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Serbitar
House rule proposal (or even SM FAQ/ Errata)

Add: Mobile ward

A mobile ward needs a 3 dimensional physical representation, like a room, a car, a plain, or even a space station. As with every ward, the 3d represenatiation must allways be at least 1 meter in diameter in every direction (The smallest wardable object being 1mx1mx1m). It traces exactly the inner contours of this representation (though it is able to cope with holes and openings, like open doors and windows, that are smaller than e.g. 20% of the whole surface) and moves with them. The rules for the anchor still apply and when the anchor is mooved with respect to the 3d representation or the 3d representation changes considerably, the ward breakes down.

Any thoughts?
FrankTrollman

QUOTE
Any thoughts?


Nice.

-Frank
Demonseed Elite
I apologize for not getting to a few questions yet, I really need to go back and read the ward section, since I'm working from memory of what I wrote months ago.

You can technically build a ward via astral projection, except for one thing. It's a bit hard to mark the anchor in physical space while you are astrally projecting. But I suppose if you had the anchor set up in advance, you could build the ward purely from the astral.

You can build wards in the Metaplanes. Which is another reason to stay clear of pulling physics into ward design, since Earth physics do not necessarily apply in the Metaplanes. Note that you can astrally perceive in the Metaplanes, meaning the Astral Plane stretches there.

If the anchor moves a few centimeters into an astral gateway or rift, the ward will collapse. Metaphysically, the anchor has moved far more than a few centimeters.
Synner
QUOTE (Serbitar @ Aug 17 2006, 01:31 PM)
House rule proposal (or even SM FAQ/ Errata)

Add: Mobile ward

A mobile ward needs a 3 dimensional physical representation, like a room, a car, a plain, or even a space station.

We tested an advanced ward option called Threaded Wards (which might eventually see the light of day as a metamagic, who knows?). Threaded wards wove the anchor into the actual physical limits of the ward - meaning you could ward an enclosed space this way the downside being that damaging the physical structure of the anchor (a car, a room, a crate, etc) would damage the ward too.
Lebo77
QUOTE (Demonseed Elite)
If the anchor moves a few centimeters into an astral gateway or rift, the ward will collapse. Metaphysically, the anchor has moved far more than a few centimeters.

OK.

This prompts a related question I had been thinking about:

Is there "stuff" in the astral plane, and is it solid?


If I Drive a 1985 Honda Nighthawk650 motorcycle through an astral gateway... What happens to it? It is clearly not in the real world anymore, it's in astral space. But it's not alive... Does it blink out of existance? I don't think so. If I put down the kickstand and walk away will it be ther when I get back? Can I ride it around untill I run out of gas? What if I bring a gun through? Can I shoot spirits with it? If I brink it BACK through the rift, are there any adverse effects?
Synner
QUOTE (Lebo77)
Is there "stuff" in the astral plane, and is it solid?

Just to note that the metaplanes are not the astral plane. They are other planes of existence.
Demonseed Elite
I'll have to read the Astral Gateway rules again before I can try to answer that. I know in the case of an astral rift, you don't actually "go" into the rift. The rift just allows mundanes to astrally project. For instance, the people that entered the Watergate Rift caused by Dunkelzahn's assassination still have physical bodies on Earth, comatose and sitting in the Riverside Mental Hospital.

So for an Astral Rift, at least, you can't drive a motorcycle into it. You technically can't even move a ward anchor through it.
Lebo77
QUOTE (Demonseed Elite)
I'll have to read the Astral Gateway rules again before I can try to answer that. I know in the case of an astral rift, you don't actually "go" into the rift. The rift just allows mundanes to astrally project. For instance, the people that entered the Watergate Rift caused by Dunkelzahn's assassination still have physical bodies on Earth, comatose and sitting in the Riverside Mental Hospital.

So for an Astral Rift, at least, you can't drive a motorcycle into it. You technically can't even move a ward anchor through it.

Ah. I just reread astral Grateway. No Astral motorcycles. Oh well. It was a fun idea while it lasted. So it looks like there is no way to enter the astral and bring your body along. I thought there used to be in previous editions? I could be wrong.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Lebo77)
QUOTE (Demonseed Elite @ Aug 17 2006, 10:31 AM)
I'll have to read the Astral Gateway rules again before I can try to answer that. I know in the case of an astral rift, you don't actually "go" into the rift. The rift just allows mundanes to astrally project. For instance, the people that entered the Watergate Rift caused by Dunkelzahn's assassination still have physical bodies on Earth, comatose and sitting in the Riverside Mental Hospital.

So for an Astral Rift, at least, you can't drive a motorcycle into it. You technically can't even move a ward anchor through it.

Ah. I just reread astral Grateway. No Astral motorcycles. Oh well. It was a fun idea while it lasted. So it looks like there is no way to enter the astral and bring your body along. I thought there used to be in previous editions? I could be wrong.

Actually, Target: Awakened Lands had rules for "astral constructs", which were in essence physical objects that existed on the astral plane. Alchera, a type of Astral Construct landscape, seem to be around SR4 so it would make sense that others are, as well.

Howeer, there were never any rules for creating astral constructs. You might be able to stumble across an astral gun, an astral motorcycle, or even as astral skyscraper (the Sears Tower, for example) but you'd never be able to create one of your own unless you got some GM handwave metamagic from an IE.

The closest SR canon has come to actually shifting physical matter to the astral plane is Harlequin's and Ehran's apparent teleportation in Harlequin, which some interperate to be a use of the Earthdawn power called Netherwalk. Nothing about that ability was ever clairied except for the explicit statement that the IEs can do whatever they want without any regard for the rules.
Slithery D
Netherwalk was actually limited time astral projection, closest to the adept power in SOTA 64. (ED adepts were basically mystic adepts, with no projection, but then ED astral space was mostly one big mana warp where you really didn't want to be...) The power that let you physically enter astral space was a maximum rank Lightbearer power, which I won't bother to explain. Let's just say - rare.

There was a spell that let you open an astral portal to a prepared location and travel there physically, but not any free point to point travel.
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (Synner)
Initiates are by no means rare. Any magician plying his trade for more than a year will inevitably initiate.

Holy swordfish mustardballs! ALL magicians who aren't TOTALLY green are initiates!? Okay, I need some time to get my head around that. I was thinking initiation was kinda special, something for the big boys. Rather, anyone not initiated is a total n00b!
Wow. Is that in Street Magic somewhere?
Ravor
As a disclaimer, I haven't done much more then skim Street Magic, so it might already be there, but if its the case that Initiates are that common, are we going to be given an offical BP Cost for being one at Char Gen? *winks*
Moon-Hawk
Well it would have to be, unless our only option is to play magicians who've been doing anything for less than a year.
Synner
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk @ Aug 17 2006, 05:46 PM)
QUOTE (Synner @ Aug 17 2006, 07:24 AM)
Initiates are by no means rare. Any magician plying his trade for more than a year will inevitably initiate.

Holy swordfish mustardballs! ALL magicians who aren't TOTALLY green are initiates!? Okay, I need some time to get my head around that. I was thinking initiation was kinda special, something for the big boys. Rather, anyone not initiated is a total n00b!

This isn't explicitly stated anywhere in Street Magic, but it is implied. Magicians form magical groups (study circles) in college. Corporations provide their wage mages with initiatory groups to hone their abilities in service of the corp. Shamanic societies gather to benefit their members. Even lone magicians stand to gain more from investing in Initiation than in any other aspect of their ability (at least initially). Given the chance, why wouldn't magicians initiate as soon as possible? Why would initiates be rare?

Let's put it this way another way. Let's say you've just created a new shadowrunner mage (Sorcery skill group 4, Conjuring skill group 4, Arcana 3, Magic 5), the character is in his mid- to late twenties, and he's been running the shadows for a while (but not too long). He earns 15 karma over his first 2-3 adventures. What's the first thing he's likely to spend that on? My bet is Initiation (it increases his Magic cap, gives him access to the metaplanes and gives him one of those cool metamagics), and even if it isn't the first thing its likely the second.

Why would an experienced wage mage (who doesn't have to worry about running skills), a security mage, or an arcane scholar be any different? Anyone who's practicing magic professionally has something to gain by initiating - and most have less secondary aspects of personal development to invest in than the typical shadowrunner. Inevitably most should initiate. Maybe a year or so on the job might be short for someone in a less demanding field of work (and one subject to less attrition) but a magician must really be off his focus if he doesn't invest in the single most significant way of enhancing his Talent when he can.

Note that initiates being more widespread does not mean to say that high-grade initiates are common. Diminishing returns apply here like everywhere else.
Samaels Ghost
People without common traditions or are self-taught would likely not have initiated I don't think. Then again, learning to get to the metaplanes and ask spirits for guidance might be a good idea for those who can't afford college or tutors.
Serbitar
QUOTE (Synner @ Aug 17 2006, 05:01 PM)



Why would an experienced wage mage (who doesn't have to worry about running skills), a security mage, or an arcane scholar be any different?

Because of the same reason why not all NPCs increase their main profession skill to 5/6 (ultra professionel/World Class) though it only costs so much karma:

Because its just the way the distribution goes. As I said in another thread, it is not liable to use karma arguments in discribing the SR world. Karma is a gaming construct only to make advancement possible and should not be used in any reasoning concerning SR society.

If you want to justify a lot of initiates , then the only reason can be "because a lot of people initiate". Do not use karma arguments.
SCARed
QUOTE (Serbitar)
QUOTE (Slithery D @ Aug 16 2006, 12:37 PM)

A bigger problem is that I can't for the life of me find the SR4 rules that attacking or pressing through a ward (successful or not) alerts the wards creator.

It in there. In Wards with a Twist, or so.

acually, the last sentence of the mana barriers chapter (p.185) says so.

i just wonder, if pressing throug a barrier counts as "breaking" through it? because IMHO that are two different things.

any (official) ideas about that?
Synner
QUOTE (Serbitar @ Aug 18 2006, 07:31 AM)
QUOTE (Synner @ Aug 17 2006, 05:01 PM)
Why would an experienced wage mage (who doesn't have to worry about running skills), a security mage, or an arcane scholar be any different?

Because of the same reason why not all NPCs increase their main profession skill to 5/6 (ultra professionel/World Class) though it only costs so much karma:

Because its just the way the distribution goes. As I said in another thread, it is not liable to use karma arguments in discribing the SR world. Karma is a gaming construct only to make advancement possible and should not be used in any reasoning concerning SR society.

If you want to justify a lot of initiates , then the only reason can be "because a lot of people initiate". Do not use karma arguments.

I did not mention karma with regards to NPCs, I used karma for an example of natural PC progression in the gameworld to indicate how high a priority initiation represents to a magical character and how fast that it can happen.

I'm simply saying that there's no reason why a professional magician NPC wouldn't invest in the development of the single most important aspect of developing their talent after a while plying his trade. ie. There's no reason why the same type of progression doesn't shouldn't apply to NPCs.

So the correct answer is "a lot of people initiate" because initiation is a measure of professional and personal advancement in their field (and one recognized by peers), because it expands your basic Talent, and ultimately because it's just so darn useful in any context.

Would you expect anything else from a thaumaturgic scholar working on developing new magical techniques? Or a wage mage with access to a corp's magical group? Or a security mage assigned to protect his unit from magical intruders? All of them stand to gain a lot more from initiation than investment (in terms of personal development rather than "karma") in any other single area. I even made allowances for very different time frame for development between a PC runner and an NPC magician, given that a PC will probably quickly initiate after a few runs.

Note that I also specifically distinguished initiation from high-grade initiation.
RunnerPaul
Since I haven't seen much discussion on these since I posted them, I'm going to give these few follow questions I had a post of their own:

When performing Ritual Sorcery, if the Background Count increases in the middle of the ritual, what impacts does it it have? (Also if Great Ritual metamagic is being used at the time)


Possessed vessels have a metaphysical blind spot with regards to AR visual overlay (even if that overlay is provided by physical means and not via simsense) since the AR images don't have corresponding auras. Does this blind spot apply if the posessed vessel looks through a pair of low-light or thermographic goggles, or would they be able to actually see those images?


Synner, in my questions about Formula Pacts, you said that the spirit formula "need not be obvious or evident." Could you explain that a little more for me? I'm having some trouble understanding what you mean by that, since going by the book, when a character enters a Formula Pact "the character’s aura is visibly tainted by the spirit’s signature." The only think I can figure is that you're implying that Free Spirits only enter in to Formula Pacts with characters who can perform Masking; is this what you were getting at?


When a character has summoned a Free Spirit, and is performing the lengthy binding ritual, could a second character who also has control of that Free Spirit's formula interrupt the binding ritual by performing a summoning of their own?


For Wards where the Physical Anchor is just an object contained within the warded area, is the "one meter in every direction" minimum size requirement measured from that object's center of mass?

Slithery D
QUOTE (SCARed)
QUOTE (Serbitar)
QUOTE (Slithery D @ Aug 16 2006, 12:37 PM)

A bigger problem is that I can't for the life of me find the SR4 rules that attacking or pressing through a ward (successful or not) alerts the wards creator.

It in there. In Wards with a Twist, or so.

acually, the last sentence of the mana barriers chapter (p.185) says so.

i just wonder, if pressing throug a barrier counts as "breaking" through it? because IMHO that are two different things.

Well, it says an attack or an attempt to break through gives warning. We know what an attack is; a "break through" attempt must be pressing through. For wards not to be pretty much useless they either have to give warning or only allow one press through attempt. Otherwise they best even a fairly strong ward can do is slow you down for a few combat turns.
Slithery D
QUOTE (RunnerPaul)
Synner, in my questions about Formula Pacts, you said that the spirit formula "need not be obvious or evident." Could you explain that a little more for me? I'm having some trouble understanding what you mean by that, since going by the book, when a character enters a Formula Pact "the character’s aura is visibly tainted by the spirit’s signature." The only think I can figure is that you're implying that Free Spirits only enter in to Formula Pacts with characters who can perform Masking; is this what you were getting at?

Bioware visibily taints a characters aura. How easy is it to assense?
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (Slithery D)
Bioware visibily taints a characters aura. How easy is it to assense?

4 hits. Point taken, and good analogy.
Demonseed Elite
QUOTE
For Wards where the Physical Anchor is just an object contained within the warded area, is the "one meter in every direction" minimum size requirement measured from that object's center of mass?


Yeah, that should work. In the case of large objects, you're going to want to cover more than 1 meter radius from the center of mass, but in that case you won't be running into the problem of attempting to create ultra-thin or tiny wards.

QUOTE
Well, it says an attack or an attempt to break through gives warning. We know what an attack is; a "break through" attempt must be pressing through. For wards not to be pretty much useless they either have to give warning or only allow one press through attempt. Otherwise they best even a fairly strong ward can do is slow you down for a few combat turns.


Pressing through does count as an attempt to break through. Fooling a ward would not, though, since the whole idea is that you are spoofing an authorized aura.

On Mobile Wards:

I've finally gotten a chance to look over a print copy (well, a PDF copy) of this section. I think I definitely wasn't clear enough here, to the point where I was even confusing myself. This is something I'll want to take back to FanPro if there's any sort of official errata, but here's my non-official take for the time being.

Wards can be mobile, but not portable. Confused yet? smile.gif In other words, it's all right if the entire warded space moves, but you can't shift an anchor in an attempt to re-locate a ward.

For example, you can ward a cabin on a space station hurtling around the Earth. You can ward the cabin on a plane. You can ward a crate travelling on a ship. While all those spaces are moving, there's a fixed and constant definition of the warded space.

What you couldn't do is, for example, ward the object in the crate, then open up the crate, take the physical anchor out of the crate and stuff it in your pocket, and attempt to bring the ward with you. You've broken the fixed concept of the warded space. Similarly, while you can ward an airplane using a physical anchor inside it, you can't just ward a bracelet and have a ward bubble following around the person wearing it.
Eyeless Blond
QUOTE (Demonseed Elite @ Aug 18 2006, 11:33 PM)
On Mobile Wards:

I've finally gotten a chance to look over a print copy (well, a PDF copy) of this section. I think I definitely wasn't clear enough here, to the point where I was even confusing myself. This is something I'll want to take back to FanPro if there's any sort of official errata, but here's my non-official take for the time being.

Wards can be mobile, but not portable. Confused yet?  smile.gif  In other words, it's all right if the entire warded space moves, but you can't shift an anchor in an attempt to re-locate a ward.

For example, you can ward a cabin on a space station hurtling around the Earth. You can ward the cabin on a plane. You can ward a crate travelling on a ship. While all those spaces are moving, there's a fixed and constant definition of the warded space.

What you couldn't do is, for example, ward the object in the crate, then open up the crate, take the physical anchor out of the crate and stuff it in your pocket, and attempt to bring the ward with you. You've broken the fixed concept of the warded space. Similarly, while you can ward an airplane using a physical anchor inside it, you can't just ward a bracelet and have a ward bubble following around the person wearing it.

Ah-HA! So you CAN ward a car then! I think this is a great idea, as it adds cheap, persistent protection against magic that otherwise doesn't affect mundanes. It really makes it easier to balance mages, especially now that astrally projecting bodies can read and see normally, among other things. It's my opinion that wards should be getting more and more common as well, as it's the one magical activity that doesn't require any skill whatsoever to use. I envision one of the triumphs of early magicla theory was a recipe for ward-making that any idiot could do with no trainning, rather like a simple recipe.

Now, can you ward a suit of armor? biggrin.gif (I'm voting yes, but that it won't do any good. Remember auras "extend" to include clothing and such objects, so the wearer's aura would extend outside the ward, rendering it ineffective. Still, some mages might take the time to ward their clothing as a fashion statement, or something.)
Slithery D
QUOTE (Eyeless Blond)
Now, can you ward a suit of armor? biggrin.gif (I'm voting yes, but that it won't do any good. Remember auras "extend" to include clothing and such objects, so the wearer's aura would extend outside the ward, rendering it ineffective. Still, some mages might take the time to ward their clothing as a fashion statement, or something.)

You don't even need that handwave. 1 meter rule! Well, maybe a troll would be that thick in the chest...
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (Demonseed Elite)
On Mobile Wards:

I've finally gotten a chance to look over a print copy (well, a PDF copy) of this section. I think I definitely wasn't clear enough here, to the point where I was even confusing myself. This is something I'll want to take back to FanPro if there's any sort of official errata, but here's my non-official take for the time being.

Wards can be mobile, but not portable. Confused yet? smile.gif In other words, it's all right if the entire warded space moves, but you can't shift an anchor in an attempt to re-locate a ward.

I really hope you can sell FanPro on this. The setting needs this concept.

Of course, there's still the issue of what would happen if one of these mobile-but-not-portable warded spaces overlapped with a Fixed-Location warded space. I'm still partial to the idea of Fixed-Location Wards always trumping Mobile wards, but I'm open to other ideas.
Demonseed Elite
QUOTE (RunnerPaul)
Of course, there's still the issue of what would happen if one of these mobile-but-not-portable warded spaces overlapped with a Fixed-Location warded space. I'm still partial to the idea of Fixed-Location Wards always trumping Mobile wards, but I'm open to other ideas.

That's how I would rule it too. The rules say that in the case of overlapping wards, the new ward fails (p. 124, SM). So if a mobile ward is introduced into a space where there is already a ward, it is the newer ward in that space. In the case where two mobile wards moved into each other's space, astral combat would determine which ward remains standing. The warded objects won't bounce off each other or anything, one or the other ward will just break.
Demonseed Elite
I'm working up a post on my SR4 work blog about this ward confusion that will hopefully help people clear it up until something official can come out. I hope to have that post done tonight.
Demonseed Elite
Posted.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Demonseed Elite)
The rules say that in the case of overlapping wards, the new ward fails (p. 124, SM). So if a mobile ward is introduced into a space where there is already a ward, it is the newer ward in that space. In the case where two mobile wards moved into each other's space, astral combat would determine which ward remains standing. The warded objects won't bounce off each other or anything, one or the other ward will just break.

IIRC, that's what the rules for pressing through barriers are for.

Thanks for the clarifications, BTW - I hope they make it into an errata, as the current wording is very restrictive.
Demonseed Elite
QUOTE
IIRC, that's what the rules for pressing through barriers are for.


Yep, exactly.

QUOTE
Thanks for the clarifications, BTW - I hope they make it into an errata, as the current wording is very restrictive.


It's mostly just minor word changes, but it does make a big difference, yes. I sent a couple of them in and we'll see what happens.
Serbitar
QUOTE (Synner @ Aug 18 2006, 03:10 AM)

I'm simply saying that there's no reason why a professional magician NPC wouldn't invest in the development of the single most important aspect of developing their talent after a while plying his trade. ie. There's no reason why the same type of progression doesn't shouldn't apply to NPCs.

There is one. The same reasons that hinders all NPCs from having rating 5/6 in their main skills. It is the single most important aspect in their working life. Yet, we do not see everybody running arround with 5/6 skills, although it does not count that much Karma to do so (actually it is cheaper to go from 4-5 or 5-6 than to initate).

So I say again: Do not apply PC, karma based, progression, to NPCs. Karma is a constructfor RP. Do not use it to explain NPC skill/magic/initiate-grades/whatever distributions. Just define them and say: Look, thats the way it is, thats the power baseline set by society.

Note that I am not disagreeing with your initiation-grade distribution, only with your justification.
Rotbart van Dainig
BTW, why was the layering of wards prohibited?
Serbitar
Balancing? I think that is a good idea. As wards do not have a "thickness" you could just put 10 wards like an onion arround each other . ..
Jaid
QUOTE (Serbitar)
QUOTE (Synner @ Aug 18 2006, 03:10 AM)

I'm simply saying that there's no reason why a professional magician NPC wouldn't invest in the development of the single most important aspect of developing their talent after a while plying his trade. ie. There's no reason why the same type of progression doesn't shouldn't apply to NPCs.

There is one. The same reasons that hinders all NPCs from having rating 5/6 in their main skills. It is the single most important aspect in their working life. Yet, we do not see everybody running arround with 5/6 skills, although it does not count that much Karma to do so (actually it is cheaper to go from 4-5 or 5-6 than to initate).

i disagree. the most important thing in most workplaces is knowing/befriending the right people, IMO. now, strictly speaking, it *should* be based on skill, but the simple fact is that it is often not (indeed, i would say more often than not, it is based on politics).

generally speaking, you can get a whole lot farther on who you know than you can with what you know, if what you're looking for is promotions and the like.

not to say that skill won't ever get you anywhere... just that in today's society (and i suspect over much of history) the best way to get a promotion is generally to become the boss's friend.
Serbitar
This argument also works against initiation.
Jaid
well, i suppose that depends on how you look at it. initiation gives you a tangible social benefit in some cases. whether that benefit is simply "i can beat the crap out of you" or if it's just a matter of the fact that, in magical groups, initiation is a very public, recognised event, and is more likely to gain you social recognition within the group.

it's kinda almost like a diploma that way... having a high school diploma does not make you smarter than anyone else, and may not even mean you know more than anyone else, but because you have that piece of paper, it gives you a social benefit. the same applies to some extent to further post-secondary education, though of course it varies depending on the profession. but let's face it, you don't really need a university degree to become a lawyer, for example. much of what you learn in university may have nothing whatever to do with being a lawyer. but just go ahead and try to get into law school without one =P

of course, for those who don't get into magical groups or for whom initiation does not give a tangible social benefit, you are absolutely right. they would be less likely to initiate. which i'm sure is why corporations sponsor magical groups, or at least partly... it encourages greater power in their pet magicians.
Arab_One
QUOTE (Demonseed Elite)
QUOTE (RunnerPaul @ Aug 19 2006, 08:15 AM)
Of course, there's still the issue of what would happen if one of these mobile-but-not-portable warded spaces overlapped with a Fixed-Location warded space. I'm still partial to the idea of Fixed-Location Wards always trumping Mobile wards, but I'm open to other ideas.

That's how I would rule it too. The rules say that in the case of overlapping wards, the new ward fails (p. 124, SM). So if a mobile ward is introduced into a space where there is already a ward, it is the newer ward in that space. In the case where two mobile wards moved into each other's space, astral combat would determine which ward remains standing. The warded objects won't bounce off each other or anything, one or the other ward will just break.

Say a mage wants to get a spirit into the very well warded car of an exec. By this ruling what is to stop him from putting a force one ward on a lamp-post extending out over the road that the exec will drive on?
Eyeless Blond
Nothing, but what would stop the exec from avoiding the ward? It's not like wards are particularly hard to avoid; you just have to drive around it. Wards take awhile to set up, so they won't just pop up in front of you.

Unless you set up a trap ward (hint, hint). But that takes planning in itself, and it's a little ambiguous if "springing" a trap ward makes that one count as the "mobile" ward instead.
kzt
QUOTE (Eyeless Blond)
Nothing, but what would stop the exec from avoiding the ward? It's not like wards are particularly hard to avoid; you just have to drive around it. d instead.

Ignoring the rather significant issue that less than 1% of the population is magically active, and far less have astral perception, and very few drive around with it running, nothing would stop him from seeing this. wobble.gif

This rather like the solution to the problem of a sniper laying camouflaged 600 yards away waiting for you to walk out your front door one morning: Just see and shoot him first.
Slithery D
I have this nagging feeling that wards are really supposed to only extend to the limits of a physical place with actual walls. After all: "Wards are a temporary form of dual-natured mana barrier..." (SR4. pg. 185). A free standing ward that has an anchor on the ground of an open outdoors spot and is not attached to any walls isn't really "dual-natured" except for on the ground side... I don't really think they're supposed to work that way, but I don't think it would be horrible if they did. So then you wouldn't be able to do the lamppost trick.
Mr. Unpronounceable
Only exception I've ever seen used for wards needing an actual, physical barrier, is allowing open windows and doors to not leave holes in it.
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (Slithery D)
I have this nagging feeling that wards are really supposed to only extend to the limits of a physical place with actual walls. After all: "Wards are a temporary form of dual-natured mana barrier..." (SR4. pg. 185). A free standing ward that has an anchor on the ground of an open outdoors spot and is not attached to any walls isn't really "dual-natured" except for on the ground side... I don't really think they're supposed to work that way, but I don't think it would be horrible if they did.

There is not any requirement for a 1-to-1 geometric equivalence between the astral form of something, and the shape that it takes in meatspace.

Take the classic example of a mage who's a srcrawny 90lb. weakling in meatspace, but is so magically powerful that his idealized mental image of himself causes him to have the physique of the Incredible Hulk on his astral form. In this case, when that mage becomes dual-natured during astral perception, his astral form would extend beyond the space defined by his physical body.

Wards that are anchored to objects that are located within the warded space work much the same way. Sure, the meatspace portion of the dual-natured ward may just be a lamp post. However, the barriers that make up the astral form portion of the dual natured ward extend to the boundries set by the ward's creator.
Fortune
*Thread Resurrection complete*

QUOTE (Synner)
I'm simply saying that there's no reason why a professional magician NPC wouldn't invest in the development of the single most important aspect of developing their talent after a while plying his trade. ie. There's no reason why the same type of progression doesn't shouldn't apply to NPCs.

So the correct answer is "a lot of people initiate" because initiation is a measure of professional and personal advancement in their field (and one recognized by peers), because it expands your basic Talent, and ultimately because it's just so darn useful in any context.

Would you expect anything else from a thaumaturgic scholar working on developing new magical techniques? Or a wage mage with access to a corp's magical group? Or a security mage assigned to protect his unit from magical intruders? All of them stand to gain a lot more from initiation than investment (in terms of personal development rather than "karma") in any other single area. I even made allowances for very different time frame for development between a PC runner and an NPC magician, given that a PC will probably quickly initiate after a few runs.


That line of reasoning cuts out a lot of chargen concepts for PCs, as they don't have the option of being Initiates to any degree. What about the ex-Wage Mage forced to run against his former employers? Or the rich, wiz-kid College Student choosing to run the shadows for a lark? Or, or, etc, etc ...! Why are all PCs now considered outcasts from magical society, or total neophites without a year of magical experience to their name?
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (Fortune)
*Thread Resurrection complete*
And they said you couldn't use spells to raise the dead in Shadowrun.


QUOTE
That line of reasoning cuts out a lot of chargen concepts for PCs, as they don't have the option of being Initiates to any degree. What about the ex-Wage Mage forced to run against his former employers? Or the rich, wiz-kid College Student choosing to run the shadows for a lark? Or, or, etc, etc ...! Why are all PCs now considered outcasts from magical society, or total neophites without a year of magical experience to their name?
Very good point. Perhaps at some point (Probably in 4th Edition's version of the SR Companion) they'll give the option to take initiation grades at chargen.
SCARed
QUOTE (RunnerPaul)
Very good point. Perhaps at some point (Probably in 4th Edition's version of the SR Companion) they'll give the option to take initiation grades at chargen.

and if they do, what will it mean: it will sure as **** cost BPs. compaired to raising the magical attribute for 1 point it should cost evnen more than 10BP (IMHO). so if you do choose to create an initiated mage on chargen it will cost you BPs. and there are already an number of BP-sinks at chargen (not only for mages). so your mage wil bee a initate. maybe grade one or two. but it will weaken him/her in general.

the point is good mentioned, but i have no clue how to solve the problem in a logical way that is also reasonable in the SR-world (inplay).
Fortune
QUOTE (SCARed @ Oct 19 2006, 05:32 PM)
the point is good mentioned, but i have no clue how to solve the problem in a logical way that is also reasonable in the SR-world (inplay).

By Synner retracting the blanket statement that Initiation is the rule, rather than the exception, for any Magician in the Sixth World with a year's experience.
Synner
There will be no retraction since there is no inconsistence with canon (not that anything I say on these boards is binding or official until it sees print). Whatever your magical orientation, Initiation is one of advantageous aspects of magical ability to invest in, in terms of your personal and career advancement, especially if you aren't a shadowrunner (and don't have to worry about developing all those secondary abilities that'll keep you alive).

I will admit that the "one year" comment was made off-hand, but feel free to amend that to "a couple of years" or even "three or four years". Depending on character age, professional priorities and level of experience there should be a curve anyway. A "rich wiz-kid College Student" will probably still picking up basic Conjuring and Sorcery and learning spells rather than going for Initiation, while an "ex-Wage Mage" will be significantly different (character and BP-wise) if he was a security mage who broke with the mother corp a couple of years into his contract or a labrat who dropped out after 10 years spent in Magical R&D.

The current character generation rules (in the BBB) are intended to allow you to create a shadowrunner just starting to make a rep for himself (regardless of whether he's a hysperspecialist or a jack-of-all-trades)—strictly speaking they're not designed to make a hardcore veteran Sioux Wildcat/Ghost any more than a magician who's turned to the shadows after a distinguished career as a wagemage or an academic thaumaturge. If that's what you want and your GM allows tweaks need to be made.

It is highly probable that future books will introduce game options for more advanced/experienced characters, prime runners, and possibly initiates. If Initiation is made available at chargen, it is highly likely to be proportionately costly, and that too is appropriate since that allocation of BP reflects the character's prior focus on career and skill development (before going into the shadows), rather than skills that'll keep him alive in the shadows.
PlatonicPimp
My two cents on Wards:

It's a matter of relative speed, not of distance. The ward is mobile, perhaps, but if you move it too quickly it collapses. So you could ward a car, and keep it warded, but only if you drove it real slow. Like 10' per hour slow.

Just an Idea.
FrankTrollman
The problem is that your relative speed is already being measured in the thousands of kilometers an hour. You're travelling through space (and astral space) at the rate of πAU every year around the sun and around the galactic core at about 23 million kilometers a year, while spinning around a point 6378 km away every day. You're moving really fast, relative to othr things far away and even relative to things near you.

If there was any kind of requirement to move things slowly, wards wouldn't work at all. Nohing moves slowly anywhere in the universe.

-Frank
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