According to the text, a possession tradition summons spirit whose materialization power is replaced by possession. However, the spirit still has the Astral Form power (as all spirits do), and in the description for the Astral Form power (from the SR4 book) it states
Full Version: Street Magic: Possession Traditions
| QUOTE |
| Critters with this power may manifest on the physical plane in the same way as astrally projecting magicians can (see p. 182). |
So, a spirit summoned by a houngan (Voodoo tradition) could summon a spirit as normal, and then have it run around on the astral plane and do all the nifty stuff it can do without actually materializing (still able to use powers such as (for an air spirit, other spirits may differ)Accident, Astral Form, Concealment, Confusion, Search, Fear, Guard, Psychokinesis, which are the list of powers for an air spirit that don't seem to require materialization)
Or, the houngan can have the spirit possess someone, including the houngan.
Does that sound about right, or am I missing something?
Some of those powers are physical in effect so need to be used while manifest... pretty sure Conceal is (iirc).
the spirit must be on the same plane as the target to use the powers, iirc.
thus, while the spirit can use those other powers, it can only use them on an astral target until it possesses someone.
thus, while the spirit can use those other powers, it can only use them on an astral target until it possesses someone.
| QUOTE (Derek) | ||
|
An astrally projecting magician may manifest as a spookyish image, which allows rudimentary communication with non-astral people. That is what is being refered to here.
What he said. Manifestation is only the ghostly image, allowing communication but no physical or magical influence on the physical plane. For that you need materialization or possession. So possession tradition spirits can use their powers on their summoner from the astral (movement, concealment, etc.), if I recall, but need to possess a vessel, living, inanimate, mobile or not, before they can effect anything else.
It should also be said that manifested beings are vulnerable against mana-based spells cast from the physical plane, so be careful.
Astral Form is intentional. Possession spirits may operate fully in astral mode, perform and function all astral services in the same manner as materialization spirits (we wanted to keep this as streamlined as possible). This means they can also manifest on the physical plane as Materializing spirits can. However, manifestation does not allow the use of powers on the physical plane (you need either Materialization or Possession for that) and does leave a spirit somewhat vulnerable.
| QUOTE (Synner) |
| Astral Form is intentional. Possession spirits may operate fully in astral mode, perform and function all astral services in the same manner as materialization spirits (we wanted to keep this as streamlined as possible). This means they can also manifest on the physical plane as Materializing spirits can. However, manifestation does not allow the use of powers on the physical plane (you need either Materialization or Possession for that) and does leave a spirit somewhat vulnerable. |
Thats what I was thinking; however, there are some powers that are iffy in whether they would work if the spirit is only manifested. Concealment comes to mind, I'm sure there are others.
| QUOTE (Derek @ Aug 12 2006, 05:21 PM) | ||
Thats what I was thinking; however, there are some powers that are iffy in whether they would work if the spirit is only manifested. Concealment comes to mind, I'm sure there are others. |
Not really. Powers require that the spirit be on the same plane as the target (same with magicians in fact). During manifestation the spirit is visible but is not entirely present on the same plane.
[edit] Serbitar is correct. Manifestation does allow for potential conflict, specifically as regards Mana effects. I believe this will be addressed in the FAQ.
The rule books says something different.
It speaks of manifestiation being the opposite of astral perception (an astrally percieving magician can be targeted from the astral plane, and it is the same, the other way round).
Allthough, there is an inconsistency, that the effect is discribed as "psychic". This was the case in SR3,where one could not "project ones senses to the physical plane" like mentioned in the SR4 text, where one is for example able to read a street sign. This was not possible in SR3. It is olso inconsistent that mechanical or electronical dvices can not record a manifesting person. This was, again, the case in SR3, where manifestation was not the opposite of perception, but just a kind of projection into peoples minds.
Actually, an astrally percieving person is dual natured, active on both planes and can affect and target both planes and can be affected from both planes. (see p.182)
This means, that a manifesting person is also active on both planes (as this is the same like astral perception, just the other way round). Thus a manifesting spirit can use powers like guard, and a manifesting mage can cast spells on people on the physical plane.
Maybe one should fix this rule . . . I hoped to get it fixed in Street Magic . . .
It speaks of manifestiation being the opposite of astral perception (an astrally percieving magician can be targeted from the astral plane, and it is the same, the other way round).
Allthough, there is an inconsistency, that the effect is discribed as "psychic". This was the case in SR3,where one could not "project ones senses to the physical plane" like mentioned in the SR4 text, where one is for example able to read a street sign. This was not possible in SR3. It is olso inconsistent that mechanical or electronical dvices can not record a manifesting person. This was, again, the case in SR3, where manifestation was not the opposite of perception, but just a kind of projection into peoples minds.
Actually, an astrally percieving person is dual natured, active on both planes and can affect and target both planes and can be affected from both planes. (see p.182)
This means, that a manifesting person is also active on both planes (as this is the same like astral perception, just the other way round). Thus a manifesting spirit can use powers like guard, and a manifesting mage can cast spells on people on the physical plane.
Maybe one should fix this rule . . . I hoped to get it fixed in Street Magic . . .
| QUOTE |
| Maybe one should fix this rule . . . I hoped to get it fixed in Street Magic . . . |
There are a lot of unclear rules that happen with dual natured and astral critters. For example, it says that dual natured creatures are astrally perceiving all the time (p. 287). But Astral Perception carries a dicepool penalty (p. 183) which I'm pretty sure that naturally dual natured critters don't suffer from.
For now, we know that "manifested" critters can't use physical powers or use their mana powers on physical entities. We know that Hell Hounds aren't supposed to be at penalties every moment of their entire lives.
It's just that... wel... the rules don't exactly say that. It would have been nice to get that squared away in Street Magic, but it didn't happen. Maybe we'll see it fixed up in Running Wild?
-Frank
Hm well, I know that the question was discussed in the German forums and that some freelancers were aware of it. It is kind of sad that it didnt make it into street magic as a clarification.
| QUOTE (Synner @ Aug 12 2006, 01:13 PM) | ||||
Not really. Powers require that the spirit be on the same plane as the target (same with magicians in fact). During manifestation the spirit is visible but is not entirely present on the same plane. [edit] Serbitar is correct. Manifestation does allow for potential conflict, specifically as regards Mana effects. I believe this will be addressed in the FAQ. |
Unifying powers and spell as equivalents would have cleared that up. It would also be easier because right now you have to try keep straight two similar but different sets of rules. Even when they are intended to be the same they are worded differently.
But that horse is out of the barn now, has been for a year. Best Fanpro can do is add it to the list for 2012.
| QUOTE (Brahm) |
| Unifying powers and spell as equivalents would have cleared that up. It would also be easier because right now you have to try keep straight two similar but different sets of rules. Even when they are intended to be the same they are worded differently. But that horse is out of the barn now, has been for a year. Best Fanpro can do is add it to the list for 2012. |
The problem is not powers or spells, how those function with relation to the plane you are on is pretty clear. Where powers and spells have the same effects there has been an attempt to streamline the mechanics .
The current problem is derived from the ability to manifest (which is neither power nor spell) and particularly the way its referred to as the opposite of astral projection which causes confusion when pining down exactly which plane the character/spirit is on.
| QUOTE (Synner @ Aug 13 2006, 03:32 PM) | ||
The problem is not powers or spells, how those function with relation to the plane you are on is pretty clear. Where powers and spells have the same effects there has been an attempt to streamline the mechanics . The current problem is derived from the ability to manifest (which is neither power nor spell) and particularly the way its referred to as the opposite of astral projection which causes confusion when pining down exactly which plane the character/spirit is on. |
But the core book does address this for spells. It isn't nearly as explicit as it likely should be, which is about par for the course unfortunately. But it is there if you follow through the text. Manifesting by itself does not allow you cast a spell on a target on the Physical plane.
Of course that could be wrong, given that offical intent has been shown to not match wording in the BBB. Recoil being the most blatantly obvious example.
| QUOTE (Brahm) |
| Manifesting by itself does not allow you cast a spell on a target on the Physical plane. |
The problem comes in with the line "Manifesting characters and spirits, however, are vulnerable to mana-based magical effects on the physical plane." (BBB p.184)
It breaks the expected symmetry, the symmetry that's there for the other planar targeting rules.
| QUOTE (RunnerPaul @ Aug 14 2006, 12:53 AM) | ||
The problem comes in with the line "Manifesting characters and spirits, however, are vulnerable to mana-based magical effects on the physical plane." (BBB p.184) It breaks the expected symmetry, the symmetry that's there for the other planar targeting rules. |
Yes, most definately it is wierd. Unfortunately they don't have a physical presense. Manifesting is sort of a limboland, which is why it lacks the symetery. It is closer to being a communication from the other side than an actual presense, but a line of communication that someone can stuff a M spell back down. *shrug*
P.S. If it was perfect symetry for act/be acted upon it wouldn't allow a P spell/power use, just M spells. Concealment is P. Confusion and Compulsion would the ones that are in question if at all if you simply treat powers like spells (which you can't, just like you can't Counterspell any power other than Innate Spell). Which would at first glance seem entirely workable. A 'ghost' being able to influence your mind to keep you from manabolting him or just trade manabolts, but unable to use any P powers like Engulf, Concealment, Elemental Attack, and so on.
| QUOTE (Synner @ Aug 13 2006, 03:32 PM) |
| The current problem is derived from the ability to manifest (which is neither power nor spell) and particularly the way its referred to as the opposite of astral projection which causes confusion when pining down exactly which plane the character/spirit is on. |
exactly
A manifesting person can not be target of a spell from a plane while the person is not able to target others on that plane with the same spell. This is the case in manifesting at the moment. A magician can be targeted from the physical plane with mana spells but the target cant shoot back. Such a state is not defined in SR4.
Manifestation should be a purely psichic effect, with no ability of breaking the plane barrier. Magicians should not be able to extend tehir senses and cameras should not be able to see manifesting people.
| QUOTE (Serbitar @ Aug 14 2006, 09:35 AM) |
| A manifesting person can not be target of a spell from a plane while the person is not able to target others on that plane with the same spell. This is the case in manifesting at the moment. A magician can be targeted from the physical plane with mana spells but the target cant shoot back. Such a state is not defined in SR4. |
You lost me there? The first part of the first sentence is throwing me, and then the last sentence too is confusing as in which part you are talking about.
Because in SR4 a manifesting mage can be hit by a physical plane only mage using a mana spell. It also appears from the text [edit:in the BBB] that the manifesting mage cannot hit the the physical play mage with any spells at all. Which I'm actually good with.
So what are you trying to say?
| QUOTE (Brahm) |
| Because in SR4 a manifesting mage can be hit by a physical plane only mage using a mana spell. It also appears from the text that the manifesting mage cannot hit the the physical play mage with any spells at all. Which I'm actually good with. |
That's exactly how it works. Manifesting is mainly for communication. It makes you open to attack without increasing your attack capabilities any.
i think what serbitar is getting at (though of course i may be wrong) is that it makes no sense that an astrally projecting mage can be targetted from the physical plane, but cannot target anything on the physical plane...
as i understand it, he thinks it should be either impossible to target in both directions (which i suspect is his preference, for balance reasons) or possible to target in both directions (which would be horribly game-breaking), and i can certainly see where he's coming from.
as i understand it, he thinks it should be either impossible to target in both directions (which i suspect is his preference, for balance reasons) or possible to target in both directions (which would be horribly game-breaking), and i can certainly see where he's coming from.
It's an easy enough change to add, but the RAW is that you can be targetted without being able to target others.
| QUOTE (Jaid @ Aug 14 2006, 10:34 AM) |
| i think what serbitar is getting at (though of course i may be wrong) is that it makes no sense that an astrally projecting mage can be targetted from the physical plane, but cannot target anything on the physical plane... as i understand it, he thinks it should be either impossible to target in both directions (which i suspect is his preference, for balance reasons) or possible to target in both directions (which would be horribly game-breaking), and i can certainly see where he's coming from. |
Thanks, thats it, that is the main inconsistency. (After you disregard the "opposite of astral perception", where a being gets dual natured, which is also an inconsistency.)
Af course this is easy to add/change. But it was not done, though the issue was dicussed extensively in forums. Also the indirect combat spell issue was discussed. I think there is something wrong in the communication between community and developers (Maybe the fact that there is/was no communication).
hmm, i wasnt aware of that "mana spell and manifesting entity" thing.
I think the vulnerability of a manifesting mage is an intentional limit to dissuade the "I stay home & astrally project to the run" types.
Note that hackers and even riggers are also encouraged to get their actual meat-bods involved in the run.
SR4 seems overall to be less of a "Joe's decking/projecting/rigging, everyone else - go play X-Box or something" game than the previous editions.
Note that hackers and even riggers are also encouraged to get their actual meat-bods involved in the run.
SR4 seems overall to be less of a "Joe's decking/projecting/rigging, everyone else - go play X-Box or something" game than the previous editions.
In the contrary.
Wireless matrix gives hackers the oppurtunity to reach everywhere without leaving home.
Mages can summon spirits of man and give them the sells they want, then let them manifest where they want and let them cast, for example, a controll thoughts spell.
Riggers can have drones everywhere if they want.
In SR4 there are really much more opportunities. But I think this is more an advantage than a drawback. Opportunities are always a good thing to have.
Wireless matrix gives hackers the oppurtunity to reach everywhere without leaving home.
Mages can summon spirits of man and give them the sells they want, then let them manifest where they want and let them cast, for example, a controll thoughts spell.
Riggers can have drones everywhere if they want.
In SR4 there are really much more opportunities. But I think this is more an advantage than a drawback. Opportunities are always a good thing to have.
(wireless matrix)
No different from earlier versions, really:
Before, you had independent systems.
Now you have wi-fi inhibiting construction (not to mention the relatively short ranges necessary to be out-of-range.)
Either way, you have to be there to do anything useful.
(spirit)
Good luck pulling that one past a half-competent GM - any kind of astral security(hell, even a weak ward) is going to FUBAR any kind of projecting-magician run.
Even if he doesn't kill himself summoning a different spirit every other round (since the innate spell power only gives the spirit 1 spell per optional power slot used,) his (surviving) buddies will put a bullet in his head for the lack of counterspelling protection.
No different from earlier versions, really:
Before, you had independent systems.
Now you have wi-fi inhibiting construction (not to mention the relatively short ranges necessary to be out-of-range.)
Either way, you have to be there to do anything useful.
(spirit)
Good luck pulling that one past a half-competent GM - any kind of astral security(hell, even a weak ward) is going to FUBAR any kind of projecting-magician run.
Even if he doesn't kill himself summoning a different spirit every other round (since the innate spell power only gives the spirit 1 spell per optional power slot used,) his (surviving) buddies will put a bullet in his head for the lack of counterspelling protection.
With the new rules on sneaking past wards, a solo projecting run (or several projecting mages) could be possible. Plus, can't the drain be healed back where ever your body is? Healing Golem or a Medic friend or even an Autodoc. Check yourself into a hospital even, then go!
No - actually drain can't be healed magically (though I'll be damned if I can find a reference now, except the "optional rule" in Street Magic (p.31) that allows magically healing drain for an easier game!) Stimpatches & Medkits would work, but with drawbacks - such as a second member of the team sitting on his ass babysitting the projecting mage, or a large number of trips back to his body.
Sneaking past wards requires a metamagic (two, if you have/need foci) and to simultaneously assense the ward-maker's aura.
Sneaking past wards requires a metamagic (two, if you have/need foci) and to simultaneously assense the ward-maker's aura.
| QUOTE (SM p.124) |
In order to synchronize one’s aura so it mimics a ward’s creator, the synchronizing magician or spirit must be able to see the creator’s aura to use as a reference. One way to do this is to track the astral link present between a ward and its creator |
| QUOTE (SR4 p.185) |
Following an astral link requires an Extended Assensing + Intuition (5) Test (interval: 1 hour), modified as noted on the Astral Tracking Modifiers table (p. 184) |
Just how much time do you have? Remember you die after (magic) hours projecting. Pretty limiting right there.
So they made healing drain optional without there being any reference to it not being allowed in the book? Or did they poerhaps mean to let you heal stun drain with magic?
Well the full quote under Tweaking the Rules is:
| QUOTE |
Healing Drain Normally Drain cannot be healed by magical means, only by complete rest or mundane medical attention. For a less gritty campaign, allow damage from Drain to be healed or alleviated by magical means. |
No main book page reference, unfortunately.
They can't give a main book reference because one doesn't exist.
Well, that would explain why I couldn't find it, wouldn't it?
Still, no magical healing for drain is consistent with the earlier versions (which is probably why I was already treating it as such.)
Still, no magical healing for drain is consistent with the earlier versions (which is probably why I was already treating it as such.)
| QUOTE (Mr. Unpronounceable) | ||
Well the full quote under Tweaking the Rules is:
No main book page reference, unfortunately. |
Wonderful. Implied main rules based on the optional reference. This is bound to cause confusion.
Main book reference or no, the question has been clearly answered.
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