i dont see uncouth as being anti-social, just lacking, very lacking on social grace. if anything i guess he will fit as the grumpy old redneck kinda person.

he may understand emotions, but even basic social acts like holding open a door for someone else is beyond him.

so i dont think he would stand around and watch someone get killed if it was a person he cared about.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/dict.asp?Word=uncouth

yep, for ones i looked up the word...

for the enforcer or bounty hunter it may be walking into some high end place in their week old working clothes, maybe with some blood on them even. they either dont care or dont know about even the basics of social expectations.

the hacker would be the classical image of its kind. pizza stains on the t-shirt, wild growing beard, not showerd for a week and so on...

Uncouth is not the same as "can't love," or even "doesn't care if people die." They're not even related. It's possible to play a character that way, but certainly not necessary.

Will the Uncouth team member left in the van be savvy enough to stay in the van during the meet.... time for that sedative laden glass of milk...

Unleashed, Jet Li. That might be an example of an uncouth character.

Antisocial does not mean unable to love, nor does sociopathic. It obviously works for you to play it that way, but that's a far cry from it having to be done that way.

The statement under discussion is that a "Low charisma character suffers no additional ill affects for taking the negative quality Uncouth".

Low charisma characters have problems in social situations similar to Uncouth characters, therefore there is no mechanical difference. They aren't going to roll much dice, if any, for social tests.

What is different between Uncouth and Low Charisma is that Uncouth is a Negative Quality. As a negative quality it requires GM intervention to activate or create circumstances to bring the negative quality into play. While the PC can introduce ro keep at bay a Negative quality through RP, ultimately it is the GM who determines whether a Negative Quality is in affect. Regardless of the PC's attempt to avoid the Negative Quality coming into play, the GM certainly can come up with a way to bring it into affect.

e.g. Hey, let's make Uncouth PC stay in the van. But the Johnson gave explicit instructions that everyone show up in person at the meet... oops social faux pas for everyone when Johnson discovers someone is in hiding.

As a GM, If you are not going to occasionally introduce and enforce Negative Quality affects in play, both mechanically and in RP, then you certainly shouldn't allow someone to take the Negative Quality and 20 BP. If you do allow Uncouth and the 20 BP, then you should ensure the effects come up occasionally.

It's my opinion the Negative Quality is well worth 20 BP. It's quite likely to be highly dangerous both to the PC, and to the team, far beyond what having simply a low charisma would do.

In contrast the low charisma character can get by because there is no reason for the PC or GM to really enforce any situations where the mechanics have any effects. And certainly it seems appropriate to allow RP to avoid those situations.

For reference, this is what "Unaware" generally does to skills. (Uncouth)

"Athletics Example: Couch potato.
Firearms Example: Never seen a gun before.
Technical Example: Shapeshift er, Luddite, or someone born before the Computer Age.
Social Example: Hermit.
Vehicle Example: Has never seen a car before.
Knowledge Skill Example (Academic): Mentally damaged in some manner.
Knowledge Skill Example (Street): Lives alone in a cave."

Compare to rating 0 (Low charisma + 0 skill)

"Athletics Example: Has played catch with friends in the backyard.
Firearms Example: Point the barrel, pull the trigger.
Technical Example: Can send an email, browse a Matrix site, or store data on a commlink.
Social Example: Th e typical man on the street.
Vehicle Example: Basic operator’s license. Can get from here to there, but can’t handle driving in adverse conditions.
Knowledge Skill Example (Academic): High school student. Screamsheet-level of knowledge.
Knowledge Skill Example (Street): Never visited Seattle before, but can fi nd it on a map."

One thing that hasn't been examined, what does 20 points really get you?

Honestly, it's really not that much.

You can get:
2 points in an attribute (for +2 dice to several skills, or +1 wound box)
A skill of 5, or a skill of 4 with a specialization.
100,000 To buy gear with.

You could get contacts, but you're already not buying them if you're Uncouth.

For any character who takes the Uncouth Flaw, they'll most likely get a few extra dice to throw. Considering that anyone who takes that is going to be MinMaxing anyway, they'll already have maxed their Shoot/Hack/Rig/Melee skills already. So they get a skill or attribute boost in a secondary area, or use those points to finish out their primary area.

It's not like they'll get a whole lot for it. Now they can't talk to save their life, but they're pretty good with grenade launchers.

I don't think it really makes much difference. Yes there is a mechanical disadvantage listed in the books. No it's not crippling. But you don't get much either.

Has anyone mentioned the fact that shopping for gear is a charisma + negotiation test with (availablity) threshold?

Good luck buying...just about anything, really.

and like i have pointed out again and again, mr charisma 1 can buy himself out of the troubles relativly fast ones he have got some karma gatherd. mr uncouth basicly cant.

not all disadvantages have to be in your face from the word go...
being a shadowrunner isnt about running a sprint, its about surviving a marathon...

Uncouth doesn't mean your anti-social and sociopath. Uncouth means that you use the F-word at a formal dinner party and don't understand why everyone is looking at you funny. It is a lack of understanding of what is and is not appropriate in a given social situation or, in the case of the Quality, an inability to understand these things.

and apart from long shot tests, it still stands that mr Charisma 1 and no social skills can make a test, provided he has bonus dice from something. give him a really good fake ID and he can con that guard into believing he belongs. give him, say, a street cred rating and he can make checks now, or even give him notoriety and he can use that too. get him some tailored pheromones, or any other bonus, and he can now make a check.

Mr uncouth cannot make a check, no matter what, until he has started to feel the pain of the negative quality by buying the skill. social skill modifiers are not all that uncommon you know... consider how many people will start off with a point of notoriety (including mr. uncouth, for that matter), and consider how many runners will have a point of street cred after they've gained 10 karma (hint: that's pretty much everyone who didn't start with a point of notoriety, and probably some that did start off with a point of notoriety)...

so within a few sessions, even if he hasn't done a single damn thing about improving his social skills, mr charisma 1/no skills will likely be able to make at least some checks, whereas mr uncouth/charimsa 1/no skills still couldn't intimidate a two year old.

I think the difference between a 1 Charisma character and an Uncouth character would at least entail roleplaying it more completely and more obviously.

At 1 Charisma, no one is motivated much at first to like you.

With Uncouth (according to RAW), no one likes you and your attitude probably won't foster a change in the near or even far future.

There's another thing to consider. Namely, that point-for-point, Uncouth/Uneducated/Infirm are actually highly *inefficient* ways of gaining points, especially when compared to buying Incompetent. Leaving aside the fact that you can skillwire your way past the defaulting issue in both cases, the fact is that you can gain more points with less pain by simply buying the appropriate Incompetences.

For example, if you buy Uncouth, you've gained 20 points and effectively barred yourself from 6 different skills. OTOH, if you buy 4 Incompetences, you can gain the exact same amount, and still keep certain useful skills. In this case, he might keep Negotiation and Con, so he can talk his way out of a corner and make it through meets.

The other "group incompetences" are even worse. Uneducated effectively blocks you out of *nineteen* active skills, plus all the Academic and Professional knowledge skills. For that, you can get the max of 35 points in flaws, and still have up to twelve active technical skills to choose from, plus the full array of knowledge skills.

Played right, these can be even more of a nonexistant disadvantage: let's say that you have a sammie who takes Incompetences in Aeronautics Mechanic, Cybertechnology, Medicine, Nautical Mechanic, Software, Hardware, and Industrial Mechanic. These are valid choices; but the catch is that you can't default to those skills anyway. Since the biggest drawback to the Incompetence flaw is that you can't default, this really renders the whole thing moot.

On the topic of the worth of qualities, what do you folks think of the Photographic Memory quality? Do memory tests show up frequently enough for it to be useful, and do you think the -1 threshold modifier is effective enough for a 10 point quality?

Charon: given that setup you are definitely correct in banning the quality. If there are going to be no differences betwenn the two, they shouldn't get free points.

Cain: gotta love that "GM approval" stage.

BlueRondo: It totally depends on the player. Some players never write anything down and expect the GM to remind them whenever they can't recall something. Those guys may wantt o consider the quality, because it's effectively three bonus dice on average.

Would photographic memory allow TM's to store data in their brain?!? (okay, I'm just being facetious don't mind me)

I would allow it, but on a very limited basis.

Any gamemaster that lets a play take the lowest possible Charisma and not suffer on a daily basis is a fool, and a poor GM.

Top that with uncouth (sp) and you shouldn't even be able to buy nerps because the store owners have banned you from comming in. No Johnson will stomach you, and you certainly won't find anything pleasant in corpland.

Everybody wants to play El Duche but no one ever puts thought to the fact that gun bunnies and salad shooters are the most useless archtype available. Wow, you can kill a troll sam in one adepted shot? But which trolls will you kill if the Johnsons won't give you a job?

Final thought, charisma is the difference in the cop saying, "Right this way, Sir. We'd like to ask you a few questions." and "How do you like the taste of this taser?"

Only awakened characters may take magical skills. Only technomancers may take resonance skills. I wouldn't allow any player to take an incompetency in a skill that he wouldn't even be allowed to take in the first place. Talk about free points!

You also have to remember that someone who is incompetent has to make tests for everyday things that the rest of us take for granted. Incompetent at software, make a Logic test to program your commlink.

Actually those are the best GM's, most people balk at the idea because 90% of gamers operate on the old DnD philosophy of "Who needs Charisma?"

Think about it, you put a 1 into charisma, you're not "The Loner" or "The Enigma". Those guys HAVE charisma. You are more like "The Slob" or "The Moron". You never say the right thing (oh but you try), you might just stink a little, or have a case of boils that make others not want to be around you.

So yes, you should suffer everyday for putting a 1 into charisma.

You know, if charisma could shoot a gun or dodge a bullet, nobody would go without it.

<<Yes already to the comments to follow, played right, Charisma can kill just as easily as a bullet>>

IMO the bad GMs are the ones that focus on beating over the head people that take perfectly legal low Charisma and making them suffer. They seem to me to lack the imagination or drive to give a positive reason to play a character with higher Charisma. The good ones are the ones that provide opportunities for people with decent Charisma and social skills, not just the maximized Charisma/social skills, to shine in their time in a game and have cool things happen.

If a game didn't focus so much on shooting then people wouldn't worry so much about whether Charisma helped you shoot a gun.

EDIT

A charisma of 1 (bare human minimum) makes your life a living hell, especially if combined with no social skills. This is true in real life, it should be true in the game as well. It can be mitigated somewhat by avoiding human contact whenever possible, but that also has its downsides.

I think "suffer" is a strong word for it, but I don't think the original poster was advocating torture. More advocating that the abyssmally low social skills inherent in a 1 charisma should have a negative impact on the character's life.

Does O;Brien live in a world where not being liked can get you beatings or worse?