I have a great idea, and a fairly good beginning plan to create a Shadowrun MMORPG.
I need people who are also interested to help me in this project.

This will NOT be a ground-up project as that I have found a decent MMORPG engine called

Realm Crafter

And a few other programs and webpages

Lead Wurks
and
MMORPG Maker

My initial idea is to create a simple Demo using a gaming Module.
Only one scenario, will make it easier to complete and see what we are working with.

If this gets off the ground, the software will be licensed [it's either free or cheap], and I will pursue permissions from WizKids.

I NEED

• Programmers
• Artists
• Writers
• Character Designers
• GM's
• LOVERS OF SHADOWRUN

Anyone and everyone please please PLEASE feel free to share your input.
My soul aim in this project is to be able to play SR as an MMORPG, and not to make money, I just want to play.

Thanks, and remember.... Stay Low

Ori0n :: AIM [2nd O is a Zero]
Indifferentbass :: YIM
roopjm@gmail.com

What edition or SR are you wishing to build from?

What expectations for mechanics or gameplay do you already have?

What experience in software development or game design do you have?

What is your timetable for this project?

I am most familiar with 3rd Edition, but everything is open for discussion.

I have no expectations for mechanics and gameplay, I just have the idea and desire to play. Though I know this is not an original idea.

I have over 7 years of software development experience in C and C++

Timetable?
I wouldn't know until the project actually began.
Perhaps, 2 years?

I have talked with two other SR MMO groups (SR online and another through sourceforge), but I either dislike their direction (SRO) or have no faith in their skills (SourceForge).

The latter has time to turn things around, but right now, as I am the only one with any documentation concerning game mechanics (that I wrote anyway), I am the intellectual core of that project and I could leave taking everything it has produced with me.

If you are not only serious, but also competent, you might be what I wanted from the other two projects. I find myself in a bit of a dilemma

And I'm sure any team would be praising allah for the bounty of your presence, if that's the sort of ethic you bring to the table, eralston.

I've been working on an SR MMO for quite some time, and I'm now reminded why it has remained a largely solitary endeavor. It takes a special kind of person to alienate both their current and prospective team members with such a short post. Kudos.

Perhaps your solitary endeavor has sheltered you from this, but...

When you're in a team and you're the only one working (as this is literally the case), it doesn't make you a little bit ticked? Ticked enough to just go "If it's just me, then why are you guys in charge?"

It's not like I signed on the dotted line, receive any form of compensation from them, or they will be irrevocably destroyed by my departure. I wouldn't want anyone feeling like a slave to one of my projects so I shouldn't feel like a slave to theirs.

A quick look-see of Realm Crafter does not inspire confidence.

~J

I think the logic for using the engine is more economically motivated than artistically motivated. Not that you ever do much more than naysay Kage

But hey, with the bar set so low by SR the FPS, one could make spider solitaire with the SR logo on the back and it would probably feel less sickening...

You guys should try and look at it a little more realistic. Make the best game you can with what you have. Then show it to the ONLYpeople who will ever get to make a MMORPG Shadowrun game. Then they like what you have done, and hire/fund you to make a real game.

Realistically, you are not going to be able to create, fund, host, and administrate a MMORPG unless it is text based. But shoot to make a great game that a company with dollars would consider funding. This is not a shoot down I think you should do it, just be a little more practical about your goals.

EDIT: I am a writer and I would love to work on this in anyway. If you need my services just pm me.

Thats not entirely true...

Like I said in the other thread about this in the General Gaming forum - they can go the Multiverse route. They develop and administer it, but Multiverse would host it (with the associated hosting costs pulled out of the fees Multiverse collects for you of course).

Wow. That Multiverse thing looks interesting.

Hmmmm, given that, maybe we should do something like just make a manapunk game and in case microsoft sluffs us off (certainly, leaving the fruits of our labor up to the same people who think their current SR game is anything relating to good would be a mistake).

In the very least, it reiterates that now is the time to think big and go for broke on developing a community MMORPG

Multiverse is pretty good - though the tools are only in the alpha stage right now, nothing like crashing every 25 minutes when you're working on something.

That being said, I much prefer working on the new Torque engine.

TSE - Torque Shader Engine.

Granted its not a MMO engine, but it is a decendent of the Tribes2 engine so it has fairly robust multiplayer functionality.

Like I've said originally, the main impetus of this project is something fun in the vain of Shadowrun. You have tons of medieval styled MMO's, all pretty much based on D&D in some vein, no matter how deep you may have to go.

So what should our story idea[s] be? I was going to base the demo off a game module, if I could find any of those little books of interest.

Should we start with archetypal characters? Or develop a character generation system.

How shall we go about designing the world?

Please toss out scenarios suggestions et all!


remember, stay low

Isn't torque not free? (~150 a license, that's a bit much just for fun, extremely cheap for an actual engine)

We should develop our own set of mechanics derived from our preferred edition of SR and attempt to make a platform we could develop scenarios for endlessly.

The thread in the Shadowrun section showed that most people play Shadowrun to:

1) Interact with others
2) Assume a character

Aside from that, people enjoy carnage and the ability to cause it on others.

I would suggest that any serious conversation on features happen amongst only people who are going to help you. Random people are gonna just come crap on your thread otherwise

I agree with the suggestion to go the TSE route. The Torque engine is affordable for the private person and license-free. There is already a free MMO module (for the TGE) that can be plugged in that gives you a day/night cycle and random weather.

However, before you get your hopes up too much I'm pretty sure Microsoft has locked up the rights to Shadowrun for quite some time. Kind of ironic that they own the rights to make games based on this very rich IP, then choose to almost completely ignore when they actually do make a game.

If the engine used is free or someone wants to loan me $150 until I get a good job again I'll be happy to loan my 5 years experience in software to the project.

I'd suggest doing a manapunk game rather than trying to do a Shadowrun game. With straight manapunk you can work to avoid licensing issues fairly easily, and end up with something that just needs some name changes and maybe a few graphical modifications to become an actual Shadowrun game.

Well I still think the goal of any such project would be to prove how much you could do with what little you have. Then go to Microsoft and say "think what we could do with real backing."

I have designed levels for Doom, as well as 200 page pen and paper rpg.

I think we're officially morphing toward making "Manapunk" instead of "SR".

At this point I would be embarassed to say to a gamer friend of mine "Yeah, that SR game for 360? Yeah, I play the P&P version of that"

Anyone wishes to throw their hat in, you should probably list your preferred field AND/OR expertise

Well if we go generic "Manapunk" how is it going to be like Shadowrun? Are we just going to change the names of everything?

Software Engineer with 5 years C experience, plus php, perl, and a few others. I've also designed a lot of runs and adventure modules for various games, although I usually do better when I take somehting someone else already did and modify it.

Differences from SR:

1) Still have summoning, but summon creatures instead of spirits. Let it work in a similar manner. I'm no legal beagle, but using a system based on services shouldn't be a problem. Have a few limited services available. I wouldn't have aid sorcery type stuff because that's a very SR concept.

2) Different names for everything. No Panther Assault Cannons unless they actual exist in RL.

3) Something hs to be changed about sustained spells, unless there are other systems out there already that let you keep up spells but they require strain.

4) The Essence stat and it's interaction with magic is a very Sr concept. There should be a limit to how much cyberware you can hold, but it should use a different mechanism. Tying it to your Fortitude (or Constitution, or Body, or whatever it gets called) might be ok.

Similarities to SR:

1) Drain from spellcasting is an integral part of SR, but is not limited only to Shadowrun, so shouldn't be considered as stepping on any toes.

2) Based on a team infiltrating and/or assaulting stuff. Preferably the content we do should be soloable, as that makes it easier to test.

3) Most of the cyberware could be ported over. If we use refresh timers on things like gun firing and spellcasting, then initiative enhancers can be easily modeled as dropping a percentage of the delay on all timers. For example, Wired Reflexes 1-3 would each drop 25% off of the cycle time on all timers.

4) Tech and spellcasting shouldn't mix. But without an Essence stat something else would be needed. Perhaps an increase on damage taken when casting?

5) Use social skills. Giving the characters a chance to, for example, take a dead gaurd's uniform and use it as a disguise based on an actual disguise skill could be really sweet. Likewise, negotiation should modify all cash transactions. Etiquette should increase dialogue options and Fast talk (i.e. Con) would allow for new dialogue options. For Con, perhaps an option on everyone that lets you try to con them out of money, but they scream for the police if you fail. Also allowing Con to help you schmooze past gaurds instead of fighting them should be cool.

I'm still in the process of downloading Realmcrafter, and I may have some more ideas after I play around with it some.

Wow, Thanks for all the input guys!

I'll be setting up a website this weekend with forums and blogs of its own that we can use in this project.

I deffinetly like all of your ideas and appreciate them very much.
Hopefully this can get started sooner than I thought.

Also I have found a bundle deal for RealmCrafter and Truespace,
I will most likely be investing in that before it runs out on May 18th.

Here's the link I was sent but it hasn't worked, maybe its just me

http://www.caligari.com/gamespace/career_rpg01.asp

Thanks again!

How should the game handle death? If we just have the character respawn somewhere it completely loses the feeling of danger that should be inherent in a cyberpunk / manapunk setting. Unfortunately, having death be a permanent thing makes an MMORPG really hard to play for people that want to keep the same character for a while.

I'm thinking that repawning might be the only real option, but we could put a limit to it somehow. Perhaps a drawback to when you die. I've got an idea rolling around in my head and will post it if I get to a point where I think it's workable.

Edit: No, the link not working isn't just you. It appears to be a dead link.

I think a time penalty would be what I would want. But I also think death should be rare. It is on P&P.

In plenty of other games you can be resurrected by party members, OR you can lose a % of XP and start at a pre-chosen destination in the current zone.

Yeah it's like other games, but its a good way to do it I believe...

but you could also use your "karma" or whatnot to keep from death

I was thinking perhaps a Luck stat that would partially mimic Karma Pool / Edge. Have it apply to all rolls by adding x (depends on what mechanism is used for success tests). When you "die" you permanently burn luck to arrive in the hospital, and also lose cash to pay for your hospital bills. Luck can be raised via experience (see below).

One way to keep death from occuring frequently would be to have most things deal stun damage, presumably because of the armor you're wearing. Critical hits could deal normal damage, or perhaps that could be restricted to really high powered guns and spells. In either case though, when your stun meter is full (or stun hit points are gone) you fall unconscious. You wake up in the respawn section of whatever zone you're in.

For instance, if you're in the Renraku Arcology's mall (renamed of course) then you wake up in the security offices. Any illegal or offensive gear you have has been confiscated. You can talk to the gaurd on duty to get out. The easiest route would be to bribe him (modified by negotiation), but different levels of etiquette and con would open up different dialogue options to possibly get you out free. One interesting side quest might involve getting some dirt on the gaurd so whenever you're caught you can blackmail your way out for free.

Speaking of experience, we should definitely follow a level-less system where XP is spent as it's gained. It allows for more fluid advancement then the typical levelling up methods, and stays closer to SR.

Shadow: the relevant frequency of death depends on the PnP game's GM. If this is to be a MMORPG, PvP will be expected. PvP without death would turn a lot of people off on the game. And yeah, PvP in an SR game is a bad idea in my opinion, but to sell you sometimes have to cater to the masses. In an ideal world there would be a choice between PvP and non-PvP servers so everyone could be happy.

Here is my idea about death:

I think that death can be resolved with a Doc Wagon contract...!

You can purchase Doc Wagon contracts to get a certain number of free resurrections and respawn at an hospital. Of course, depending on what type of contract you have (Standard, Gold, Platinum), You might have to pay a certain fee in extra.

If you don't have a Doc Wagon contract, you can maybe respawn in an hospital and have a big penalty to your karma.

What do you think about this?

I think handling death in with the "docWagon" paradigm would be pretty good. It would also be a good reason for some of the penalties imposed for dying in most MMOs

I don't quite believe I'm typing this, but...

I think we should seriously consider leaving Astral Space out of things as far as a traversable destination (so, leave it in, but Perception and Projection on the part of player characters should be evaluated based on the platform's ability to support it and the time/effort requirement of putting it in). I would be the first to say that an SR game NEEDS shadowrun, but if we, as amateurs, can back away from a potentially awful implementation problem by just excluding it form our universe for now, I'd be willing to say a Manapunk game doesn't NEED that part of shadowrun.

So, everyone posting here is going to message Ori0n and say what part of the project they would like to work on right?

I'm having a bit of trouble understanding what you mean by including astral space without including perception or projection. Would it then just be something that is referred to?

Yeah, Docwagon contracts are a good idea. Make sure that they're available to starting players -- in MMOs player deaths often occur on a bathtub curve: a lot when they're new, a fairly steady amount in the middle, and more late in the game as they run out of ways to advance their character and seek to further advance their equipment by taking on bigger challenges. Inasmuch as Shadowrun/manapunk probably wouldn't have levels per se, there would be less ... hmm, "capability curve", I'd call it, to get over, but a similar trend would probably appear with regards to overall player experience.

I think the Doc Wagon is a great way to handle the thematics of death. When you die though there should be a time penalty, not money or karma, just time that you can't play the character. Call it healing time. You are free to play another character, just not the one who died.

I'm not so sure about that. How much time are we talking about here? Most MMOs have some degree of player vs. player competition, and if the time limit is too long, the inevitable PKers and gankers will be really annoying.

An MMORPG without PvP capabilities will not sell. A game without advancement will not sell. Gamers these days like to learn new stuff and use it on other gamers.

Well thank gosh were not trying to make a game that sells. Lets make a game thats fun to play. The great thing about SR3 is that out of the box, starting character kick butt. I never really worry about advencement becasue it is the adventure that brings me back, not the need for more karma.

"Astral Space", or some place full of living energy where spirits live parallel to our own, could be used to explain how our spirits (or whatever) and magic are able to manifest in the real world. For instance, "The Weave" in Forgotten Realms is easily likened to Astral Space except there is no access to it (D&D does confuse this analogy by having spells that cause astral projection-like states, so don't over analyze my attempted relation).

I think we should pull together a team of writers to figure out the universe. Anyone interested, please PM me with a blurb on your "direction" with the fiction and your experience writing.

Other than those members, everyone else can mince about the world. I have a couple starter questions:

1) Do we want to be on earth? We could be in pretty much any fantasy universe, just fast forward to ultra-computers and cyberlimbs

2) What is the role of "metahumans"? (will we have them, what will they be, etc)

I'd be glad to help to this project, I've got 2 years C++. I'm a SDET by trade, so I can do dev work or testing work.

I was speaking with a co-worker about this and I had some great ideas.


1. Character starting should be nearly as strong as a character who has been on for a year.

2. Starting Gear should be just as good as veteran gear. I.E. A Colt Manhunter purchased by a newbie is just as good as one purchased by a experienced player.

3. Monsters, NPC's, and the like shoudl have a uniform stat like they do in the SR books. No "level 60's". Some monsters will be tougher than others (just like it is).

4. You should be able to do anything you want. Walk down the street and shoot NPC in the head. Great. But there will be in-game consequences (the star shows up and carts you off to prison and executes you).

Yes, death as a penalty isn't nearly as good as prison. Though, I would always make it possible to break out of the prison if one just knew how, had enough cooperation from other PCs, and has gusto

I don't know if I can agree with the concept of extremely flat character advancement. I think it would be important to emphasize that in this game "power" isn't as important as "interaction". That has mostly stuff to do with how guns are amazingly equalizers than the concept of eliminating a level-driven system in favor of a skill-driven system.

I want an interaction-centric, skill-driven game where the biggest indicator of power level is "who you know, not what you know" and, naturally, what you have done.

Any other opinions?

I would actually say that I was attempting to imply that other races could be added as long as they had distinct advantages. Perhaps we could tap the metavariants. The easiest technique would be races that excelled by vocation so players might concentrate their abilities (which is pretty much the only mechanical reason for races).

I would like to see it as a tree. You make an elf, now you can play the elf sub types.

However, I think a limit should be put on how many are allowed. For instance, in Battlefront 2, only so many classes of the rarer characters are allowed. This helps and keeps people from all playing the jet pack guys.

Now say you have 200 players, and 150 make night elves, well thats just not realistic since night elves are the 1% of the 1%. So you would either need to allow limited Metavarients, or use them as rewards. I prefer the hard line and say limited.

The way to keep the first ten guys from making NE's and not letting anyone else play them would be that if you go so long without playing the character he becomes locked until such time as the server becomes balanced again.

We cannot eliminate advancement and if you do not get better with time we will not get any long-lived characters which means no long-lived players. You also won't eliminate the unbalancing associated with panther assault cannons, some weapons are just better than others. Taking such a lemma to its extreme: why have unique characters at all if it threatens game balance?

I must agree that PvP can be fun. Gankers certainly prey upon its open availability, so it being possible while just walking around certainly blows. Suppose you were on a run. One player could be hired to defend a target while one person is hired to eliminate it. That would be a totally legitimate (and highly fun IMO) PvP situation.

Controlling populations by limiting classes and races seems like a good idea, but much like eugenics in the real world, people will ultimately just find it appalling. Such as in the rocketman scenario, there is no guarentee that every player will get a chance to play every type if the types are given away first-come-first-serve. You might pull something off with changing servers based on population, but that also cuts out a big deal of community building associated with people having "home servers" for a group of friends.

One possibly workable solution would be to control the demand for types instead of the supply. If a server is overrun with elven mages, start stressing the jobs elven mages cannot accomplish.

An interesting supply-side solution would be instilling racism in the NPCs. For instance, in the real world bigotry crops up when a single minority is seen as growing in the face of the majority. If you are overrun with Elves all those human NPCs might be worred about the elves "takin' our jobs!"

That's a little hard to implement, because it involves kind of low-level content manipulation, but if it were built-in from the start it would be a hilarious occurence for NPCs to stage a riot against the PCs on a server to punish the players for glomming onto a type.