So, a post I just wrote has me thinking about a few things.

Mostly, I would like to hear from the hardcore shadowrun populous on their opinions concerning the necessary and sufficient structure of shadowrun fiction. IE What does a story NEED to have before it has completely covered shadowrun?

To pull an example from the real world, Dungeons and Dragons (the movie, released in 2000) was a terrible movie. It wasn't a terrible movie just for its effects. It wasn't a terrible movie just for its acting. It was a terrible movie because the characters and plot didn't sufficiently encompass D&D, not express it as an organic whole.

Both the Shadowrun Movie Treatment and Shadowrun: One Night involved the concerted brainstorming of necessary elements of the shadowrun universe (a group of concepts that must be used in a story about Shadowrun to cover every broad concept sufficiently). Such thoughts I had include (these are pulled from pre-written stuff, but formulated into shorter forms for your benefit, they are in no particular order):

1) The three worlds of shadowrun storytelling are: "Real World", Astral Plane, and The Matrix

2) There must be at least one instance of each meta-type (either a character, or a reference with an example)

3) Necessary magic users are Adepts and any on of Mage, and Shaman

4) At least one rigger character must have focus (this almost inexorably means a vehicle chase or assault of some kind)

5) At least one Decker character must have focus (at least on Matrix run)

6) At least one incident must happen entirely in astral space to establish its semi-independence from reality (a purely astral combat or, less likely, an astral quest).

7) There must be at least one instance of Mr. Johnson

There must be at least one conflict between at least two megacoporations that drive at least one plot point

9) There must be at least one conflict that is related to love, hate, revenge, abandonment, personal neurosis/psychosis, etc on the part of at least one of the characters

10) There must be at least one moment of focues on the existence of fantasy races and the new forms of racism motivated by them

11) There must be at least one moment of focus on the existence of cyberware

What are your opinons, counterarguments, or furhter observations?

A few other thoughts:

• If it's a big story (and for a film, it should be), the Johnson should be, or should be working for, a dragon.
• Fast motorcycles, with lots of attitude. Preferably as a biker gang.
• The run must have a crucial complication, with the possibility of a double cross from the Johnson.
• If you're talking video, you need a kick ass, pulse pounding soundtrack.
• Interteam conflict is pretty much required. The team is working together 'cuz that's the best way to make the nuyen. Not because they like each other.
• Dirt and grit in street scenes, and starkly clean/sterile corporate environments. The contrast should be startling.
• At least one instance of a spirit summoning.

I'd slightly disagree with these two -- if you're talking cinematography --

"At least one instance of a spirit summoning." - Yeah, spirits indeed.

12) At least one moment of focus on the difference between spirits and sorcery

" An actual combat from their perspective might be a bit much."

Why is everyone so afraid of what shadowrun different (Read: Better) than regular cyberpunk? If you go for broke the audience will go there with you. For the Lord of the Rings: Return of the King I so completely believed in Oliphants (Giant Elephants), where they are shown on screen in a very relavant manner.

In the same vein, I am reminded of one time when I watched the movie "X-men 2" with assorted members of my wife's family. Of the people that didn't know about mutants going into it, only one came out of it commenting that they didn't get it , but that was out of five people. ("that was stupid" were the exact words, but she also wouldn't get spider-man if there wasn't a marketing machine behind it)

A further movie convention would be "House of Flying Daggers" or "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon" where the convention is to not give an explanation for gravity-defying powers.

I'm kind of rambling here, but also, in The Matrix, they gave the robots a lot of screen time to make the audience accept them as "Real", just as one must convince an audience watching Shadowrun: The Movie that magic, dragons, and the matrix are real.

And if you cram ten gallons of shit into a highball glass, it's going to get pretty messy. There is a point where you can just be adding things for the sake of adding them, and that usually makes for some pretty godawful results and it dilutes the rest of whatever might have actually been good in the first place.

I mean, watching Pitch Black I couldn't give a fuck about Riddick's POV if it was just used gratuitously and not as an actual element of the movie with purpose. Going astral just to go astral is a waste of time and resources. Meanwhile, I find the idea of a team with every possible metatype and character type laughable, and I usually thinkg of them as "Granola teams" because they are a P.C. wet dream, which immediately makes them ridiculous in Shadowrun.

Then again, I once had a runner do an extraction in the Puyallup Barrens while wearing a tailored suit. Convention is boring.

Personally i'd be more concerned with the story and in the case of a movie, flow of the story. If it's called for in the story then go for it.

I think the key would be to stay true to the cyberpunk genre...
anti-heroes
dystopian
social disorder
and technology, in the case of shadowrun, tech and magic

The only thing that should be included in any Shadowrun story would be metahumans and possibly magic (if, as i said, the story calls for it). Even then I wouldn't go out of my way to point out, "Hey look, an elf and look at the fancy magic he's casting!".

I suppose you're nearing my point. It's not that I would demand its inclusion in the story, it's that I want a story that demands these things. And, once again, I am looking for sufficient coverage of all aspects of Shadowrun. "Normalcy" is not an issue.

Also, if you're not playing with magic at all, why are you playing Shadowrun?

They made that game, it was called Cyberpunk 2020

It doesn't need any of the above. It needs a solid story, and a solid story has nothing to do with effects or the setting. You could put the Bourne Identity in any universe and time and it would still be good.

A solid story has to hit the plot points, it has to have a beginning, a middle and an end. It needs two turning points, and a good second act. The D&D movie was awful because it told no story, it counted on the awful acting of the "buddy duo" to carry it.

A good story is a good story, regardless of the universe. If you can't write a good story, you can't write a good Shadowrun story. If your goal is to pu in "one of each meta type" then you probably aren't going to tell a good stroy.

So you'd want to see a cyberlimbed Hamlet sending Rosencrantz and Guildensterm to Richard Villiers? A teacher of mine once Directed a Naked (as in naked actors) version of hamlet that did rather well

Stories are native to the genres created by their universes. Popular cinema has done a good job of sticking creativity in a blender and pushing out genre-less sludge and making us believe its innovation in storytelling. THe Lion King is a prime example while we're on the topic of Hamlet. Would the Bourne Identity mean anything if singing lions were the actors?

I suppose that will sound insipid on the reading, so let's just sum up by asking: what makes a good (Shadowrun) story? (which was my first question)

First and foremost is the story, i'm not arguing that...

But if you want Shadowrun, the story would take place within the cyberpunk genre.
Don't confuse my use of cyberpunk the genre with Cyberpunk the game. Shadowrun is a
sub-genre of a sub-genre, cyberpunk. Common themes of the cyberpunk genre
are anti-heroes, dystopian futures, social unrest, and an emphasis on technology.

Shadowrun has all of this, metas, and magic.

Like i said before i wouldn't make a point of shoving these things in the viewers face but I would at least include metas in the same manner as say LotR. They would just be there.

After that, what aspects of shadowrun are shown would be based on the story.

I wasn't really shooting for you Chuck. It wouldn't make much sense to say that to you given your signature.

I contend that central to distinguishing Shadowrun from "regular cyberpunk" is to re-emphasize the multi-planar nature of cyberpunk (its stories taking place across cyberspace and the real world) and just push it into magic through astral space.

I can see that there is a consensus on quality of story, but I still only see recursive definitions.

Well as far as what makes a good (Shadowrun) story... well that's
a little more complicated. It would have to involve the audience, make'em laugh/cry or think. I guess direction would be a good thing too, the story should have a point of some sort. And then there's conflict and resolution, those would be a must...

If you're gonna have a main protaganist he shouldn't be invincible, readers and audience would get bored with a guy who just constantly kicked ass. The protaganist(s) should be "beat up" a little and then over come it. Anywho...

I'm just talking outa my ass, please ignore any further posts by me

---End of Line---

Having a coherent, consistent story and well-developed characters is generally a good start. Everything else is lagniappe.

What about a story that does not double as a tour guide of Shadowrun? Something wonderfully not for newbies. I'd like that very much. In other words, the exact polar opposite to the new trilogy.

See my last post.

Dale: You would want a Shadowrun movie for SR players? I think we would have to face the sharp reality of that not selling terribly well (where would you find an executive produce, producer, writer, and director that didn't want to introduce explanatory elements?)

Shadow: I'm not saying that Hamlet necessitates lions, I'm saying that lions corrupt Hamlet. Are you arguing for or against genres being dead? If genres are meant to delineate sub-types amongst a group, but genres are interchangealbe sub-parts of stories then, dealing with genre as you said:

a) All stories are necessarily native "Shadowrun Stories" - "After you have a great story you can add the genre elements and fit the story to the genre"

b) No stories are necessarily native "Shadowrun Stories" - "making something feel like Shadowrun wouldn't necessarily make it a good story."

Genres must be dead because they either offer no distinction (a) or have nothing in them (b). My claim is that this is a wrong conclusion and a result of the popular "genre-mashing" that goes on with un-creative Hollywood.

Certainly, given the second line (which could be interpretted something like: "stories retro-fitted with genre elements do not necessarily fit in the genre" which would conclude that genres still exist), there must be stories unfit for Shadowrun. If we cannot define "good" Shadowrun stories, perhaps you would prefer to start with "Bad" shadowrun stories.

So shovel out all the bad shit till you find the golden turd?
IMO without a good story you have no good guideline for the book/movie and you are just going to keep adding in junk untill it is a jumbled mess. You can throw a fresh coat of paint on the house but if the structure of the house looks horible it wont work right. Once you have the base story in line you can start adding the extra stuff needed to work it into your vision.

Golden turds...not to be confused with gold-plated turds

That isn't a terrible example of applying a basic story to the world of SR. I suppose it matters to what granularity one defines "basic". If you just want to throw around "Young man coming of age", "romantic tale of winning back your only love" then duh you can make those work in anything; however, dwelling on the specific tale of Hamlet again, not all stories translate. According to my former Anth prof, the tribes he studied earlier in his life often had different takes on stories. For Hamlet specifically, they found his purported Oedipus complex to just be a sign of protecting his mother and part of his ascension to manhood.

I don't so much agree that your VO with some fly-through is quite enough. People don't "believe" in magic until they see it. Most non-SR types who saw the SR Short Movie didn't get magic until the barrier spell was cast and even then it was a A: WTF is that? B: That's a barrier A: WTF is it? B: It's magic A: There's magic in this B: Yeah, weren't you paying attention A: YEAH...not really...

I could certainly accept it as a starting point, but it's almost better to rely upon dialogue and action to highlight things like magic, astral space, the matrix, and metahumans. Otherwise, the audience is way thick about it.

True enough, but there is that time limit for the movie. 2.5, maybe 3 hours tops for a movie and if you spend too much time explaining then its just a core rulebook for the illiterate. Though, I do agree that you could always spend 5 min at the start of the movie with SFX to show magic and the Matrix.

It would probably be best to just show them something then leave it in some suspense until it can be explained later, much like in The Matrix where almost nothing is explained until the Morpheus "What is real?" scene

I dont think that would work in this situation cause in the Matrix ™, Neo was clueless about the whole situation. In this situation Bob knows about what is going on in the world.

Well, I was wondering more about what would be a better general policy. In the specific case of Bob and his shadowy friends, no you'd probably have to pursue it as under-handed exposition (as I attempted in the movie).

Overall, it's just handy to have clueless characters bouncing around Fantasy/Sci-Fi setting so they can have stuff explained to them

Start off with one of the chars a child in history class.

Like in Serenity? That could swing.

I solved it in my movie treatment by giving a character mental problems. Another solution I contemplated was making the main char a total n00b to the shadows.

It is the general style of Cyberpunk (Short Story of Johnny Mnemonic for example) to just forge ahead with the story and have the reader either tune in or lose them in the wreckage of your exposition. This is inherited by any attempts to build such stories and is already a huge problem for new players.