no mages aren't just mages. eventually any mage is going to see the benefit that a few karma and nuyen can do for cybering up his character.

for a SS disadvantage mage the cost is twice.

As I tried to show with the troll sam being uncouth. Just because it isn't called into play all that often doesn't mean it isn't a disadvantage and still there affecting the character.

One of the things I love most about the Adv/Disadv is the role-playing opportunity. To many times characters are limited to their "stats" and seldom see much further than the paper. Most games I've played, characters never willingly take a role-playable disadvantage. Now I see it often enough.

Also keep in mind that disadvantages can be bought off for twice the karma. So yeah he got 15BP now, but if he wants to cyber its 40 karma per magic (for lost essence) or he can spend 30 karma (if GM approved) to buy it off and another 20 karma to get back the lost magic rating.

Character 1, No SS = 20 karma + cyberware

Character 2, SS = 40 karma + cyberware, +30 karma to not pay it again in the future.

20 vs 70 Karma
At max you get 10 Karma per adventure (I break to 4-5 per session as some "adventures" don't end)


thats at least 14 game sessions vs 4

Its a disadvantage

EDIT actually its closer to 20 to 50 if the SS character buys off the disadvantage first, but as a GM I wouldn't allow that without some intense roleplaying and time between the two different purchases.

true. but the fact that they can still means its a hinderance. unlike a non awakened character who never could so therefore can't take a magic disadvantage

We'll just have to agree to disagree on that one. Not being allowed to do something you'll never do is not a penalty in my mind. It's like telling a child "stop hitting your sister or you won't get any broccoli for dinner." If the kid doesn't like broccoli there's no reason for his to stop hitting her.

I completely see where your coming from and agree.

However if said broccoli might save his life from cancer he might reconsider

True, but there is no cyberware that can give you anything you need to live that you can't also get from bioware or a cloned replacement organ. And even if there were, I think we can agree that it's an incredibly rare mage PC would take a combination of flaws that put SS and "must have cyberware or die" together. In that instance I would most definitely give them the SS points.

I'm not opposed to SS, just an SS that will never come into play because of character concept.

One of the main reasons to avoid putting everything on trodes, in contacts, and in earplugs is really simple and common: water.

Character takes a spill off the docks? Gets hit with a riot hose? The sprinklers kick in when the mage rips off a fireball? The floor in the burning building gives out and he drops into a flooded subbasement? Attacked by a water elemental? Just climbed out of the shower?

Trode paste washes off. Earplugs don't work well with water in the microphone. Contacts can get knocked out or fall out or washed out or get jammed back into your eyeball when you bump into the Three Stooges physad.

It's cheaper and there's no essense cost if you get a lot of stuff externally compared to internally. I try to make sure the disadvantages of external gear come into play occasionally.

see, even there, i think it's part of the GM's job to make sure it comes into play. if a player selects the SS quality for his character, he's basically volunteering to get cyberware at some point in the game--whether the character desires it or not.

Ah I see.

Than to that I say, If everyone else has cyberware, You NOT having cyberware is a disadvantage equal to how often the bad guys have it (almost always).

To say cyberware is an advantage, and then say its not a disadvantage not having any because they didn't want it anyway (and make it prohibitive cost wise to get anything decent) then I can't say I follow you there.

Its an advantage they could have (at normal rule balance) no matter what kind of character they are. For (15BPs) they're either going to have less or none at all. This is equal to a stat raised by 1 or an active skill at 3, at the cost of some insane (and cheap costs both nuyen & essence wise) gear that amounts to a lot more modifiers than that.

I agree no one should get something for nothing.
I dispute that not having cyberware is something of an advantage for 15BP

Not having cyberware is not a disadvantage because you have other things instead:

- higher magic rating or
- fewer geasa because you didn't have to offset lost magic or
- more skills, initiation, spells, foci, etc. because you didn't spend karma regaining your lost magic and

- more of other types of gear because you didn't spend money on cyber

You're not disadvantaged, you're differently advantaged.

yea but magic causes drain (and wound modifiers), its already got its own disadvantage packed in (not to mention sustaining).

So I can buy WR1 for 2 essence (I think) and a handful of nuyen

OR

I can cast a reflex spell, suffer drain, and take a -2 to all tests. (casting as a complex action, so no free action to switch it on)

And to you they're one and the same?

Also keep in mind it cost (oddly) 15BP just to make a mage.

Include the BP cost of spells, focus binding, spirits, and magic attribute and I still don't see where your finding an imbalance.

I.E.

I can make a BP expensive mage with some cyberware
OR
I can make a more BP expensive mage with no cyberware.

Sum = 0

That Wired Reflexes 2 is costing you a permanent -2 to all magic tests, and you can't just drop it like you can Increase Reflexes, so that -2 dice penalty is with you until you die or accept a couple of geasa. You also only get +2 reaction and +1 IP. Increase Reflexes can give you +3 IP. For a mage, Increase Reflexes is often vastly superior to Wired Reflexes, especially with a sustaining focus.

I guess the "I can make a more BP expensive mage with no cyberware" confused me. How does not having cyberware make you more expensive?

I'll try one more time.


A Mage can spend less BP on resources since he doesn't need as much cyber/gear, and use those points for more magic (most would). More magic = less cyberware.

Now that same mage takes the SS Disadvantage for 15 BP (and knows he wasn't gonna buy any/much cyberware). He uses this to get MORE resources to buy...gear.

Or a contact.. OR more magic.

So back to your kid analogy:

Kid throws a fit in a movie theater so they say "you want to come back it'll cost you double the price!". He leaves the theater and finds a shiny silver dollar (since he got kicked out).

But its some crappy movie theater he didn't like anyway. He got a dollar for free!

One day the kid grows up and wants to go to the movies with his date, He's older now and realizes the folly of his ways, but he still has to pay double (theres only one theater in town).

Or

He never goes to the movies again (not a real disadvantage these days, but i'm straining here) and says he didn't want to anyway. (sour grapes).

So either he pays double or never sees a movie again.

For his trouble he gets a dollar (far less than the cost of doubling admission)

Its a trade off

Try this though since it still bugs the hell out of you.....reduce the BP bonus for it. Is it worth it for 10 BP?

If I have cybereyes and you don't and were both in the dark you get a -6 and I get a -3.

Who's disadvantaged?

How cheap are cybereyes?

You could say "hey I got goggles", are they on your head and activated when the guy ambushes you from down a dark alley?

There are thousands of situations where no cyberware = disadvantage.

Try sitting for 2-3 Initiative Passes while everyone else gets to go again, and again.

again, can't refute most of that.

But honestly if you don't see having no cyberware as a disadvantage there is no analogy (good or bad) that will convince you.

I think that a reflex spell takes a complex action
and since it's considered gaining IP's, the mage won't get them till next turn.

"Trouble down the alley"

Sam - Free action, WR2 on, bang bang, bang bang, bang bang

Mage - uses first and only IP to cast reflex, suffers drain, -2 dice pool for sustaining, no other actions.

Next turn

Sam - blows on barrel of gun

Mage - "My head hurts"


Magic has its own balance (plus and minus). Cyberware is balanced by only two things money (the least of the two) and essence (most of the two).

SS Mage doesn't NEED cyberware, but you can't argue he wouldn't be more effective WITH cyberware.

If he wants to be more than the guy deciding whether to fireball now or cast reflexes and wait till next turn, he'll probably want some.

Though I agree only some mages would want a lot of cyberware, the inverse is a lot of mages would want some cyberware.

So its either 2x the essence cost (unreplacable by any means) or 10 times the cost.

Balanced to me.

James: The only microphones I'm seeing listed there that work properly when there's water *in* them are the ones listed as "hydrophones." Being waterproof isn't quite the same thing as "works under water."

Sunglasses or goggles are great, right up until you get hit in the face with something (like high-pressure water) or want to, say, cast a spell using a vision mode built into the glasses.

I'd missed out on nano trode tattoos. That would handle the washoff problem. I didn't know they made waterproof paints to put on people

Wiseman: again, your spells are already active. There's no reason to cast increase reflexes because you have it in a focus. The penalties inherent in getting Wired Reflexes (-2 to all magic tests) make it a poor comparison for mages. There are other better comparisons, and there are indeed ways taht cyberware makes you better, but you also lose dice on every test you make, and can replace those cyberware benefits with spells or regular gear. So no, there's probably no analogy that will convince me, because there's no analogy that is close enough to the topic at hand and can't be looked at from a different perspective.

Nah buddy.

Your mage has enough warning to cast an active (already sustained spell)

and the SAM hasn't switched on WR yet? nope, not even close

since turning on WR is a free action he CAN turn it on and take the IP's in the same and only the first IP. Mage cannot. When both are warned well in advance, minor difference. When surprised, big difference.

If you don't see the value of skillwires, wired reflexes, smartlink, or a number of other less than cosmetic cyberware than of course the mage is making out like a bandit with those 15 BP

Way I see it the Mage must have Magician 15 BP
so he spent 15 (magic rating 1) to be a mage. Now he can up his magic, add some spells, bind a focus, and buy some cyberware.

Player two says I only want to be a mage
For his restriction on cyberware (making it really not worth it in terms of cost no matter if you look it at as unreplaceable essence or as BP's) he gets back the 15 BP's he spent to be a mage. Conversely he has a higher magic rating, and more spells.

Both players got to tweak exactly what they wanted.
Player 1 = Cybermage
Player 2 = Mage's Mage

Since we all know Mages/Magic/Techno's are bigger Karma sinks, Player 2's disadvantaged SS shows that either he (willfully) or his body (more likely) neglects cyberware and so he's a better mage for it.

Like I said, IF it cost you something just to be able to use cyberware I'd agree. But cyberware is a benefit to EVERY character right out the box, NOT having any and spending points to improve elsewhere (and giving up the potential to ever have any cyber of a decent worth) balances itself.

How else would I explain that my mage who focused solely on magic is a better magician than the one who added cyberware. (eventually even the cybered mage can be as good at magic as the non-cybered mage can, but the non-cybered mage will NEVER be able to have as much cyberware as the cybered mage).

whooo. I do feel we're going in circles on this one. As the rules are clear, you just don't like them as written. I can't make you like them, I can only offer the different opinion (based on the perceived value of cyberware to me) that its balanced.

Now to make this somewhat constructive. I'd recommend halving the BP bonus (similar as how they do the matrix disadvantages for non hackers/techno's)

Or as you stated, require the character at least take some cyberware to qualify for the disadvantage.

Bullets don't usually destroy gear, etc. Explosions might remove something nifty/useful (knock a gun out of your hand, shear the goggles off your face, etc). Getting firehosed will do something like that. Long falls into water, unexpectedly hanging off the side of a bullet train, or any other situation where you've got an awful lot of force being applied all over your body could result in a piece of gear being trashed or lost. If it's reasonable, I'll have the player make some sort of a roll to grab at the item as it goes away.

I've had called shots made to remove a set of ultrasound goggles in close combat... character going at it with an NPC in the dark, decided he'd be better off if the NPC couldn't see him.

think sorcel hit it on the head.

mfb - your right. but that is the point of adv/disadv to begin with. tweaking your character for the role you decide to play.

truce.

As for the sustained focus that has its own drawbrack of making the user permanently astrally active.

astral tracking (anytime of the day) and enemy mages would make this character cry.

sustained focus is like going on a run with the groups PAN's on active.

Not good..not good

pft...I know it's bio, but the sleep regulator alone is worth losing the point of essence/magic (at least if your GM occasionally realizes your team has been operating for 30+ hours without rest) and once you're down .15, there's lots of other goodies a mage could use to fill up the rest of that point.

I don't think a sustaining focus is as bad as an active PAN by a longshot, although it really dpeends on the situation. You can't be tracked by a focus, but you can by a PAN. You can't be pegged as magically active by a PAN, but can as a focus.

a sustaining focus is much more expensive than a PAN, though.

True, but not really material to the discussion at hand (unless I'm missing something).

Ah, sorry. So having a focus is exactly as dangerous as having a spell. Cool.

I personally don't use Ritual Magic as a player or a GM, as it's no fun. It isn't as bad in SR4, but no opportunity to test it out has come up yet.

I have worn contacts. I took them off once every couple of weeks to clean. 2070 contacts will be even more eye-friendly.

I've since had my eyeballs lasered, which means my eyesight totally rocks, but the effects of the surgery 20 years dow the road is compeltely unknown. &

...what did you do, in those contacts? because i had some pretty nice ones, but they still tended to wrinkle up on me at the worst times. and swimming was still a no-no, unless i kept my eyes closed.

Regular every day soft, daily wear lenses. I was supposed to take them out every night but didn't. After a couple weeks they started to feel gummy so I'd take them out and clean them. I'd get a wrinkle every now and then, but it wasn't often. Maybe every month or so.

I did everything in them, even swam, although I hid them under goggles when doing that. I've never liked swimming without goggles though, so that wasn't a change.

I wore them for about 3 years, then switched to glasses because they were easier and cheaper. When I started college I went back to contacts and stayed with them for another 5 years before going back to glasses and then finally Lasik.

I imagine 2070 Shadowrun lenses will be practically wrinkle proof and be made of something that snugly but safely attaches itself to your eye so they don't fall out without extreme circumstances. I don't know if they'd be water proof or not, but it wouldn't surprise me. Some sort of molecular level adhesion or something equally implausible for RL but totally fitting for the genre.

Dikoted monowhip contacts!

Heck, you'e a mage. Get yourself an ally spirit in the form of contacts with all the bells and whistles.

note: that last bit is a joke, although it could be a doable concept in the right game worlds.