas than blowback operation".
Raygun
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
I had no idea. Thanks for clearing that up for me. Goes to show just how much there is to know about something as "simple" as a gun. smile.gif

BTW, is that definition of long stroke vs. short stroke gas operation the most commonly used one? The Wikipedia article for example disagrees with it.

Every other description I've read regarding what consitutes a "short stroke" or "long stroke" gas operating system completely contradicts what this person has to say at the bottom of the article. As I've learned these differences from several different published authors as well as firearm manufacturers, and this is a Wikipedia article, I'm inclined to go with the authors and firearm manufacturer's descriptions rather than whoever wrote this Wikipedia article (which lacks references, mind you). But hell, I guess it could be that everything I've read is wrong and this guy is right...

I have never, not once before in my life, seen an AK-47 referred to as using a short stroke gas system.
Eddie Furious
RE: Piston action v. Direct Impingement/Delayed Blowback.

I was always under the impression that the piston system would be a bit more accurate as there was less gas being vented into the gas operation, therefore upping the barrel pressures and giving the round a bit more speed to help with the trip out to the target. With delayed blowback, well, you know how accurate they are, first name to come to mind is well, you know... wink.gif I also recognize there are other factors involved, such as rifling, spec'd headspace, barrel length and specific round performance to name but a few. Sorry, I thought I gave the impression it would be a minor improvement, not anything noticable beyond the bench.

Regarding the OICW, when you are a soldier carrying a weapon as bulky as the OICW around, you will not be as effective. The US Military recognized there was a critical loss in capability despite the increased available firepower. Also, I don't care how big a guy is, after he carries the thing at the ready for an hour accurate shooting will be a rare beast. Lugging the biggest & baddest doesn't mean a damn thing if you can't deliver the goods.

Trust me, I know. I used to lug an L7 with 200 rds ready on patrol at one time. It weighed about 12kg (26lb). There was a reason we would only use it when braced or on the bipod/tripod.
Eddie Furious
QUOTE (Raygun)
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
I had no idea. Thanks for clearing that up for me. Goes to show just how much there is to know about something as "simple" as a gun. smile.gif

BTW, is that definition of long stroke vs. short stroke gas operation the most commonly used one? The Wikipedia article for example disagrees with it.

Every other description I've read regarding what consitutes a "short stroke" or "long stroke" gas operating system completely contradicts what this person has to say at the bottom of the article. As I've learned these differences from several different published authors as well as firearm manufacturers, and this is a Wikipedia article, I'm inclined to go with the authors and firearm manufacturer's descriptions rather than whoever wrote this Wikipedia article (which lacks references, mind you). But hell, I guess it could be that everything I've read is wrong and this guys is right...

I have never, not once before in my life, seen an AK-47 referred to as using a short stroke gas system.

Longstroke, shortstroke. I didn't give a damn as long as the bloody thing worked.
Austere Emancipator
Okay. It's just that I don't have any real references for the technical details of firearm operation and Wikipedia was the obvious place to check first.

The whole description of long vs. short stroke in the Wiki article is pretty weird -- clearly the "stroke", even by his definition, is longer than the diameter of the gas piston in any of these weapons. Maybe whoever wrote it had just finished reading something dealing with other types of (non-firearms related) pistons and decided to go on a crusade the definition of a stroke in gun-lingo.

QUOTE (Eddie Furious)
Sorry, I thought I gave the impression it would be a minor improvement, not anything noticable beyond the bench.

You probably would've, only I'm being particularly stupid today. My bad for turning this into such a big thing.
Raygun
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
The whole description of long vs. short stroke in the Wiki article is pretty weird -- clearly the "stroke", even by his definition, is longer than the diameter of the gas piston in any of these weapons. Maybe whoever wrote it had just finished reading something dealing with other types of (non-firearms related) pistons and decided to go on a crusade the definition of a stroke in gun-lingo.

Looks to be the case. It appears that, in relation to all piston/cylinder systems, if the stroke of the piston is longer than the diameter of the piston, it's a long stroke. If the stroke is shorter than the piston diameter, it's a short stroke. However, I have yet to find anything that says that the distance the piston is under pressure has anything to do with it.

EDIT: Looking into this further, it appears that I did simply misunderstand what the terms "long stroke" and "short stroke" actually refer to. However, incidentally (and luckily for me), all the rifles I had previously considered to use a short stroke piston in fact do use a short stroke piston. Furthermore, it is a pretty safe bet these days that a gas-operated firearm utilizing a piston that is independent of the bolt carrier (with or without any kind of operating rod between the two) is a short stroke piston system. However, that does not necessarily make it so, technically speaking, and I believe that that was the only point the person who wrote the Wikipedia article was trying to make.

I still have yet to find any models of the AK that could really be considered to use a short stroke piston. The closest I could find happens to be the AKM that I own (a semi-auto Romanian SAR-1), having two exhaust ports drilled through each side of the gas block, just ahead of the point at which the cylinder attaches to it. As the only thing that's relevant to considering an AK either short stroke or long stroke - according to the Wikipedia article's definition - is the location of the exhaust ports, most AKs either have these ports drilled through the cylinder itself (further to the rear of the piston's stroke) or omit the exhaust ports entirely. Therefore, I would say that the vast majority of AKs (and the more direct variants) should be considered to use a long stroke piston, as I had suggest in my earlier post.
Butterblume
During my conscription time in the german army, the Bundeswehr, i had to carry around the MG3 sometimes, which weighs around 23 pounds, without ammo and additional accessories. Talk about unwieldy wink.gif.

Being about 135 pounds at the time, it took a while to get used to. Which i did.

Almost all the SR weapons are based on current technology, so it's hard to come up with something exotic that isn't unbalancing. (at least when it is usefull biggrin.gif).
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