Does anyone have guidelines on how much runners (Begining, medium karma, and beyond) should be getting? I think I saturated the group with too much nuyen and now they've got everything they want (except those blasted Foci. I make them wait forever for those to arrive). The character advancement seemed to go far too fast for the cybered characters. Now they're bored with slow and none too rewarding karma advancement. To an extent I know that is the nature of karma, the slow advancement, but that's beside the point...
How much nuyen is too much nuyen? I'm not handing out millions here, but there's stilll a lot out there now.
Full Version: Shadow Income
A place to look for one perspective on this would be the SR Missions adventures. Those all seem to have a variable payoff (and threat level) based on the average karma of the PCs. You could compare the difficulty of their runs to what you've got going, and scale your rewards off of theirs.
Cyber characters will almost always advance faster than magic characters because nuyen typically comes faster than karma. However, Cyber characters will eventually hit a wall whereas magic characters have only the sky as the limit. In the start this can make things seem imba, by the end, its imba the other direction. Usually in the middle (lets face it, where most runners die) its about even.
However, to ease your mind, if you look at the pre-generated scenarios they have on the Shadowrun site you'll notice that runners typically get around 5000 after completion of the mission, not including expenses. (something like 2000 base + (TR x 2000) with net successes in negotiation raising by 500 each per runner) and usually a 1000 nuyen advance/signing bonus if you will.
And remember, ALWAYS be wary of high advances... usually means they are planning to off you in a set-up
However, to ease your mind, if you look at the pre-generated scenarios they have on the Shadowrun site you'll notice that runners typically get around 5000 after completion of the mission, not including expenses. (something like 2000 base + (TR x 2000) with net successes in negotiation raising by 500 each per runner) and usually a 1000 nuyen advance/signing bonus if you will.
And remember, ALWAYS be wary of high advances... usually means they are planning to off you in a set-up
Somebody has a sig around here that sums it up quite nicely. It goes something like "Face it, no one is going to shadowrun for less money then they could get by stealing a car once a month and having the group troll negotiate the sale to a chop shop."
Too much money is much easier to fix than too much Karma. For money, just start taking things away from them. Their car explodes. A combat they get into causes some 'ware to break and need costly, surgical repair. The team hideout is hit by a big, big missile.
Once you've got them to a reasonable level (for me, this is "continuous, insurmountable debt"), you can justify lower run reward prices by manipulating the local shadow market. Maybe they started running during a boom that's recently ended, leaving things normal again.
Once you've got them to a reasonable level (for me, this is "continuous, insurmountable debt"), you can justify lower run reward prices by manipulating the local shadow market. Maybe they started running during a boom that's recently ended, leaving things normal again.
I always think that my reward is somewaht balanced then they go and rob/loot the corpse of every NPC involved. THe fenced valuables sometimes surpass the mission loot.
| QUOTE (Samaels Ghost) |
| I always think that my reward is somewaht balanced then they go and rob/loot the corpse of every NPC involved. THe fenced valuables sometimes surpass the mission loot. |
That's some instant Notoriety, right there, is they callously loot the dead every chance they get. Not only for essentially "playing with dead people", but also because it gives them a certain "squatter air" that would be rather looked down upon in more professional circles. Give them a bad reputation.
Also remember, you're giving them time to loot everyone. If there's a bunch of bodies around, there was probably a lot of noise created during the events that caused those corpses to make the transition. That's gonna draw attention. Some of that attention is going to involve sirens.
Also, are you making sure you're fencing loot at 30% value?
as far as 30% value yes.
My runner's are never too concerned about Noteriety
My runner's are never too concerned about Noteriety
This topic comes up a lot, and their isn't much agreement on an actual number. I have a system I use, which works for me (a search on the topic of runner pay would probably find it) but a lot of people felt was too low. Getting the right compensation is sort of a matter of trial and error and also group preference. If people in the group are bored and ready to quit that's a good indication that it may be time to put the game on hold for a minute and have everyone discuss their expectations and come to a consensus on what is reasonable.
well, there are several SR books with a lot of info on what runenrs get paid. In one case, the explain that a johnson lowballs you at 80% of what a job should pay, and is under orders from above not to go over 125% no matter what. Sometimes they pay in gear instead of cash.
Thing is, how a johnson works will depend a lot on if hes corperate, political, criminal, or some other independant. And it also determines what he is going to think is a fair amount of pay.
Overall, i think its best to pay the runners enough to afford their lifestyle and basic costs, or they can get a lower lifestyle and save up for better gear. IF you pay a team 5,000
per runner, then they can either live at middle, or at low with a decent profit. Keep in mind, some of those guys are going to want high lifestyle. Now think about who gets a cut of the johnsons money- does the fixer get a percentage or a finders fee?
I would say, take the money in the SR3 companion, where it lists most jobs from 1,000 to 5,000. multiply by (number of runners+enemys rating). so a 5-man team going against an average rating 3 opposition (predicted niot actual) should get 1,600 to 8,000 each for that run, with a median pay rate of about 3,200. a good rep should improve that even more. some noteriety may hurt (failed to complete mission) while some may help (brutal thugs? heres some wetwork).
The factors to consider, for the GM, is where is the money coming from? is it supplied by the johnsons organization, or is it from a personal account? And even if the adept face did get 20 hits on his negotiation test, there is a very finite limit to the funding availible.
Thing is, how a johnson works will depend a lot on if hes corperate, political, criminal, or some other independant. And it also determines what he is going to think is a fair amount of pay.
Overall, i think its best to pay the runners enough to afford their lifestyle and basic costs, or they can get a lower lifestyle and save up for better gear. IF you pay a team 5,000
per runner, then they can either live at middle, or at low with a decent profit. Keep in mind, some of those guys are going to want high lifestyle. Now think about who gets a cut of the johnsons money- does the fixer get a percentage or a finders fee? I would say, take the money in the SR3 companion, where it lists most jobs from 1,000 to 5,000. multiply by (number of runners+enemys rating). so a 5-man team going against an average rating 3 opposition (predicted niot actual) should get 1,600 to 8,000 each for that run, with a median pay rate of about 3,200. a good rep should improve that even more. some noteriety may hurt (failed to complete mission) while some may help (brutal thugs? heres some wetwork).
The factors to consider, for the GM, is where is the money coming from? is it supplied by the johnsons organization, or is it from a personal account? And even if the adept face did get 20 hits on his negotiation test, there is a very finite limit to the funding availible.
| QUOTE (Samaels Ghost) |
| Does anyone have guidelines on how much runners (Begining, medium karma, and beyond) should be getting? |
maybe have a look at my recommendations:
SGP p. 14
I suggest money/karma ratio of about 1:2000 which would be like this:
Average run:
3 evenings of 5 hours playing time
10 karma
20,000 Nuyen
If you (try to) play every week, thats about 130 Karma and 260,000 Nuyen per year (40 weeks per real life year)
Scale this ratio according to your needs, but do not go below 10,000 Nuyen for the average Shadowrun if you want to have some realism (and keep runners from stealing cars).
The way I see it is that should be easy-come, easy-go. Sure you can get a lot and a lot of cool toys, but the corps will always have more toys. And remember, if you're risking it, you can break your toys.
When gear starts breaking, they get paranoid about actually using that money on more toys. Personally, I'd encourage them to use on things other than bigger and better guns. Do personal things, expand your character, maybe take some time playing Mr. Johnson yourself. Upgrade your lifestyle, take time detailing exactly where you live and stuff. Tell me about your hobbeys - do you collect 2045 edition Ares Predators because that was the first production run? Maybe you use your to buy trid artwork? Maybe you waste it on Awakened wines and asian elf courtesans. Or else cheap beer and cheap ass, and lots of both?
Maybe you funnel it into things you believe are right? Send a wad of c-bills back to your little sister in BumFuck, New Jersey. Go on a climbing holiday, or something.
Shadowrunners aren't just adventuring machines like a D&D adventuring group. Very few Run for the thrill of the Run, and those are the guys I woulden't wanna Run with. Sure it may be exciting, but you also stand a good chance of getting killed. If all you do with your copious is funneling it into toys, then you need to re-examine your life.
That, or you're a Rigger.
should be easy-come, easy-go. Sure you can get a lot and a lot of cool toys, but the corps will always have more toys. And remember, if you're risking it, you can break your toys.When gear starts breaking, they get paranoid about actually using that money on more toys. Personally, I'd encourage them to use
on things other than bigger and better guns. Do personal things, expand your character, maybe take some time playing Mr. Johnson yourself. Upgrade your lifestyle, take time detailing exactly where you live and stuff. Tell me about your hobbeys - do you collect 2045 edition Ares Predators because that was the first production run? Maybe you use your to buy trid artwork? Maybe you waste it on Awakened wines and asian elf courtesans. Or else cheap beer and cheap ass, and lots of both?Maybe you funnel it into things you believe are right? Send a wad of c-bills back to your little sister in BumFuck, New Jersey. Go on a climbing holiday, or something.
Shadowrunners aren't just adventuring machines like a D&D adventuring group. Very few Run for the thrill of the Run, and those are the guys I woulden't wanna Run with. Sure it may be exciting, but you also stand a good chance of getting killed. If all you do with your copious
is funneling it into toys, then you need to re-examine your life.That, or you're a Rigger.
Thank you Serbitar and others. The Serbitar guides and resources are awesome BTW. Kudos on that!
I've been grossly over paying my runners.
I've been grossly over paying my runners.
| QUOTE (Geekkake) | ||
That's some instant Notoriety, right there, is they callously loot the dead every chance they get. Not only for essentially "playing with dead people", but also because it gives them a certain "squatter air" that would be rather looked down upon in more professional circles. Give them a bad reputation. Also remember, you're giving them time to loot everyone. If there's a bunch of bodies around, there was probably a lot of noise created during the events that caused those corpses to make the transition. That's gonna draw attention. Some of that attention is going to involve sirens. Also, are you making sure you're fencing loot at 30% value? |
I don't know about instant notoriety, and what if you aren't killing but rendering helpless/unconcious?
A) I'd much rather waste this chummers ammo than my own, so I'm taking his gun and unloading what he's got before I use mine.
B) This guy is out, no reason to leave a comm and firearm on him, he won't be needing it and if he wakes up / is set free he won't be as much of a threat.
Sounds more to me like the smart thing to do. Now if they are intentionally killing and taking more than they would generally carry (in example A, not dropping the old piece if they find a new one thats fully loaded, etc) then MAYBE. Also, if you feel its getting out of hand, keep in mind that you can put hidden tags on the guns that can be traced.
As far as the looting goes, I think it depends. Just about any team of runners will happily pick up unrelated paydata that they find during the course of a run, for instance. And if the guards are better armed than you are, or the security mage has some tasty foci, then it makes sense to grab some souveniers and I doubt anyone would look down on that...though security weapons should all be highly traceable, with embedded transmitters, and the runners will need to take precautions against that.
On the other side of the coin, stripping the opposition bare of every piece of salable gear and backing up your van to the loading dock to cart it off is tacky. Especially when it's gear that's commonplace for runners of your renown.
If the Big Bad Shadowrunners cram their pockets with all of the rent-a-cops' cheap 9mms, people will start to question how good they really are at their jobs, that they need to go to that much effort for a small payoff.
On the other side of the coin, stripping the opposition bare of every piece of salable gear and backing up your van to the loading dock to cart it off is tacky. Especially when it's gear that's commonplace for runners of your renown.
If the Big Bad Shadowrunners cram their pockets with all of the rent-a-cops' cheap 9mms, people will start to question how good they really are at their jobs, that they need to go to that much effort for a small payoff.
the thing is that Comms and what not a are common place. though individually they dont cost much, looting everybody adds up quick. add jewelry, accessories and others and you can definetly make upto the meager wages usually suggested for most jobs (in the 2000-8000 range)
Well, I see two schools of thought on that. You can either have Mr. Johnson pay extra for a no-looting run, or hound them so hotly they don't have time.
Really though, I woulden't be pissed if they scooped up extra comlinks on the way out. Most of them would be crappy rating 1s across the board. Hardly worth selling. Occasionally they'll find a gemstone. If they're taking the time to loot the guards' Fichetti Securities, they obviously feel they're not getting enough money. If they're scooping unrelated paydata or something that looks like a valuable prototype, that's perfectly understandable. They are, after all, in the middle of commiting felonies for money - what's a little extra Grand Larceny?
Really though, I woulden't be pissed if they scooped up extra comlinks on the way out. Most of them would be crappy rating 1s across the board. Hardly worth selling. Occasionally they'll find a gemstone. If they're taking the time to loot the guards' Fichetti Securities, they obviously feel they're not getting enough money. If they're scooping unrelated paydata or something that looks like a valuable prototype, that's perfectly understandable. They are, after all, in the middle of commiting felonies for money - what's a little extra Grand Larceny?
| QUOTE (Samaels Ghost) |
| the thing is that Comms and what not a are common place. though individually they dont cost much, looting everybody adds up quick. add jewelry, accessories and others and you can definetly make upto the meager wages usually suggested for most jobs (in the 2000-8000 range) |
Yeah. See, THAT is something that would definitely screw with your reputation. The shadowrunner ideal, as it were, is the no-nonsense, no-questions-asked, professional 'trouble-shooter'. The shadowrunning community (runners and Johnsons alike) as portrayed in the fluff-text and the novels like to think of themselves that way - dangerous professionals working outside the law, more like black-bag intel operatives than common criminals.
And really, nothing says 'petty crook' like coming back from every run with a swag-bag full of commlinks, Rolexes, and wedding bands to sell at a huge mark-down to your pawn-broker contact.
Some runners and fixers would avoid working with them. Most high-end Johnsons wouldn't trust them or want to be associated with their reputation...unless what they needed were a throw-away team that was supposed to do a bit of damage before being utterly destroyed, of course.
Screw that, Nim.
Shadowrunners are looking out for themselves, first and foremost. They don't exist as a black-ops team for hire, they're guys and gals of exceptional talent who can't or won't hold a legal job, and who want to make good for themselves.
They're out for , first and foremost. Screw professionalism. It dosen't (usually) interfere with the job to swipe stray comlinks on the way in or our. When it does, that's a problem; if it does not, no problem.
Shadowrunners are looking out for themselves, first and foremost. They don't exist as a black-ops team for hire, they're guys and gals of exceptional talent who can't or won't hold a legal job, and who want to make good for themselves.
They're out for
, first and foremost. Screw professionalism. It dosen't (usually) interfere with the job to swipe stray comlinks on the way in or our. When it does, that's a problem; if it does not, no problem.
| QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685) |
| [...] on the way out. Most of them would be crappy rating 1s across the board. |
As long as they aren't rating 5 when going in
.---
As long as looting the place doesn't interfere with the contract, i don't see how it could tarnish the reputation.
I always felt that shadowrunners should be well paid. Why would you choose a job that risks your life every day unless the income was something that you could say "yeah, just 50 more runs and I can retire in the carib league".
That being said, not all adventures a group has is a run with pay. Often times they're very low pay favors, freebies, pro bono work, or just being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
That being said, not all adventures a group has is a run with pay. Often times they're very low pay favors, freebies, pro bono work, or just being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
From What I read of the Shadowrun Missions they start at 10K with bonuses and chances for extra income along the way. With a run every week or so. Although this seems just a little low, personally I like to double the payout, but increase costs.
As far as looting goes, a little should be ok. Quick grabs of weapons, comlinks, and other relatively small items should be fine.
As far as large big ticket items are concerned remember that Stealth Tags are 5 for 20 with a signal of 5.
If the equipment was owned by a legit company. The question the runners need to ask is it they can get the loot discreetly to a wireless dead zone, before the Corp reports it stolen and offers the police a donation for it's recovery, if the equipment is worth the companies time and effort.
3rd had suggestions about coverting karma into cash. Was wondering if anyone thought exchanging 5K for 1 Karma saeemed ok.
with bonuses and chances for extra income along the way. With a run every week or so. Although this seems just a little low, personally I like to double the payout, but increase costs.As far as looting goes, a little should be ok. Quick grabs of weapons, comlinks, and other relatively small items should be fine.
As far as large big ticket items are concerned remember that Stealth Tags are 5
for 20 with a signal of 5.If the equipment was owned by a legit company. The question the runners need to ask is it they can get the loot discreetly to a wireless dead zone, before the Corp reports it stolen and offers the police a donation for it's recovery, if the equipment is worth the companies time and effort.
3rd had suggestions about coverting karma into cash. Was wondering if anyone thought exchanging 5K
for 1 Karma saeemed ok.
| QUOTE |
| That being said, not all adventures a group has is a run with pay. Often times they're very low pay favors, freebies, pro bono work, or just being in the wrong place at the wrong time. |
Heh. In my last game, when we started feeling like we needed more
we just started doing our own thefts. High end electronics, jewelry, cyberware... we'd spend a couple of sessions planning then make a hit worth a few million. Even after fencing it, we'd each net 250,000 at a minimum. Strangely enough, our actually 'runs' after that all ended up being favors. Or runs where we actually paid money to do the run. (Like the time we needed to steal a statue... did our research, did our planning, and didn't see anyway we could actually grab the statue and make it out of the TIR safely. So we just paid 1.2 mil for it. Yes, that's right. A group of professional thieves just bought their target. Embarrasing. Sigh.)
So, if you think your team has too much money, start having contacts call in favors (thought they'd get away with that loyalty 6 contact did they... heeheehee). Pay a ransom or two. Start making bribes a regular expense.
As for looting... sheese. How much time are you giving these folks to do their job? What ever happened to, get-in-get-out, 3 minutes till Lone Star arrives? Have them get caught sometime looting, that'll put some healthy paranoia in them. Or have the stuff they loot (level 1 commlinks, wedding rings, etc) have to be taken to a pawn shop, then have the pawn shop owner turn 'em in for a nice reward to solve the murders of 5 corporate security guards... A decent fixer (any connection rating over 1) isn't going to take in the random junk off some wage-slaves or corporate-marked guns. Once you've broken the looting habit, then torture... er, tempt... them with a shiny focus or two.
Opinions on looting vary from campaign to campaign. In some campaigns with some GMs, looting is frowned upon. In exchange the GM sort of informally agrees to see to it that the party is paid well enough upon success that rampant looting isn't necessary. Players and GMs both have to come to an understanding on nuyen/karma progression. 90% of the trick to "leveling up" is purely the management of expectation.
In Geekake's campaign he enforces a very gritty and resource corrosive environment. I never expect to hold on to too much money for too long. After a big payday, we regularly lose large sums of nuyen to "Murphy-Geekake's Law of **** Happens." Thus far our group (specifically, me) has looted almost 50 commlinks. Why? Not for cash. Setting up a secure commlink network for a team requires a lot of commlinks. Even if they aren't high grade, it adds up cost wise. We didn't take them to make money as much as to avoid having to spend money on them in the future.
So I have to make an OOC effort to point out, "Hey, I want to go for this item which costs X in the future." That way they know when you are building towards something, and when you are just hoarding.
In Geekake's campaign he enforces a very gritty and resource corrosive environment. I never expect to hold on to too much money for too long. After a big payday, we regularly lose large sums of nuyen to "Murphy-Geekake's Law of **** Happens." Thus far our group (specifically, me) has looted almost 50 commlinks. Why? Not for cash. Setting up a secure commlink network for a team requires a lot of commlinks. Even if they aren't high grade, it adds up cost wise. We didn't take them to make money as much as to avoid having to spend money on them in the future.
So I have to make an OOC effort to point out, "Hey, I want to go for this item which costs X in the future." That way they know when you are building towards something, and when you are just hoarding.
the only adventure for 4e I'm aware of gives 10kwith if done right a 5k bonus at the end, so lets say 5 runners you do it right 3k a piece. Not bad considering it is a fairly low threat adventure. Still how many runs a month do people expect runners to do I think 1 to 2. So you make a low lifestyle to maybe a medium lifestyle off of the low end low threat runs. Which seems about right to me.
I basically would say, begining runners can make enough to maintain a low lifestyle with ease or scrape by at medium.(1-2 runs a month equalling about 5 rgeand)
Experienced but not prime runners can make medium lifestyle easily or scrape by at a high lifestyle.(1-2 runs a month equaling about 10 grand)
Prime runners make a high lifestyle. (1-2 runbs a month easily making over 10 grand a month but probably not close to the 100,000 a month of a luxury life style maybe 25-50 grand)
I basically would say, begining runners can make enough to maintain a low lifestyle with ease or scrape by at medium.(1-2 runs a month equalling about 5 rgeand)
Experienced but not prime runners can make medium lifestyle easily or scrape by at a high lifestyle.(1-2 runs a month equaling about 10 grand)
Prime runners make a high lifestyle. (1-2 runbs a month easily making over 10 grand a month but probably not close to the 100,000 a month of a luxury life style maybe 25-50 grand)
As for looting well as long as it doesn't interfere in the contract its cool IMO. Actually not looting is a bad sign IMO. Pro's look out for oportunities to make cash as long as it wont interfere with there contract.
Now taken to a ridiculous level there can be problems you shouldn't be dragging a sack of loot behind you unless its filled with something absurdley valuable. There comes a point in a carreer where a guns value of 150 nuyen isn't worth the effort to lug it around.
Now taken to a ridiculous level there can be problems you shouldn't be dragging a sack of loot behind you unless its filled with something absurdley valuable. There comes a point in a carreer where a guns value of 150 nuyen isn't worth the effort to lug it around.
I don't have anything against looting per se, don't get me wrong. I encourage my players to loot, because running in my continuum results in a lot of nuyen sinks. However, I object, from a professional criminal standpoint, to rummaging through blood-soaked corpses in the middle of a newly-created abattoir while one of the team is puking and and another one is hastily muttering an Act of Contrition. For a fucking commlink. Then the sirens start, and your putting gore-spattered handguns in a sack.
No, sir, I don't like it.
No, sir, I don't like it.
Generally, I tend to give out an average of about 3 runs a gametime month, with varying degrees of risk. Much of it is even random as I just wing the whole thing. I tend to write down a general scream sheet, stat blocks for NPCs, and a layout. I level onto the PCs a problem without thought as to how possible or impossible it might be and throw it at them. Its surprisingly entertaining.
Pay is simply on par with how bad they want it, risks involved (that they know of), difficulty and so on. So far it keeps surprisingly close to Serbitars guide (I've never read that section til now.)
Looting is allowed, but the hard part is the fence. First they have to know one in the first place. Then they might have trouble fencing certain items... misc objects(Jewlery, etc) and cheap weapons/armor net you almost nothing (about 20%). Real useful gear gets you about 30% to 50%, but its also useful for the team (never can have enough gadgets.) And easily ID'd gear is insanely hard to fence. You have to sell it for almost free (10%).
Plus its not a good idea to loot if the job needs to be done quietly. Theft opens up larger risks.
Pay is simply on par with how bad they want it, risks involved (that they know of), difficulty and so on. So far it keeps surprisingly close to Serbitars guide (I've never read that section til now.)
Looting is allowed, but the hard part is the fence. First they have to know one in the first place. Then they might have trouble fencing certain items... misc objects(Jewlery, etc) and cheap weapons/armor net you almost nothing (about 20%). Real useful gear gets you about 30% to 50%, but its also useful for the team (never can have enough gadgets.) And easily ID'd gear is insanely hard to fence. You have to sell it for almost free (10%).
Plus its not a good idea to loot if the job needs to be done quietly. Theft opens up larger risks.
Here's what I said last time about SR4 run payments:
| QUOTE |
| The math for stealing Americars (or whatever) looks like this: There are 4 runners in our all singing, all dancing, car theft ring. Assume that each stolen car is worth 10K Y. The characters are able to sell it for 40% value (due to having a long standing connection with the fence, or whatever, I mostly picked this number tomake the math easy). This means that each stolen car nets each of the team members 1000 Y. The Atlanta, GA crime statistics say that there were 5,756 motor vehicle thefts in 2004. Assuming the same number of motor vehicle thefts in 207X and that the team contributes around 1% of this figure, then they would steal around 5 (some rounding here) cars every month, meaning that each team member would get 5K Y a month. For a team of 4 shadowrunners, stealing 5 'basic' cars every month is about as risky as a trip to the local 7-11. So, any run which would pay out less than 1K Y per runner and carries any risk at all is not worth your time. Next, we'll cover stealing a 'almost new' sports car: Assume that the sports car is worth 80K, the team can sell it to the fence at only 25% (hey, sports car parts are harder to move than econo-box parts). This nets each team member 5K Y. For a team of 4 runners, stealing a sports car is still not that risky. So, a run that carries only minor risks (will not involved any shooting, but will involve the acutal commision of crimes) had better pay you at least 5K Y. For most 'exciting runs' where you might have to commit capital crimes, the price had better go up, up, up. |
Remember that SR4 and pervious editions of SR have different economic numbers, in previous editions of SR you'd want to double these numbers as everything important cost more.
But why be a runner if you're scraping by? If you go through so much trouble to change you identity, disapear from where ever you came from and then , what, live on the streets? If your job involved people shooting at you EVERY time you went to work would you keep doing it if it only paid enough to get you a low rent crap-apartment and a little dough on the side? It has to be lucrative or else no one would want to do it! Only crazies that need to shoot people on a regular basis would want to.
| QUOTE (Samaels Ghost) |
| But why be a runner if you're scraping by? If you go through so much trouble to change you identity, disapear from where ever you came from and then , what, live on the streets? If your job involved people shooting at you EVERY time you went to work would you keep doing it if it only paid enough to get you a low rent crap-apartment and a little dough on the side? It has to be lucrative or else no one would want to do it! Only crazies that need to shoot people on a regular basis would want to. |
True, in most cases. Some of them don't have a choice. It's not always a matter of 'I'll give up what I have and become a runner'...sometimes it's 'I've lost what I had and I'm on the run, and the shadows are my best option.'
Still, if you're a runner then you've ditched your past life. New Fake SIN and maybe a little cosmetics and you're good to go. New life, no worries. Something crops up and you do it again.
| QUOTE (Samaels Ghost) |
| But why be a runner if you're scraping by? If you go through so much trouble to change you identity, disapear from where ever you came from and then , what, live on the streets? If your job involved people shooting at you EVERY time you went to work would you keep doing it if it only paid enough to get you a low rent crap-apartment and a little dough on the side? It has to be lucrative or else no one would want to do it! Only crazies that need to shoot people on a regular basis would want to. |
Best comparison I can think of is comparing a starving actor doing shows at the children’s theater, and working at the 7-11 as compared to say Brad Pitt. Those runners that make it make it big and retire to the carib league at 35 to drink margaritas are the exception, not the rule. It's that dream of scoring the big run that keeps fresh blood coming in. Personally I figure a runners odds throughout his career vary greatly and assuming that they average career of a runner who makes it to retiremnet is about 40-50 runs and I expect their chances would looks something like this:
70-80% of runners don't survive their first run. They ball's it up somehow and end up face up on a slab. This isn't because anyone screwed them over, just inexperience. Pay is going to suck at this level, maybe 2 or 3 K a run, with one run every other month or so.
Assuming they have a decent fixer, a runners chance of survival begins to go up after the first 4 or 5 runs. Their fixer will start grooming them to become a permanent addition to his/her stable and at the same time start trusting them with jobs from more experienced and reliable Johnsons lowering the chances they have of getting double-crossed.
Not only that but the runners are getting more experienced too. They are less likely to make stupid mistakes that alert security and turn things into a firefight. Pay at this level is much more livable though certainly not lucrative. 5 or 6 K a run with 1 or 2 runs a month. I'd say maybe 50% of runners who make it to this level survive it.
By about midpoint in a runners career (15-20 runs) things start to get riskier again. By now the runners have made some real enemies and may have a lot of "friends" who helped them get where they are calling in favors. They may even get approached by a corp Johnson and put on a permanent retainer, which is likely going to pay for a middle life style just as a regular stipend plus any money for jobs. On the plus side the paid runs start paying very well. 8 - 9 K. Survival rate at this level is probably around 30%
Towards the end of a runners career (35+ runs) they start to get into the bigtime. Chances are they've done away with fixers and are possibly setting up runs of their own. They are self-sufficent enough to get themselves out of trouble and have an extensive network of contacts and friends to get them out of trouble if they do manage to get in over their heads. By the time a runner hits this level he's probably got an 80% chance of surviving with single runs paying 15-20 K and up.
Wow, imperialus, that was EXACTLY the type of description I was looking for! Thanks
Haven't read the post (I know, terrible person) but I find that the easiest way to pay runners in a manner that keeps the game going but without them being able to "retire" (and therefore only end up running because you're playing a game) is to figure up what their lifestyle costs are, and look at the number of "runs" you intend to send them on throughout a given month in game. Once you have that, it's a good baseline for figuring out what to pay them. You want them to be able to make rent (unless they screw up 
) and have some money left over.
The "money left over" depends on the style of game you're running. Want them to have to save for stuff? Pay them lifestyle plus a little. Want them to be able to upgrade every run? Pay them lifestyle plus a lot.
Yeah, I know, not very scientific. But it has worked for me.
) and have some money left over. The "money left over" depends on the style of game you're running. Want them to have to save for stuff? Pay them lifestyle plus a little. Want them to be able to upgrade every run? Pay them lifestyle plus a lot.
Yeah, I know, not very scientific. But it has worked for me.
eidolon, that's actually not that bad depending on what those upgrades are.... 
| QUOTE (Samaels Ghost) |
| Wow, imperialus, that was EXACTLY the type of description I was looking for! Thanks |
np. It can be a bit of a ballancing act and the pay will inevitably vary according to the makeup of the team and what kind of a rep they develop but it's the guidline that I tend to use. A team composed primarally of mages and adapts will need far less cash unless they plan on sinking a bunch into ritual spellcasting locations.
I also figure the average career of a runner should span about 15 years. Assuming they start running at around 20 - 25 years old they should finish up at around 35 to 40. I didn't include downtime in my last post but there will be occasions when several months may go by between jobs as the PC's lay low until the heat dies down or just take a much needed vacation. Feel free to point out to them that runs are stressful ways of making a living and the occasional vacation might be an order. This can be a good way to relieve them of some extra chash in the process without the players feeling like they've been screwed of of their hard earned
It's also important to note that though most teams of runners bite it on their first few jobs most PC's should survive them without too much trouble unless they really screw up. It's frustrating to constantly be rolling up new characters and players tend to metagame a bit more competance than a newbie runner actually would. This usually takes the form of carefully chosen starting contacts, a half dozen fake SIN's and contigancy plans that realistically would probably evolve over a characters career. Let this slide, it frustrates players to no end to tell them what their character can't do.
Midpoint of their career though feel free to pull out all the stops. Have longrunning Johnsons double-cross them, get the Azzie Jaguars on a personal vendetta, ect. The players should be smart enough to survive by then.
One other thing you could do to relieve them of some of their cash would be to suggest that they look at some "matinance costs" involved with being a live runner rather than a dead or arrested one. This may include ditching their SIN's after every run and getting new ones, replaceing their comlinks every couple of months, moving just as frequently and all maner of other little things that come up when you commit crimes for a living.
I keep my players from looting unnecesarily by not giving them time to hang about. They also don't tend to walk around with bags marked "swag" so they don't really have the carrying capacity to collect all the equipment their enemy are carrying
At the moment they've not been running long enough to make many enemies, but as they piss off more and more people it'll become increasingly expensive and paranoia inducing just to keep living.
At the moment they've not been running long enough to make many enemies, but as they piss off more and more people it'll become increasingly expensive and paranoia inducing just to keep living.
I would say the average career time of a runner is 5 years.
Assume that a runner does a run every month. Assume also, that the odds to survive a run are 99%. He then has a 55% Chance to survive 5 years. Assume also that he is getting 20,000 Nuyen per run and is living medium lifestyle (5,000 NYen), He then earns 900,000 Nuyen in this time. Assume that he is only savin 50%, investing the other money in cyberware and other runner related stuff, he is getting 450,000 Nuyen, Enough to retire in the caribbean.
As the chance to survice is 55%, every second runner would make it.
Now some other calcultions:
(Further assumptions: Money earned to med retire: 1,000,000, medium lifestyle already subtracted, additional spendings (50%) not subtracted, earns you permanent medium lifestyle
Money earned to low retire: 400,000, low lifestyle already subtracted, additional spendings (50%) not subtracted, earns you permanent low lifestyle)
Average survivability: 99%
Runner half-life:69 month
Income per run: 20,000
Med retirement career length: 67 month
Chance to med retire: 51% (one in 2)
Low retirement career length: 22 month
Chance to Low retire: 80% (one in 1)
Average survivability: 95%
Runner half-life: 14 month
Income per run: 20,000
Med retirement career length: 67 month
Chance to med retire: 3% (one in 31)
Low retirement career length: 22 month
Chance to Low retire: 32% (one in 3)
Average survivability: 90%
Runner half-life: 7 month
Income per run: 30,000
Med retirement career length: 40 month
Chance to med retire: 1% (one in 68)
Low retirement career length: 14 month
Chance to Low retire: 23% (one in 4)
Average survivability: 95%
Runner half-life: 14 month
Income per run: 10,000
Med retirement career length: 200 month
Chance to med retire: 0.003% (one in 28,000)
Low retirement career length: 50 month
Chance to Low retire: 8% (one in 13)
Note that these statistics are not for punks and other low level folks. The statistic starts when somebody starts to do professional shadowruns. The surviability and payed money for low level stuff shold be much lower, as there are much more people who are desperate enough to do it. So the folks who are shadowrunners (s created from the standard rules) already went through a selection process.
BTW: I do not agree with imperialis explanation. Actors only pay with a bad job, runners pay with their life. The chance to retire (low) should be at least one in ten.
Assume that a runner does a run every month. Assume also, that the odds to survive a run are 99%. He then has a 55% Chance to survive 5 years. Assume also that he is getting 20,000 Nuyen per run and is living medium lifestyle (5,000 NYen), He then earns 900,000 Nuyen in this time. Assume that he is only savin 50%, investing the other money in cyberware and other runner related stuff, he is getting 450,000 Nuyen, Enough to retire in the caribbean.
As the chance to survice is 55%, every second runner would make it.
Now some other calcultions:
(Further assumptions: Money earned to med retire: 1,000,000, medium lifestyle already subtracted, additional spendings (50%) not subtracted, earns you permanent medium lifestyle
Money earned to low retire: 400,000, low lifestyle already subtracted, additional spendings (50%) not subtracted, earns you permanent low lifestyle)
Average survivability: 99%
Runner half-life:69 month
Income per run: 20,000
Med retirement career length: 67 month
Chance to med retire: 51% (one in 2)
Low retirement career length: 22 month
Chance to Low retire: 80% (one in 1)
Average survivability: 95%
Runner half-life: 14 month
Income per run: 20,000
Med retirement career length: 67 month
Chance to med retire: 3% (one in 31)
Low retirement career length: 22 month
Chance to Low retire: 32% (one in 3)
Average survivability: 90%
Runner half-life: 7 month
Income per run: 30,000
Med retirement career length: 40 month
Chance to med retire: 1% (one in 68)
Low retirement career length: 14 month
Chance to Low retire: 23% (one in 4)
Average survivability: 95%
Runner half-life: 14 month
Income per run: 10,000
Med retirement career length: 200 month
Chance to med retire: 0.003% (one in 28,000)
Low retirement career length: 50 month
Chance to Low retire: 8% (one in 13)
Note that these statistics are not for punks and other low level folks. The statistic starts when somebody starts to do professional shadowruns. The surviability and payed money for low level stuff shold be much lower, as there are much more people who are desperate enough to do it. So the folks who are shadowrunners (s created from the standard rules) already went through a selection process.
BTW: I do not agree with imperialis explanation. Actors only pay with a bad job, runners pay with their life. The chance to retire (low) should be at least one in ten.
I agree with your assessment Serbitar, I think the big difference is I was counting street punks and gutter trash into the equation. They are the reason why so many teams don't make it past their first couple of runs.
I think it really comes down to how you view the world and the runner subculture. If you envision a relatively small number of elite shadowteams being hired for the most lucrative of jobs then Serbitar's assessment probably makes more sense.
On the other hand I'm of the opinion that the only way a shadow industry on the scale that is implied by much of the fluff could evolve with people like fixers, professional Johnsons, street docs, shadowclinics and Shadowland ect. is if there was a constant influx of small and medium time teams that get used as "expendable assets". The corps arn't going to care if the teams they hire die as there will always be dozens more waiting for a chance to replace them. The number of truly elite runners should be pretty small but they are powers in their own right. Their survivability would be really good because they have the resources to keep themselves alive, most runners don't have that kind of pull and that's what gets them killed.
As for what draws most people into the runner lifestyle I choose to emphasize the hopelessness of life if you are SINless. Life is cheep in the barrens and there are a lot of people willing to do just about anything if it offers them the slightest chance to escape the streets. This is a society where you can and will kife someone over a pair of shoes or a soybar. I expect that a lot of young kids growing up in the barrens probably hear a lot of romanticized stories about runners hitting it big that they choose to ignore the other 500 runners that died so that Fastjack could make it to where he was. "It won't happen to me" is a powerful motivator especially when combined with starving, desperate twentysomethings. I expect that the corps secretly encourage this since it redirects anger among the more ambitious SINless and lets them feel like they are actually accomplishing something. Without the ability to go on runs a lot of that anger could turn into open rioting or rebellion.
I think it really comes down to how you view the world and the runner subculture. If you envision a relatively small number of elite shadowteams being hired for the most lucrative of jobs then Serbitar's assessment probably makes more sense.
On the other hand I'm of the opinion that the only way a shadow industry on the scale that is implied by much of the fluff could evolve with people like fixers, professional Johnsons, street docs, shadowclinics and Shadowland ect. is if there was a constant influx of small and medium time teams that get used as "expendable assets". The corps arn't going to care if the teams they hire die as there will always be dozens more waiting for a chance to replace them. The number of truly elite runners should be pretty small but they are powers in their own right. Their survivability would be really good because they have the resources to keep themselves alive, most runners don't have that kind of pull and that's what gets them killed.
As for what draws most people into the runner lifestyle I choose to emphasize the hopelessness of life if you are SINless. Life is cheep in the barrens and there are a lot of people willing to do just about anything if it offers them the slightest chance to escape the streets. This is a society where you can and will kife someone over a pair of shoes or a soybar. I expect that a lot of young kids growing up in the barrens probably hear a lot of romanticized stories about runners hitting it big that they choose to ignore the other 500 runners that died so that Fastjack could make it to where he was. "It won't happen to me" is a powerful motivator especially when combined with starving, desperate twentysomethings. I expect that the corps secretly encourage this since it redirects anger among the more ambitious SINless and lets them feel like they are actually accomplishing something. Without the ability to go on runs a lot of that anger could turn into open rioting or rebellion.
That's the thing, cybers are can only have 5.999999999999999999999999 essence of cyberware. EVER. Or they die. whereas mages/adepts can have initiation level 43 billion and still not be done advancing.
| QUOTE (Dudukain) |
| That's the thing, cybers are can only have 5.999999999999999999999999 essence of cyberware. EVER. Or they die. whereas mages/adepts can have initiation level 43 billion and still not be done advancing. |
That is true. And when your groups street sams (who are full up with all deta grade ware) are being laughed at by your mages (who have spent 5000 or more karma on initiating), then that will be a very real problem for you.
Question: Regarding essence being a limitted factor for high end sammies. Why wouldn't a GM house rule essence can be increase at say one third or one half the rate of a normal stat. Say the sammies have trained their bodies to accept more and more ware overtime. This would keep the players happier knowing there is end point for their character. However it would not make the sammies all powerful.
P.S. This is my first post though I am a longtime reader of the forums.
P.S. This is my first post though I am a longtime reader of the forums.
Generally because it is not canon at all. There are rules for being "alive" below 0 essence, but it involves crazy magic and surgery that are kept highly secret and the result is a cyber zombie that has so many problems staying "alive" you almost wonder why someone would bother.
The previous response was correct, also, but here's another take on it:
Adept abilities (for instance) have a constant cost. In order to get more and more abilities, the adept has to raise their Magic, and eventually will have to initiate in order to do so. The costs of the abilities don't change, but the total the character is allowed to have goes up.
With cyberware, it works in the opposite way: your maximum essence expenditure is a constant, but the essence cost of the ware goes down as you become wealthy enough to afford higher-grade gear. In the short and medium term, the effect is the same: your capabilities increase.
The problem comes in the extreme long term, because the Awakened character can increase their Magic without bound, but the cybered character with 5.99 essence of delta-grade ware is All Done. Given the costs involved, this isn't likely to be a problem at any power level where the rest of the rules still work...if your game goes to the point where this is a limiting factor, other parts of the rules will have already broken significantly
However, if you want to fix it anyway, the consistent approach wouldn't be to let street-sams increase their essence. It would be to introduce gamma-grade 'ware.
Adept abilities (for instance) have a constant cost. In order to get more and more abilities, the adept has to raise their Magic, and eventually will have to initiate in order to do so. The costs of the abilities don't change, but the total the character is allowed to have goes up.
With cyberware, it works in the opposite way: your maximum essence expenditure is a constant, but the essence cost of the ware goes down as you become wealthy enough to afford higher-grade gear. In the short and medium term, the effect is the same: your capabilities increase.
The problem comes in the extreme long term, because the Awakened character can increase their Magic without bound, but the cybered character with 5.99 essence of delta-grade ware is All Done. Given the costs involved, this isn't likely to be a problem at any power level where the rest of the rules still work...if your game goes to the point where this is a limiting factor, other parts of the rules will have already broken significantly
However, if you want to fix it anyway, the consistent approach wouldn't be to let street-sams increase their essence. It would be to introduce gamma-grade 'ware.
| QUOTE (Nim) |
| The previous response was correct, also, but here's another take on it: Adept abilities (for instance) have a constant cost. In order to get more and more abilities, the adept has to raise their Magic, and eventually will have to initiate in order to do so. The costs of the abilities don't change, but the total the character is allowed to have goes up. With cyberware, it works in the opposite way: your maximum essence expenditure is a constant, but the essence cost of the ware goes down as you become wealthy enough to afford higher-grade gear. In the short and medium term, the effect is the same: your capabilities increase. The problem comes in the extreme long term, because the Awakened character can increase their Magic without bound, but the cybered character with 5.99 essence of delta-grade ware is All Done. Given the costs involved, this isn't likely to be a problem at any power level where the rest of the rules still work...if your game goes to the point where this is a limiting factor, other parts of the rules will have already broken significantly However, if you want to fix it anyway, the consistent approach wouldn't be to let street-sams increase their essence. It would be to introduce gamma-grade 'ware. |
Actually, it wouldn't even be to create a new grade of ware, but rather new ware that has the same grades, but costs more and has more of an effect. Basically, rising technology.
So, now we have Wired Reflexes.
Say in 1 years in game time, they offer something else.
I'm not great with brand names or anything, but lets go with Tricked Reflexes. Yes, I know it is a stupid name.
Now, Tricked Reflexes offers 1Ag 1Reac and 1IP per level. It even has the same cost essence wise as Wired, or maybe slightly more. But the cost. Oh, it is tremendous. So, with rising technology, you allow your cybered characters to keep up with the adepts and mages to a degree. And it has grades all the way to Delta.
Of course, this really has to be balanced in game. But it can work.
True. Rather than reducing the essence cost for the same effect, you could increase the effect you get for the same essence.
Actually, it occurs to me now that we're talking about this that part of the lack of a ceiling on mage advancement is the SR4 spell system, in which you no longer have to learn a spell at a specific Force. It means that when a magician increases his Magic, all of his spells instantly upgrade. It makes the magician that much less interested in nuyen, and takes away one of his reasons to be out making contacts and looking for opportunities.
For the sam to continue upgrading, he needs to find sources of better and better 'ware. The mage with a Magic rating of 15 and 9 grades of initiation still buys spell formulas from the same corner store where he learned his first Stunbolt.
Possible house rule: go back to learning spells with a specific maximum Force. Don't bother charging more Karma to upgrade them, but do require the learning roll and something (some one) to learn FROM.
Actually, it occurs to me now that we're talking about this that part of the lack of a ceiling on mage advancement is the SR4 spell system, in which you no longer have to learn a spell at a specific Force. It means that when a magician increases his Magic, all of his spells instantly upgrade. It makes the magician that much less interested in nuyen, and takes away one of his reasons to be out making contacts and looking for opportunities.
For the sam to continue upgrading, he needs to find sources of better and better 'ware. The mage with a Magic rating of 15 and 9 grades of initiation still buys spell formulas from the same corner store where he learned his first Stunbolt.
Possible house rule: go back to learning spells with a specific maximum Force. Don't bother charging more Karma to upgrade them, but do require the learning roll and something (some one) to learn FROM.
That can be balanced with Insular mages not wanting to share new spells. Maybe make it so spells are not available on the common market.
If you are a wage mage, you might get taught a new spell as part of your yearly bonus, or some such.
In the shadows, you have to track down a teacher, which takes contacts, and nuyen to grease palms.
If you are a wage mage, you might get taught a new spell as part of your yearly bonus, or some such.
In the shadows, you have to track down a teacher, which takes contacts, and nuyen to grease palms.
| QUOTE (Shadowmeet) |
| That can be balanced with Insular mages not wanting to share new spells. Maybe make it so spells are not available on the common market. If you are a wage mage, you might get taught a new spell as part of your yearly bonus, or some such. In the shadows, you have to track down a teacher, which takes contacts, and nuyen to grease palms. |
Sure. But with no need to upgrade your spells, there's very little need to ever pick up additional ones. At least at present, the system just doesn't HAVE that many different spells. Your typical mage could probably go their whole life and never know more than, say, a dozen spells...half of which started play with.
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