I personaly noticed this problem with trolls and orks being limited in brain power, so what i did was raise their racial max intel by 1, so that now they CAN become brighter but they are still slugged from the get go.

If you are looking for house rule suggestions to balance them (if you do away with the mental Attribute penalties), then here's some:

>>Re-do the physical Attribute bonuses so they still have the net +3/+4, but waive the rule that you can only spend up to 6 points before modifiers when orks and trolls buy their Body and Strength - they can still have high scores in those areas, but it will cost them. A lot of players might wind up taking lower mental Attributes to take advantage of ork/troll high physical Attributes, but it will be possible to play an ork or troll with a 6 Intelligence or Charisma.

>>Make Orks take priority C or 10 build points, and make trolls take priority B (obviously, you would have to use sum-to-ten if you wanted to have troll sorcerers or adepts) or 20 build points. The higher cost to play that race would offset their high bonuses, and would also help insure that those races would tend to be poorer/have less skills - which would fit a disadvantaged/discriminated against segment of the population.

>>Use the normal modifiers, then orks and trolls have the option to buy higher Intelligence or Charisma - but past the "normal" starting maximum, it costs double points. In other words, a troll could spend 8 more build points to start out with an Intelligence of 6 instead of 4 (although they can also use the Bonus Attribute Edge normally, of course).

I have to say that even a race being "dumber" doesn't grant "rightness" to racism. Why not, you say? They can point to a friggin study and say look, they aren't as smart! They're an inferior species!

Well, sometime check out rights for the mentally handicapped. They've got 'em, they're legally recognized as people just the same as everyone else. Maybe they aren't given certain jobs, but no more than people with degenerative muscular diseases are given jobs lifting crates.
That makes the racism angle even more interesting, in my opinion: how well will someone who has a brother with Downes' Syndrome react to a Humanis Policlub member on the streetcorner touting statistics that Trogs are inferior because they're dumb? What about the other runner whose best friend's sister had cerebral palsy?
The character I'm currently playing (an Elf) would reach for her shotgun, no questions asked.

~J

Kagenteshi - that's a really good point I hadn't considdered.

But to add my 0.2 nuyen...

intelect: There's a family that lives near me, in RL, who are just plain dumb. It's not a mental disfunction in the genetic/disease sense - they're just dumb. All of them. Sure, they have knowledge and they have skills, but they are (how should I say this...) "Slow on the up-take."
It's heredetary. They are all like it. I assume that it's genetic.

Genetics: Why can there not be smart Trolls? No reason - at all. The same way that there can be tall Chinese humans. However (as someone already mentioned, kinda) there is a Genetic Predisposition toward a certain phenotype. Trolls have a genetic predisposition to being less acute than baseline humanity. They also have a genetic predisposition to being REALLY FRAGGING BIG, STRONG TOUGH... (you get the picture). There may, however, be short trolls, smart trolls, weak trolls... (you get the picture again, right?)

Expected Life Span: Again, to repeat someone else's statement: There may be a factor in this which is entirely oweing to the lack of sufficient medicinal care for the Ork and Troll metatypes, and their tendency to live (by necesity) in squalor. This would be supported by the slightly longer lifespans of Dwarves who are resistant to disease - thus bringing up their average. However, I would like to draw everyone's attention to the recent commercial featuring Jason Statham for the "Kit Kat Kubes" confectionary - currently airing in the UK. It speaks of the fast cheetah and elk, who live fast and die young. And the giant turtle with an average speed of nought miles per hour, which lives for 200 years.

They're both animals - just vastly different. Like, say, a lithe, skinny elf and a massive, hulking troll perhaps? Think how much energy must be expended moving those giant bodies! Then there's pure genetics... maybe, just maybe the telomeres of troll DNA shorten faster than those of a human, or an elf. I don't know why, or how, but they might. They're not real, so I can't do a blood test and study it. It's fantasy. The game designers can do what they want.

Racism: It happens. Nobody will ever stop biggotry, no matter whether it's colour, status, penis size or metatype. It sucks, but that's the way it is. The word, "Prejudice" comes, no doubt, from pre-judicial. To judge in advance, based on your perceptions of a person as governed by what you see - black skin, cheap clothes, tiny weiner, horns and tusks. These visual stimuli can, to varying degrees, invoke different feelings. I felt physically inferior to many of the Afro-carribean boys at college, who tended to be very fit. I have a tendency to find Oriental men to be more charismatic (don't ask me why, it's just a weird... thing) than caucasians, so I am more inclined to trust them and make friends. I avoid people in suits - the well tailored suit is a status symbol, and I just don't like all that is inferred by it. More so, I avoid those dressed in the robes of the clergy (I'll stop the metaphors there, before the penis one...).

I could be wrong on all counts, but Humans naturally judge by sight (and smell, and hearing - you get what I mean). It's unavoidable. I'd get the troll to move the boxes, because he looks stronger, but equally someone who felt uneasy around trolls, or who had an even stronger reaction, might choose the elf.

Sheesh, now I'm just rambling and I lost my point. It's in there somewhere. Read it again, you might find it.

Oh, and:

Well sorry, I just do not agree. They may have all come from the same race but an elf is not a human, nor is a Troll. They are considered different races, and if you think Trolls breed with humans... well... that's gotta hurt.

Sunday

don't things like deaths due to stillbirths and violence still count towards lowering life expectancy? so the lower life expectancy of orks and trolls could be due to high violence related deaths; or in the case of orks, high rate of still births because of the huge amount of children they have.

[edit] and in the case of stat modifiers you could just use TN modifiers instead, which can be just as bad, if not worse.
and as for

I'd just like to address the seemingly most popular opinion that the intelligence penalty is okay for orks and trolls because of unalterable, cold, genetic fact.

Say this out loud to yourself:

"I am a troll. The average member of my race is not as fast a runner as the average human. This is a biological fact."

Now, replace the word "troll" with "Caucasian". Replace human with "African-American."

Now say this out loud:

"I am a troll. The average member of my race is not as intelligent as the average human. This is a biological fact."

Now, replace "troll" with "African-American". Replace human with "Caucasian."

Now, take a long moment and consider your gut reaction to all four of these sentences. The first sentence, as a Shadowrun player, most likely didn't bother you. The second sentence, putting real world races into the SR context, may have bothered you, particularly if you're a white athlete (More on that later), or it may have simply struck you as a general fact. The third sentence, unless you're Velocity ( ) probably didn't bother you either. But, my clinical psychology class and I are both willing to bet that approximately 80% of you did not like the sound of the fourth sentence.

Now, put yourself in the context of an ork in the UCAS, circa 2061. Say the third sentence again, keeping your new role in mind. As an ork in 2061 how does it make you feelt? How do you think it would make you feel to have a human telling it to you? How do you think it would make you feel to have a scientist telling it to you? Would you believe it? Would you accept it?

The preceding experiment was a slight modifcation of one conducted by my clinical psychology course a few months ago. The actual name of the technique escapes me (Any psych majors out there?), but the basic conclusion was this: Approximately 80% of people do not feel comfortable saying that any one ethnicity possesses more mental acuity than any other. When asked why, the vast majority responded with something along these lines: "Because it doesn't make sense."

So.... yes, Shadowrun is a half-fantasy, half sci-fi setting. Yes, fantasy, in the most general sense, is built on certain stereotypes. Tolkien's orcs (not orks) were savage, nearly mindless, and it was fully established that this was a simple fact of their twisted birth, not their upraising in a violent, savage society. D&D's orcs are savage and nearly mindless, but an orc taken out of "orcish" can be raised with dwarven values, elven values, human values, whatever. So... D&D has not stepped completely away from Tolkien's convention, but they have distances themselves from it somewhat by establishing that an intelligent creature is a product of his society, not his biology.

"But WAIT!", I hear you yell, "Shadowrun is NOT D&D!!" No, it's not, and thank god for it. Neither is Shadowrun Tolkien. If Shadowrun was Tolkien, well.... orks (Not orcs) and trolls (Who owe absolutely NOTHING to either Tolkien's or D&D take on a troll) would not have the ORC, would not be a part of society in any form, would not be able to restrain themselves from trying to control or destroy everything around them, and would consistently be (deep breath), mindless savage brutes.

So.... if Shadowrun was to use Tolkien's example... well, all those Humanis goons would be right, wouldn't they?

So, are those Humanis goons right in your game? Maybe they are, and that's your choice. However, in my game, and any game where the GM is interested in his players playing their orcs and trolls are more than their sterotype, they are not either.

Being less intelligent!=being a mindless, violent brute.

~J

Nah... 'cause that's what it says in the Big Black Book...

And why do Dwarves get a blanket movement penalty? Why do Trolls get a blanket Strength bonus?
While physical abilities may be a lot less likely to be a sensitive subject than mental abilities, they're no more a valid possibility for something that has varying typical levels in different races. It's just not something that can be measured outside of an RPG environment.
Or maybe it can be and I'm just brainwashed to be politically correct. It doesn't matter; I don't care if I'm genetically predisposed to be more or less intelligent than anyone else. I don't, for the most part, actually care how intelligent someone is, I care how they act. There are people with IQs higher than me (and that's high) who act in ways that I would characterise as "seriously fucking stupid". I myself am an idiot in many ways, despite having a high raw processing ability. There are people who can do things I can't, and probably will never be able to do, despite the fact that they are probably of very average intelligence, sometimes subaverage.
If you want to have a truly even-handed game, do away with all bonuses and minuses, expand the edge/flaw system, use racism more liberally, and have fun with your game. Do not, however, mistake it for or claim it to be Shadowrun.

~J

On the elf Charisma bonus: Charisma represents self-esteem and force of personality. So why do elves have stronger personalities? Maybe it is growing up being told that they are "special", having people idolize them, and being part of a cool clique just by birth, in addition to fitting the human ideals of beauty (tall and slim). Even elves that reject these stereotypes, and their "heritage", will still tend to have more self-confidence than others.

Similarly, orks and trolls face racism, limited opportunities, few role models, etc. Plus, they mature physically before they have fully matured mentally. So is it any wonder they are not as confident or adept at social interactions? Maybe that's part of the reason that orks and trolls have lower starting Intelligence and Charisma - they're younger than their human, dwarven, and elven counterparts.


If you have a problem with orks and trolls being penalized on a mental Attribute, then you should also take another look at how you handle the elven Charisma bonus. Be careful, though. Elves are the most expensive race when you look at what you actually get when you buy them. Their superior potential as a full mage or face is one of the few things still keeping them playable compared to the other races. So if you negate their Charisma bonus, you probably give them an extra point of Quickness and reduce their cost to 5 build points/priority D.

Finally, you should also look at the dwarven Willpower bonus. If you want to be consistent across the board, you should eliminate this, too. Maybe you could change it to an extra point of Body instead.

If you do this, though, then you are taking away a lot of the aptitudes that make people want to play elves and dwarves in the first place. Why play an elven face or a dwarven sorcerer, if they are the same thing as a short human or a human with pointy ears?

That's like saying no one likes the KKK. It seems true, but then there's the fact that it never actually goes away...

~J

Of course, the KKK can do the same thing in retaliation... A quick drive-by of ye local orkish kindergarten should do just fine. Hmm, sounds likes like an adventure seed… Humanis Policlub and local gang, in war, politicians and reporters circling like vultures, PCs in the middle.

But LS would be all over the group that blew up a kindergarten. Even an Ork one.

Attacks again groups of grown people rallying for an unpopular cause would be less thoroughly investigated.

Depends. The gang is probably full of SINless. The Rally is probably full of tax-paying citizens. Guess which side the rent-a-Cops will side with.

Depends. The gang is probably full of SINless. The Rally is probably full of tax-paying citizens. Guess which side the rent-a-Cops will side with.

On the note of "Average Lifespan"

This can be explained by a higher metabolism for a larger being. The larger you are, the more energy you need to supply to your body to keep it going. The larger you are, the harder your heart has to pump to push blood to all your extremities. The harder your heart pumps, the more energy it uses, the less energy it saves over time, and the quicker it can lead to some sort of heart failure.

What am I saying? I'll bullet it.

• Larger = more energy required
• More energy required = more energy consumed
• More energy consumed = overall loss of energy
• Overall loss of energy = loss of life (generally)

How many times can you successfully say that you take in an equal amount of energy that you use? How many times can you say you don't take in enough? And how many can you say that you take in too much?

Not only do you use energy in normal "day-to-day things" that you actively do, you use it while digesting, thus taking more energy from you, while sleeping, thus taking more, while eating, moving, thinking, and doing anything you do, thus taking energy.

How much energy would it take to supply a 5'4" human, for example?

How about a 10' troll?

See the difference?

If one race can be stronger/faster/more magical etc... I see no reason why they can't be less/more intelligent.

It is supposed to balance out with overall stat boosts/decreases. If it were not the case then wouldn't everyone play a troll? All the physical perks with no mental disads?

I don't see why mental stuff should be considered more important then physical stuff. If people can be discriminated against because of their low int, they can also be discriminated against because of their low body/str/penis size. I think it may be a little myopic to attribute more importance to intelligence...in fact IRL intelligence is considered "more important" because we don't really have a need for physical stats (apart from physical labor and pro sports), but check around 2000 years ago and ask people if they'd rather have someone clever on their side, or someone big and strong.

In the SR world, physical stats are once again important because of all the conflict...as important as int imho. If you can cope with a +4 STR for trolls, then what's the problem with -2 int, and why is one more important/unfair than the other?

According to meriam webster, racism is:
"a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race"

So trolls can feel superior to everyone else based on strength. "Puny humans!" In fact if they were not less intelligent, then SR racism would STILL be valid but in reverse. Trolls would feel (justifiably) superior to all other races cause they get all the bonuses and no negatives. Wouldn't change anything other than which race feels superior.

I have no problem with races being different, and in this case I think the problem is people are saying that intelligence is the only factor for racism which imho is bullshit. Strength/Body/Dex/Penis Size can also factor into racism just as easily, so if we're gonna try and put an end to "justifiable racism" then no one should get ANY stat boosts or negatives, because *whammo* they are now different then everyone else and may have a reason to feel superior.

Since I didn't read all the thread, I may be missing some points here.

Nova

Actually, in nature, with a very few exceptions, the larger the animal the larger the lifespan. Compare a dog and an elephant, for instance.

~J

I'm going between shorter humans and taller humans. Most of the taller humans tend to die at an earlier age due to their heart being put on a harder system of pumps than a shorter person's.

Take Andre the Giant. Died early of heart failure. He was, what, 7', at least?

Now, if you're abnormally tall ("giant"), and another is abnormally short ("midget"), you usually both have the same clinical time to live. Going between the "average" height of anywhere from 5'7" to 6' flat for men, the 6 footers die a tad earlier.

Oh, and, as for Trolls being stupid as the stereotype, here you go. A Troll Bear Shaman Spellcasting Adept (just the Attribs via SR2 rules).

B: 10 (11 to Ballistics)
Q: 5
S: 9
C: 5
I: 8
W: 7
Init: 4d6+9

Now, had I felt like taking gaesa, I could've grabbed the Level 3 Encephalon and a Cerebral Booster 2 for a mind-number Intelligence of 12. That's twice your "normal" human genius. I could've also done some Edges and Flaws to really spice this guy up. Raise Racial Max (Int), Bonus Attrib Point (Int)... Int up to 9, 13 if I went with gaesa.

Of course, in SR3, if I remember correctly, you can't use magic to effect mental attributes. So, in SR3, he'd still be an Int 8 Troll. There goes that thought, neh?

Andre the Giant is not a really good example to use when discussing the troll lifespan. Andre was a human suffering from a detrimental medical condition. And people with dwarfism suffer from a shorter lifespan just like people with giantism.