While talking to the 40dice player in our group about my plans to gather 24 dice for dodging, he tells me he can beat that with his current stats. Of course, I'm shocked so I ask him how since he's never done it.

My way (Grade 3 Initiate):
Force 6 Quickened Deflect +
Force 6 Quickened Combat Sense +
Force 6 Quickened Improved Willpower +
Natural stats of 7 Willpower, 6 Int, and 5 Quickness = 24 dice.

His way (Grade 3 Initiate):
Enhanced Sense: Balance Augmentator 0.25 PP
Improved Athletics: 9
Natural Athletics: 6
Natural stats of 6 Willpower, 6 Quickness, and 4 Intelligence = 8 + (15D6 TN 2) which averages 20 dice, but can (if no 1's are rolled) be 23 dice for Dodging....

So, guess I'm doing "The Matrix" version of dodging bullets while standing still as they fly past in slow motion with visible ripples, and he's doing "The Matrix" version of Neo entering that 'Fortress' with a bomb.

Ok, NOW you guys are invited to make your ever lovely comments about Hackmaster +12, Chelsea the cow, and any other munchkin type reaction that you prefer. I've just been getting more and more into a number crunching mood (thanks to so many people telling me what a horrible thing it is to do) and am now going to see what kinda cyber dodging I can conjure up to be comparable to the Shaman and Adept.

Sphynx

Edit: BTW, his way is using the Optional Rules about using Athletics for Dodging in the Cannon Companion on page 97. Rules I forgot even existed.

You have told him that those optional rules take a complex action? So while he is actively dodging, you are actively shooting something and passively dodging. He expends one entire initiative pass dodging (out of however thousand you two get) for those extra dice, while you get to do something painful on each of your actions.

His Initiative: 5+1D6
My Initiative: 5+4D6 (sorry to disappoint there)

And yeah, he knows, like I said, he never DOES that, though I imagine he'd try if he needed to get into melee with someone shooting at him from a distance....

I was just impressed that an Adept could get that many Dodging dice is all.

Sphynx

12 successes is likely with 14 force of expendable spell foci 6 spell pool, 7 spellcasting and 6 karma pool for 3 rerolls.

Good point on the Athletics though, he has 9 because he has some specialization under athletics that's 9 (you can take it above your skill, but can not roll more dice from it than you roll with your skill) so in this example, you're right, he'd lose 3 dice there for a 20 dice maximum. Thanks. I'll GLADLY point that out to him.

Sphynx

If his specialization in Athletics is Acrobatics though, he's fine with the 9.

Well hell yeah, I agree. He found out he was close 'accidently'. I've been planning this for a good hundred karma cause I'm tired of taking Serious injuries from stupid little pistols even when I DO turn on my 10 ballistic defense....

I was just so proud of my crunching that I was surprised to hear an Adept had similar abilities without even trying.

Sphynx

why is the athletics roll for extra dodge dice TN 2?

The adept initiate could also center his athletics for potentially more successes.

right, but the TN should be 4, not 2. unless i'm missing something.

Maybe TN 3 with an Edge: Athletics...

-Siege

Balance Aug power reduces the test by 2 (admittedly, a GM call on that one). However, he's laughing at me now (we're playing as I type...) Apparently he lied. He has only 12 dice to roll for athletics, he was just trying to make me envious. Bastard. So he has 8+12 max with 18 being the average. Anyhows, he sent me a copy of his char sheet so I'll put that on-site soon for the hoardes of people that keep talking about his 'unbalanced' character.

Sphynx

a loving god would never allow the application of balance aug to athletics tests for dodge dice. you, sir, are the devil.

As I recall, balance augment actually works against getting thrown off-balance.

The benefit only applies to tests of Extended Balance -- walking a tight-rope or a narrow ledge, for example.

For someone to suddenly move off-balance (dodge), the M&M required a Willpower 4 test.

Granted, that's the cyberware version. The magical version would at the very least not offer a bonus that works against the fundamental aspect of the cyber.

IMHO.

-Siege

no. the Wil (4) test is for intentionally falling down--ie, going prone as a free action.

Actually, should I want to argue the case (which I don't) the book describes the Athletics test as an flurry of acrobatic moves, and as someone who's studied Aikido (yeah yeah, nobody has to believe me ) where we have to do rolls repeatedly, I know for a fact that knowing which way is up after a 3rd flip in a row would reduce my TN. However, I tend to agree that it's abuse of a cool piece of cyberware and is not intended for that usage.

Sphynx

sure, if you automatically drop prone every time you dodge. my characters don't tend to do that, though.

after some hard thought, i find myself agreeing with sphynx. i am so getting balance aug, next power point.

"Like dropping prone".

It seems reasonable that other physical motions taken while in the act of dodging -- ducking, throwing yourself in a given direction and so on wouldn't be affected by a balance augmentation.

Hell, you'd have a better case for using great leap as a dodge pool augmentation.

-Siege

Just from personal experience, the first thing you do when someone shoots at you is drop prone and roll left or right.

Just thinking about it, there are a lot of things you can do to dodge that you can't do if you aren't as completely certain of getting your balance as you would be with balance augmentation. I'd let it work.

~J

Maybe just make it both worlds.

They need to make the willpower test in order to allow themselves to throw themselves at the ground. BUT, because knowing which way is up would help, maybe give the bonus too.

I like the idea of centering too, urk.

the balance aug would allow you to contort yourself in ways that would--to someone without a balance aug--be off-balance. i'm basically talking about Matrix-style dodging, here.

Not to mention that dropping prone isn't the Athletics test we're discussing. The Athletic test is for the acrobatic flipping and cartwheeling an anime-movie character does.

Sphynx

I wouldn't let it for the "dodge test" but as for the Athletics complexe action to gain additional combat pool for dodging i would. With the (will Tn4) if it a cybered Bal Aug. No test if its an adept power.

Not that any of my players are likely to know thr rules enough to remember this.

I agree w/ Shockwave. I haven't looked at the rule in question recently, but if it works like I think it does...
I would allow the balance aug for the athletics test, the successes of which contribute extra dice to the dodge test. I would not allow it for the subsequent dodge test. If balance aug reduced TN for dodge tests, it would be stated in the description, it's just too HUGE not to. Besides, if it did that, it would be up there with trauma damp, enhanced artwinkulation, and mnemonic enhancer as indespensible 'ware.
Using it for the athletics test for the complex action dodge rules is a really clever idea, though. I think that's really cool, and I intend to use it against my players as soon as possible. I will create the most frustratingly unhittable enemy ever! mwa-ha-ha-ha-ha!