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RiotGearEpsilon
Is there anything stopping Adepts or Magicians from taking the Sensitive System quality? It seems like a win-win scenario for them - after all, they've already got such a strong disincentive to take cyberware that the additional Essence loss seems almost moot.
James McMurray
Nothing but the GM deciding if it'll be an actual drawback or just freebie points.
mfb
nothing stopping you, no. i personally don't view it as freebie points because the possibilities of a lightly-cybered mage or adept are endless. other GMs may opine different.
RiotGearEpsilon
I admit that I too have been tempted by the glory of an Adept laden with sweet, sweet bioware.
James McMurray
It's freebie points because the character concept involves no cyberware. Kinda like Incompetent: Subspace Pilot is freebie points for someone who will never be pilotingi n subspace. If a negative quality has no negative impact it shouldn't be worth points IMO. I'd want to see at least a bare minimum of cyber or bioware on someone if they took the flaw. That way it actually costs them something tangible to the character.
hyzmarca
Believe me, if I were running a game I would let a character take Incompetence: Piloting Subspace Vessels and it would come back to haunt him. Nothing is quite as fun as going on a metaplanar quest and finding oneself on the bridge of the Starship Enterprise during the Kobayashi Maru and not even being able to default.
ShadowDragon
QUOTE (RiotGearEpsilon)
I admit that I too have been tempted by the glory of an Adept laden with sweet, sweet bioware.

Bioware is unaffected.

I do not allow awakened characters to take this quality.
toturi
Does canon RAW say no? Unless otherwise instructed by the book, I'd allow it. Never know when it will bite the character in the ass.
James McMurray
Do your street sams frequently find themselves on metaplanar quests. smile.gif
mfb
QUOTE (James McMurray)
It's freebie points because the character concept involves no cyberware.

sure, he starts out that way. but the flaw also applies to cyberware the player/character didn't plan on getting. it also applies to cyber that comes out later, which the player/character drools over. i don't count it as freebie points because of a) what might happen, and b) the options that it restricts.

i think i take a much longer view of characters, though. i get the feeling, from the way people talk and the various polls i've seen, that most people retire their characters after ~30 karma or so. i run mine for much, much longer. whether that tendency changes with the advent of SR4 remains to be seen, of course.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (James McMurray)
Do your street sams frequently find themselves on metaplanar quests. smile.gif

Never get on the wrong side of a Free Spirit with the Astral Gateway power.
Samaels Ghost
I play a Hackmage with that very quality. It is a big bummer to have to work around Sensitive system as I want all sorts of cool implants. Cybereye implants would allow me to better target foes with spells (I can't target foes I only see with glasses) and the internal comm is such a freakin' sweet idea. Cyberbrains all the way!

Also Shadowrunning is dangerous. People nowadays lose limbs in less dangerous jobs than Shadowrunning. That cyberleg could REALLY hurt you your essence if you had Sensitive System.
Jaid
QUOTE (Samaels Ghost)
Also Shadowrunning is dangerous. People nowadays lose limbs in less dangerous jobs than Shadowrunning. That cyberleg could REALLY hurt you your essence if you had Sensitive System.

yes, but you can also get biological replacements that cost 0 essence, iirc, and function at your regular stats (provided you're patient and have access to the resources, that is).
mfb
i've never liked that--at least, i've never liked how cheap and easy they are to acquire, not to mention the lack of drawbacks.
Ophis
They are aslo as yet unsatted in SR4, let's hope they cost more than the cyber version...
SL James
QUOTE (mfb @ Jul 19 2006, 10:49 PM)
i've never liked that--at least, i've never liked how cheap and easy they are to acquire, not to mention the lack of drawbacks.

Exactly. It makes a lot of things about the very existence and purpose of cyberlimbs irrelevant - especially in their price.

It also makes some canon things nonsensical, like why Prime Minister Daíshr Feizhir of Shaanxi still has cyber. I mean, it makes sense for some SINless scum. But he's a prime minister of a nation (one which I doubt would hesitate to raid the treasury for his personal benefit).

QUOTE (SoA @ 36)
Daíshr was severely injured during the revolt and survived only through extensive cybernetic augmentation. Watching him preside over parliamentary debates can be a little terrifying, as his artificial breather punctuates his speech with heavy mechanical exhalations.)

Okay. I can understand using cyber to originally keep him alive. But it's been decades. Does he really still need the breather? Why can't he just get some cloned parts? It's been years in-game by 2064 when he could have had an entire clone of himself made to harvest parts in a matter of weeks.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (SL James @ Jul 20 2006, 11:22 AM)
It's been years in-game by 2064 when he could have had an entire clone of himself made to harvest parts in a matter of weeks.

Why? He just could have undergone the SotA63 treatment called augmented healing.
After spending about two months in a jar while participating virtually, he would be as good as new... for about 20 grand.

That's the one thing I like about SR4 - they state that getting cyber replacements is outdated.
Edward
I would allow it. a lightly cybered mage or adept is very useful.

Even if your character concept is purist magical. Your taking a character mentality that removes that possibility and getting no advantage for it, I donít have a problem with you sneaking a few points from sensitive system.

Incompetent: Suborbital Pilot (which I assume is what was meant buy subspace) I would not allow because it is incredibly unlikely that you will have the opportunity to use it. where as even the purist mage will have the opportunity to get cyber wear and benefit from it.


QUOTE (mfb)
m the way people talk and the various polls i've seen, that most people retire their characters after ~30 karma or so

that can not be right. Have games fall apart maybe but not retire. Thatís only like 4-5 sessions if your taking karma right out of published adventures. We just ran threw paradise lost (GM updated for SR4) and earned 40 karma in 1 run.


on the point of cloned bio replacement parts (the ones with 0 essence cost) they may be available and they may be affordable but remember they take weeks to grow. Make the next run happen before its ready. For one run you must ether get a cyber limb (and loose the essence for good) sit out (and thus loose more money) or do the run with a missing limb (well thatís what my character would do, levitate, magic fingers. A frightening inability to recognize his own fallibility or mortality (and the GMs efforts to show me otherwise keep backfiring, we killed a dragon in 1.5 seconds).
James McMurray
QUOTE
i think i take a much longer view of characters, though. i get the feeling, from the way people talk and the various polls i've seen, that most people retire their characters after ~30 karma or so. i run mine for much, much longer. whether that tendency changes with the advent of SR4 remains to be seen, of course.


We tend to run ours until they die or retire, which has been past the 200 mark for some. I can honestly say that I've never seen a character who started without cyberware for personal reasons get any later in their career. By "personal reasons" I mean roleplaying as opposed to "cyberware lowers my magic."

Once the magic book comes out, Geasa will exist, which means that sensitive system is even less of a flaw.

This thread has definitely made me rethink the idea though. I'm not quite there yet, but not as vehmently opposed to it as before.
booklord
I'm very picky.

Incompetent I only allow if it directly interferes with the character. Of the archetype examples in SR4 I'd allow none of them. Examples of incompetence I would allow would be incompetence(binding) for a magician or incompetence(pilot aircraft) for a rigger-style character.

I'd say the worst of the bunch are the VR modifiers. Generally only hackers and technomancers go VR so for anyone else its free points. Even the SR4 book suggests GMs not allow one of them.
Thanee
It does limit the character; not a whole lot, but still. Maybe it doesn't limit a certain concept, but if you limit yourself with a concept, that's your personal choice, it shouldn't affect costs or anything.

I'm sure noone would object a street samurai with the concept, that no cyberware will ever get used to pick up that disadvantage, because cyberware is more common for them.

Maybe the point value of the disadvantage should be increased for non-awakened characters (or the other way around and lowered for awakened characters)? 15 BP really seems a bit low for anyone who is not awakened (or a Technomancer), for such a harsh disadvantage.

Bye
Thanee
booklord
QUOTE
It does limit the character; not a whole lot, but still. Maybe it doesn't limit a certain concept, but if you limit yourself with a concept, that's your personal choice, it shouldn't affect costs or anything.


A physical adept character specializing in unarmed combat takes.....

Scorched
Sensitive system
Simsense Vertigo
Incompetent(Computers)
Incompetent(Datasearch)
Incompetent(cybercombat)
Incompetent(hardware)
Incompetent(software)
Incompetent(Electronic Warfare)
Incompetent(hacking)
Incompetent(clubs)
Incompetent(blades)
Incompetent(exotic weapons(whip))
Incompetent(monowhip)
Incompetent(exotic weapons(polearm))
Incompetent(cybertechnology)
Incompetent(medicine)
Incompetent(Build/Repair Aircraft)
Incompetent(Build/Repair Ground Vehicle)
Incompetent(Build/Repair Watercraft)
Incompetent(Artisan)

At which point do you look at the player and say
"Go stand in the corner!"
James McMurray
First you bitch slap him for trying to take more negative qualities then he's allowed, then you put him in the corner. smile.gif
booklord
Remind me, what is the limit?
James McMurray
I don't have a book handy, but IIRC it's 35.
Wiseman
both advantages and disadvantages are capped at 35 BP

Meaning a technomancer who takes maximum disadvantages at most would get 30 BP and less if he took more advantages.

Its hard to define "free" points.

Hell, an uncomon moderate allergy (10 pts) would seldom come into play in real life. I mean who runs around with a uranium dagger to teach that uranium allergic guy a lesson?

but any GM worthy of his slice of the pizza knows its his/her job to make Disadvantages count. And more importantly, the player should expect to role-play that hinderance to its fullest. "Why didn't you tell me my special ordered commlink contains a uranium interface jack before I bought it? I broke out in a rash for a week and that hot elf waitress hasn't called me back"
James McMurray
Allergies are easy to work in. Sensitive System is not. To have it affect them tangibly you have to forcibly install cyberware in them. MAny other flaws are also hard to work in without seeming forced, like the various incompetences.
Wiseman
True, you'd be a little more underhanded/permanent forcing the penalty on sensitive system. But who really benefits.

Mages + Technomancers only really

Both require quite a bit of BP's to have even a little versatility and 15BP isn't a game breaker.

If you wanted something a little more obvious as a penalty, remember the part about characters with magic/resonance risking essence loss when getting doctors care? Double it. either the risk or the actual loss if they have any major surgery (I wouldn't double both). This brings it back into play and is more than a suitable hinderance for those with magic/resonance looking to benefit.
Moon-Hawk
I feel like, in order for Sensitive System to be a penalty, there must be some piece of cyber that the character might want to consider, but loses the option to consider because of the flaw. I think there's enough cool cyber that it is a limiting choice for anyone. Even if their concept wouldn't want cyber anyway, they're getting compensated for giving up the option. I think if someone's character concept was to play a Street Sam who only uses bioware most GM's wouldn't bat an eye at giving him the points for SS. I don't really see that as any different than the mage who's concept is a purist.
In short, I allow it. It's the Incompetance and Codeblock type negative qualities that I tend to restrict.
James McMurray
Street Sams lose a lot when they forego cyberware. Mages lose very little.
Llewelyn
I haven't played SR much prior to SR4, but in talking to my friends who played SR all the time I don't believe they every had mages or adepts that didn't get some cyberware at some later stage in their campaigns. This came up as one guy suggested Sensitive System and the two that have played SR a lot both said that it wasn't worth the points since everyone always ends up getting cyberware

In the campaign we are playing now there are 3 awakened characters all who now have cyberware. The ability to target for spells with cybereyes seemed to great to pass. As a physical adept being able to fit in both Bio and Cyber parts to maximize your characters potential seems like a no brainer to me.

I am sure that others may have different views as I would say our group leans more towards the power gamer side then perhaps others.
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (James McMurray)
Mages lose very little.

Okay, I see. Here it is. This is precisely our difference of opinion. I tend to feel that there is enough great cyber that giving up 1 point of magic for a carefully chosen 1 essence worth of cyber and bio is usually a often a good trade, and will be more so as more cyber books come out. I won't say always or even usually, but I definitely feel like it is often profitable and therefore, the removal of that option is a penalty, whether that option would have been chosen or not.
Obviously you don't, but at least now we fully understand each others' opinions. Hooray! biggrin.gif
sorcel
QUOTE (James McMurray)
Street Sams lose a lot when they forego cyberware. Mages lose very little.

I absolutely disagree. The thing about cyberware, as opposed to bioware, is that the "cyberware" category contains all the implants useful for communication, and the vast majority of implants that enhance sense perception.

For me, this issue is as simple as asking the question, "What is the most important asset a team of 'runners ever has?" The answer isn't guns, or vehicles, or even contacts. It's communication. The easiest way to ruin a run is to take away the team's ability to coordinate. This is especially true now, with the predominance of wireless communication in SR4. 'Runners will depend on their ability to talk to each other, and any obstacle to their communication is going to be a major problem.

A mage who suffers double Essence loss for cybereyes, cyberears, implanted commlinks, simrigs, even simple datajacks, is at a measurable disadvantage: he's dependent on objects he has to carry around on -- rather than in -- his body. And anything you can wear, someone else can steal... or destroy, or replace with a boobytrapped version. Heck, the mere fact that the mage's commlink is worn on his person makes it considerably easier to spot in the first place. And, finally, unless he's sporting trodes everywhere he goes, he can't benefit from anything that requires DNI, including mental commands to smartguns.

As far as I'm concerned, Sensitive System is worth at least the 15 BP it gives.

-S
James McMurray
QUOTE
Obviously you don't, but at least now we fully understand each others' opinions.  Hooray!  biggrin.gif


cool. smile.gif

QUOTE
A mage who suffers double Essence loss for cybereyes, cyberears, implanted commlinks, simrigs, even simple datajacks, is at a measurable disadvantage: he's dependent on objects he has to carry around on -- rather than in -- his body. And anything you can wear, someone else can steal... or destroy, or replace with a boobytrapped version. Heck, the mere fact that the mage's commlink is worn on his person makes it considerably easier to spot in the first place. And, finally, unless he's sporting trodes everywhere he goes, he can't benefit from anything that requires DNI, including mental commands to smartguns.


Apart from cybereyes allowing targetting, there is no real reason for a mage to have any of those be cyberware IMO. For targetting there's always racial abilties, mage goggles (for some) and spells that mimic anything cybereyes can do.

- Earbuds are tiny and unobtrusive, and not even anything that would get a double look unless you put your hand up to them and mumble like a Secret Service agent in a movie.

- I've never seen a mage get a simrig. I suppose it could happen, but riggers and mages are both very resource intensive, so combining them seems odd to me. I've also never seen a mage get a datajack.

- Losing essence for something you can do with trodes (nanopaste trode tatoos even) is not generally a good idea IMO.

- Implanted commlinks make no sense to me. It won't be long before they're out of date and need replacing, and you can get a commlink that looks like a belt buckle if you don't want people seeing it.

Obviously my group differs a bit from others'. smile.gif I've seen perhaps 4 or 5 mages with some cyberware in the time between now and SR1. None of them got a lot of it except the combat mage who was half street sam.
mfb
QUOTE (James McMurray)
Street Sams lose a lot when they forego cyberware. Mages lose very little.

yeah, that's the point i disagree on as well. i might agree that mages don't lose much in the long term, if they forgo cyberware--but if they forgo cyberware, they'll lack advantages that might very well allow them to reach the long term. in the short term, a mage who forgoes even the option of obtaining cyberware (or, in this case, makes that option exceptionally expensive) is, in my opinion, losing a lot.

the senseware, for one thing. yes, you can get goggles that grant thermo and low-light and magnification, but they're not as effective as the cyberware versions--and that lack of effectiveness can really add up, in a bad situation (in SR3 at least; if it doesn't work that way in SR4, well, i don't play SR4 anyway!).
James McMurray
QUOTE (mfb)
i don't play SR4 anyway!).

Which kinda devalues your points in a thread about an SR4 negative qualty's impact on SR4 characters and their relationship with SR4 cyberware. In SR4 there's no readon other than portability to get most things as ware. Even smartguns have lost the distinction between cyber and standard, both are now worth 2 dice.
mfb
meh. there's still a lot of other stuff cyber can do that magic can't easily keep up with. mainly in the area of multitasking: with cyberware, you can have a good offense (smartlink, bonus attack dice, etc.) and a good defense (higher damage resist, bonus dodge dice, etc.) simultaneously. adepts can admittedly mimic that, but mages really can't.
James McMurray
Unless they have sustaining foci, spirits sustaining spells, or other ways that magic has of mimicing almost everything technology can do (sometimes requiring researched spells).
Wiseman
I agree that for a mage to say no cyberware (or make it prohibitive by expense to want/get any) is very similar to a street sam taking a magic only disadvantage while having no magic score (something the RAW forbids) except that a character who isn't awakened would never feel the disadvantage at all, while the mage will always be prohibited.

Though not truly compatible, The mage can get cyber wheras the street sam can't get magic (this seems intended). Now during character creation this seems like free points for the mage, but its not.

Eventually the mage will gain karma, and besides initiation cannot raise his magic rating but so far (and at much karma expense), wheras cyberware's affordability only increases with more runs. This means it will eventually dawn on any mage that its cheaper/cool to raise his magic attribute after its reduced for essence loss for cyberware.

But with sensitive system, this is never the case as the cost to get your magic attribute back up has practically doubled.

A mage without sensitive system will eventually get some ware and then buy back his magic with karma

a mage with SS really doesn't have that option (or does but will pay out the ears for his "free" disadvantage).

Since sensitive system therefore limits the mages growth/versatility, I'd say a meager 15 BP is an even trade for a circumstantial hinderance.

Note that an Uncommon Severe Allergy gives roughly the same points, and by nature of it being uncommon would seldom come into play in a characters life (every adventure can't have the bad guy shooting balsa wood bullets because he knows the character has an allergy).
James McMurray
QUOTE (Wiseman)
A mage without sensitive system will eventually get some ware and then buy back his magic with karma

This is where I disagree. In my experience mages tend to spend their money on other things, like foci, to increase their capabilities. Karma is spent initiating fo new abilities, getting new spells, increasing skills, or raising magic.

Mages that do want cyber can (in prior editions) get geasa to compensate. Presumably that choice will once again exist when Street Magic hits the shelves. SS does not prohibit that.
mfb
QUOTE (James McMurray)
Unless they have sustaining foci, spirits sustaining spells, or other ways that magic has of mimicing almost everything technology can do (sometimes requiring researched spells).

all of those require the regular expenditure of assets (money, karma, stun damage), as well as prep time--and they're still vulnerable in ways that cyberware isn't (astral attack, mainly). cyberware offers dependibility, i guess is what i'm trying to say. you've always got it, you never need to put it on or summon it or cast it.
James McMurray
But you do have to pay money and essence (and therefore magic) for it. You can also turn magic off when you want, cyberware is always sitting there wanting to get you arrested for going to the mall.

In SR4 especially magic is a huge stat to have as high as possible, as it does more than it used to do.

Maybe I'll feel differently when the ware book comes out and there's more cyberware to choose from.
mfb
you have to pay money, but--especially in SR4--it's a trivial amount. the loss of magic is a big concern, and one that becomes even more pressing with a sensitive system.

anyway. them's me thoughts.
James McMurray
I agree. It just seems we differ on the magnitude of the cost inherent in lost essence. My group tends to think that losing any essence is a bad idea for amage, especially in SR4. As such doubling "a big hit" to "a really big hit" doesn't change much, as you stil don't want to be hit.
Llewelyn
QUOTE (Wiseman)
(every adventure can't have the bad guy shooting balsa wood bullets because he knows the character has an allergy).

You can only hope they do every adventure. I mean RAW on balsa wood is -3 DV +9 AP though I can't find the page right now, but I am sure it is in there. biggrin.gif
Wiseman
It used to be worse, but now you can buy back magic

Magic used to be = essence

now magic is seperate and is reduced the same amount as essence is but tracked seperately.

At some point even a magic 6 or 7 mage is going to realize: Hey I can lose 1 essence and magic, spend 18-20 karma and now be just as good + have cyber.

Or it can cost me twice that (as the loss was 2.0 instead of 1.0)

This means its a more viable option for the non-SS mage and therefore a penalty, whether used or not.

If the uncouth troll sam in my game has other players to do all the negotiation/social actions, did uncouth even hurt him? Yes, simply because there will be one time he NEEDS it to do something when they're not around. And hell uncouth is worth 20BP (25% more than SS).
Wiseman
QUOTE (Llewelyn)
QUOTE (Wiseman @ Jul 20 2006, 12:23 PM)
(every adventure can't have the bad guy shooting balsa wood bullets because he knows the character has an allergy).

You can only hope they do every adventure. I mean RAW on balsa wood is -3 DV +9 AP though I can't find the page right now, but I am sure it is in there. biggrin.gif

balsa woodchips in a frag gernade?

I think it would be more effective if it turned up as furniture at a very important dinner where the players are negotiating/some other social event.
James McMurray
You could instead spend 18-20 karma on upping your magic, gaining an initiate grade, or bonding a power focus, which is what most mages in my experience do.

It also seems we have different frames of reference. "even 6 or 7" seems to indicate that you see those numbers as high, whereas I see 6 as the starting number and 10 as high (not that we've reached 10 yet, as we haven't been playing SR exclusively).
mfb
it's not that they're high, per se--it's that they're high enough that you can afford to start expanding. i think another point on which we have different views is that your group looks at mages as just mages, concentrating all their ability on magic. i tend to look at magery as one area of expertise, of which a character can have several.

(amusing aside: i never play cybered magical characters. too much temptation to create truly horriffic combinations of magic and cyber.)
X-Kalibur
QUOTE (James McMurray @ Jul 20 2006, 12:51 PM)
You could instead spend 18-20 karma on upping your magic, gaining an initiate grade, or bonding a power focus, which is what most mages in my experience do.

It also seems we have different frames of reference. "even 6 or 7" seems to indicate that you see those numbers as high, whereas I see 6 as the starting number and 10 as high (not that we've reached 10 yet, as we haven't been playing SR exclusively).

That same mage could also easily afford to lose some essence/magic and pick up cereberal boosters (if they were hermetic at least) for extra drain resistance. Of course thats not really pertinent to the issue of cyber since bio isn't affected. Just thought I'd throw it out there.
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