A buddy of mine wants to run a Cyberpunk game but prefers that it not be set in the shadowrun universe.

Someone posted a link to one that had Psyonics instead of magic, but I can't seem to find it.

What are your suggestions to a non-ShadowRun Cyberpunk style games.

Seems like he doesn't like mixing up fantasy with his cyberpunk.

Well, there's the d20 Modern lineup of Cyberpunk (Cyberscape, which requires Future). It's not totally cyberpunk, but it's fairly close, all things considered.

There's also Cyberpunk, which is made by R. Talsorian games.

GURPS, I'm told, does well with Cyberpunk as well.

There's also Ex Machina (although the example setting on GoO's website are all post-cyberpunk), but it's Tri-Stat.

What's the Tri-Stat set like? I've seen Ex Machina and thought about picking it up, but I never take time to read through the mechanics.

A couple of Ex Mach reviews:

http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/10/10835.phtml

http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/11/11053.phtml

Personally I was never a huge fan of the Tri-Stat system, but Ex Machina is in many ways one of GoO's best books, and even if you never end up using the rules material I think that the book has a lot to offer, between the discussions of the cyberpunk genre and the four settings.

That first review is hilarious.

Thanks for the links. Unfortunately (unfortunate because I was looking forward to a different CP game, just to try) it seems that the mechanics are sorely lacking in depth. Granted, I'm basing that solely off that second review's short blurb on them, but still I am left feeling a resounding "Meh".

Any specific part? I've tried rewriting it, and it's damn near impossible to get to the game time of SR if you change the big stuff.

Problem is that, really, between SR, CP201x/2x/3x, and GURPS Cyberpunk (which was written by one of the original SR devs, Paul Hume) - SR's is the least batshit.

Oh, really? Then what, pray tell, is the central conflict, oh Enlightened One?

Alienation? Yeah... Please. Fritz Pappenheim covered that ground long ago in Alienation and the Modern Man - and that was based on an analysis of Marx. And no, I cannot believe for the second that alienation is limited to technology. It's shortsighted and just ignorant. Alienation is a symptom, not a thesis, of the genre.

The conflict would appear to be at its core about Power and Control - something which pretty much fits into the conflict in which I described. And something which was a matter of pretty much everything, including one's own self, humanity, place in the world, as well as the world itself.

I also said it was based on, not comprised of. The various punk themes (not just DIY, but all manner of them) fill all of the early books. And then somehow they just... Went away.

I'd like to know what your specific list of "all the early books" is.

The truth is, nothing really new happened in cyberpunk. The various science fiction elements and themes were present in preceding fiction. There were no universal common themes. If there was a unifying element to the fiction it was a pervading attitude and a sense of community - as demonstratably noted in the Mirrorshades anthology and the wide number of collaborations between group members.

CP games from best to worst:

Cyberpunk 2020 from R. Talsorian:

The world makes a lot more sense than most others, the system is fast-paced and rugged. Nice, strong system that gives you either a "weak state, big corps" environment with the US or a "jackboots and leather raincoats" setting with corporate Europe. Well-developed space setting also.

GURPS 3rd Ed from SJ Games

GURPS had a world book (Cyberworld, CW) and a Genre-Book (Cyberpunk, CP) out. Most of the Cyberware could also be found in the two UltraTech books. CW is a low cyber, big states take on the world in general and the US in specific (Thing the wet dream of Cheney's owners and Adolf Eichmann combined) Cyberware is new and often experimental. CP is a "build your own" book with some nice ideas and Cyber-Packages.

Cyberpunk 3.0 from Talsorian:

Sadly 3.0 goes into the direction of the bodily wastes known as "Transhumanism". The rules system is a modernised version of Cyberpunk 2020 as is the world. Some good ideas to plunder but still too young


Shadowrung 3rd Ed from "That company":

Easily the "worst game system ever" with a so-so background. Before the last SotA books the balance between Cyberpunk and MagesRUs was somewhat present and as long as you ignored whatever product came from the german side of "That company" it was playable in general.


Cybergeneration by Talsorian:

The worst because of the background (playing mutated children in a post Cyberpunk 2020 background) and the dumbed down game system.

I have read a ton of cyberpunk and the entire CP2020 manual and still couldn't run it. There's a lot of background stuff the manual doesn't get into, which means unless you already know your world and you're just looking for a backdrop, you're almost certainly going to go against the intended game world. It also suffers from tremendous power creep with the cyberware.

Birdy - are you being sarcastic about Shadowrun? If it's such a bad system, why are you posting on a Shadowrun forum?

Bah, you might not like the mechanics much, but someone that can say

Yeah, but they are tiny, how overpowered can they be?

Precisely. Shadowrun has done a very good job of largely keeping back the power creep in exchange for rules creep. Someone who has MitS isn't light years more powerful than someone without, but can be tremendously different, allowing him more options in play.

Ah, Power Creep, that's the right term. Power Creep is hands with tiny missles Rules Creep is rules for your own spells, initiation, metamagics, foci... You get the point.

Sr did get the point too.

Hey, just because I want to hace 8 layers of somtimes conflicting rules governing the mechanics of my character....No, wait, I don't want that.

But you like it! Come on, we know you do. We all do. It's not that difficult, just say "Hello, I'm Jrayoker and I like Rules Creep."

SAs aren't a clear advantage over WR the way the SL2 is over the SL1, or the way Artwinkulation is over anything involving not having Artwinkulation. They've got a slight advantage in that you don't have to turn them off to be non-twitchy and scanners can't find them easily, but they're significantly more expensive for a smaller benefit and they cap out sooner.

Validate, however, was one of those "I supersede all that came before me" things.

Edit: oh, and the vehicle stuff in SR3 ceases to exist when Rigger 3 hits the table. Then again, that's because the vehicle stuff in SR3 was pathetic.

~J

Let's see, I have Cyberpunk 2020 plus the newest installment Cyberpunk Ver 3, Shadowrun 1st through 4th edition, CyberHero (Hero System, 4th ed.), GURPS Cyberpunk, 2300AD (which did have a cyber installment), and D20 Modern's Cyber installment sourcebook. Of these, I am currently and strongly leaning toward Shadowrun 4th edition because of the rules system.

Other systems that might be fairly good and interesting are White Wolf's new WOD system which is similar to Shadowrun 4th (D10's in place of D6's) and Savage Worlds (fairly rules light, plays fast, and easy on the wallet when compared to other systems). The former might be interesting because instead of Dwarves, Orcs, Trolls, and Elves...you would have Vampires, Werewolves, Constructs (Promethean), and Human Mages...lending to a much darker cyberpunk setting. The latter would allow an enterprising GM to create his/her own world/vision especially for those who prefer less rules heavy games.

Just my humble opinions...

Oh, must add GURPS: Transhuman Space and Blue Planet (both regular 2nd edition and GURPS version). The former looked really interesting as a setting though I would probably find a different rules set to use (no knock against GURPS intended for GURPS fans out there). The latter I have run and my players have enjoyed though it has more of a "wild west" flavor than "cyberpunk." My only real quibble with it was the utter lack of underwater combat rules!?! (Blue Planet is set on a water world)