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Mistwalker
When someone is mind probed, they know they are being probed, but may not know who is doing it.

What if they are asleep? Does it wake them?
Or is lost in the REM/dream cycle?
What if you also cast (or have someone else cast) dream on them, would that make a difference?
Slithery D
I'd have them wake up. The real question is what happens when you mindprobe someone who is unconscious and can't simply wake up. Maybe the (game balancing) answer is that you can only mindprobe a conscious and aware person, so you would actually need to slap the sleeper before you begin, and wait for some stun damage to heal on the knock out victim.

If you don't want the victim to know he was mindprobed you've got Alter Memory. No freebies.
Garrowolf
I would actually say differently but it wouldn't be very useful. Basically if you mind probed a sleeping person you would have access to thier chaotic unconscious mind and you have no knowedge of how they access their thoughts and feelings. It MIGHT be useful to a therapist but it wouldn't get you into the area of their mind that deals with rational organized thought. Basically you could see their dreams but not get anything useful.

If you tried to access their conscious mind then you would still deal with the willpower test. I rule that if they get no successes or a glitch on the willpower test then they don't know but if they get any successes but still loose then they feel the pressure or invasion or what it feels like.

I also rule that if you glitch or critical glitch inside of another mind then you can get lost in there or other strangeness.
Demerzel
Hummn, makes me think of a short story called He Who Shapes by LeGuin.

Probe someone sleeping and maybe you get their dreams, maybe you even get their nightmares, or worse you inherrit their Neuroses.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (Demerzel)
Hummn, makes me think of a short story called He Who Shapes by LeGuin.

Probe someone sleeping and maybe you get their dreams, maybe you even get their nightmares, or worse you inherrit their Neuroses.

...I would go with this. However I am still thinking of just eliminating the spell altogether, for both PCs and NPCs. Makes actually needing to do legwork just a little more important.
Mistwalker
Well, considering that you can go thru their thoughts, regardless of what they are thinking, with 3-4 successes, I don't see a problem allowing them to probe a sleeping person. Now, if they only get 1-2 successes, then yes, they only get the dream sequence.

I can see VIPs and such having someone they trust do a low level mind probe on them several times, each morning. Each attempt removes 2 dice from the next test, cumulative.

Hmm, what if you narco'ed the sleeper, or stun bolted him, so that he couldn't wake up?

Or use Alter Memory spell, to make him think it was a weird dream/nightmare?


So far, my players have only used it to confirm information from the bad guys, after they had done the leg works and caught some of the badies.
They know that there is a lot of machiavelian stuff out there, so even if Joe Blow, low level enforcer thinks he knows what is going on, there is a good chance that he is wrong, that he has been fed mis-information. This isn't even done to defeat mind-probes, that is just a nice side effect.
eidolon
I don't know for certain that the rules have the same "levels of success" in SR4, but for when I'm running SR3 Mind Probe, if the target is unconscious, you can't get conscious thoughts, because the target doesn't have any. So it makes the test harder off the bat, because they have to achieve enough successes to get into the target's subconscious.
Mistwalker
In SR4, with 1-2 successes, you get the target's surface thoughts
with 3-4 successes, you can find out anything the target conciously knows
with 5+ successes, you can find out everything, including not conciously known stuff.

As with a lot, I don't believe Mind Probe is a game breaker, unless it is abused.
Slithery D
Tautologies 'R Us! Nothing in SR is a game breaker if it isn't abused.
Kyoto Kid
...unfortunately the spellcasting PCs "overused" (in my book to the point of abused) MP to the point that there was no reason to do much if any legwork.

I had to start warding just about every location (if not just to get them to turn their foci off & confound watcher/sprit searches), give even grunt NPCs higher than average Willpower, and have magical countermeasures (like spirits, elementals, & opposing mages) everywhere just to keep them in check. In the end it became more like Spell Wars than Shadowrun.

Mind Probe is not the only spell either on my possible deletion list either, Control Thoughts and Control Actions are also under review.


Fortune
QUOTE (Mistwalker @ Oct 31 2006, 03:52 AM)
I can see VIPs and such having someone they trust do a low level mind probe on them several times, each morning. Each attempt removes 2 dice from the next test, cumulative.

I don't think the restriction can be used as some kind of Anti Mind Magic Prevention Technique. I'm pretty sure that the -2 for subsequent attempts refers to that specific caster only, and not a blanket -2 to the Dice Pool of everyone else in the world.
Mistwalker
I was reading it to be any mind probe attempt.

The mana flux in and around your mind is like a storm, until it settles, reading your mind will be extremely difficult.

That sorta thing. It would help keep the abuse of mind probe down.


Kyoto Kid, try have a criminal master mind set up the players, knowing that they will mind probe his henchmen, set up cut outs, and make sure they get all the info that the master mind wants them to. So, they end up doing what he wants, much to their detriment.
Jack Kain
Well rememeber they actually have to know the truth. A clever man covering his tracks would of course lie and stuff. You mind probe someone he's meet and get info about the target heading to the docks. While you head to the docks he goes to the airport.

You've lost because you assumed anything you gain through mind probe is true.


Perhaps the roll should be made secretly by the GM, incase of a glitch they gain false infomation. (in the case of mind probe the player can't know they glitched otherwise they'd know the info wasn't good)
WhiskeyMac
NPCs and PCs alike know they are being mindprobed. Just have the NPCs be very pissed off all of a sudden and all their surface thoughts will be death and killing. And if they are constantly getting a large amount of successes then just up the Threshold. Isn't MP touch range to engage? Or is it LOS?

I would allow MP on an unconscious or sleeping person, but in order for them to get any info they would need to get 3+ successes, simply because unconscious and sleeping people have only emotions or dreams.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (Mistwalker)
Kyoto Kid, try have a criminal master mind set up the players, knowing that they will mind probe his henchmen, set up cut outs, and make sure they get all the info that the master mind wants them to. So, they end up doing what he wants, much to their detriment.

QUOTE (Jack Kain)
Perhaps the roll should be made secretly by the GM, incase of a glitch they gain false infomation. (in the case of mind probe the player can't know they glitched otherwise they'd know the info wasn't good)

QUOTE (WhiskeyMac)
NPCs and PCs alike know they are being mindprobed. Just have the NPCs be very pissed off all of a sudden and all their surface thoughts will be death and killing. And if they are constantly getting a large amount of successes then just up the Threshold. Isn't MP touch range to engage? Or is it LOS?

I would allow MP on an unconscious or sleeping person, but in order for them to get any info they would need to get 3+ successes, simply because unconscious and sleeping people have only emotions or dreams.

...I think Mindprobe may be LOS if I am not correct (which makes it even worse).

Good suggestions (especially the idea of planting disinformation). I'll consider these.

As to Control Thoughts & Control Actions, the jury is still in deliberation.

Garrowolf
I like the idea of the GM rolling for the spell results on any detection spell.

I can also see some sort of mental resistance skill being taught to certain groups. It would be like the guy in Babylon 5 trying to resist a mind probe. It would be difficult to do but it could raise the threshold. Maybe the skill only works versus mind probe and alter memory and such. The down side is that you can't do anything else when you are doing it. Basically you are repeating rhymes, doing math, etc. Of course this would depend on assuming that someone would be able to notice your efforts.

One thing I was thinking was what if you used Intuition to make a notice check for the attempt OR your intuition was the threshold to not notice.
Mistwalker
I will follow RAW, in that if you are awake, you know if you are being mind probed.

Kyoto Kid,
Remember that you can also use Mind Probe on your players too.

I like the idea of having a new girlfriend do mind probe when they are asleep, with an alter memory if need be. Watch the players try and figure out why they always seem to be snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

Or, just have the mage out of sight, using mage goggles, and cast mind probe on them when they are on the street, preferably in a circumstance where they can't just draw guns and start shooting everyone that moves.

As well, if the group picks up a reputation for mind probing, they may have problems with their contacts, drop in loyalty, or just refusing to meet. Anyone new who meets them, once they realize that these are the "Probers", will disappear as soon as possible.

As Jack was suggesting, you make the rolls for them, or just use careful wording. If they only get 1-2 successes, allow the "password" to slip out, but it is the duress password, that sends a silent alarm to bring in the HTR response team, heavy in magic too.
eidolon
One thing I have always done when ruling mind probe is that although the target knows something is going on, only someone that knows what Mind Probe is will automatically know that that is what is going on.

My reasoning being not every joe schmoe on the street is going to know what Mind Probe the spell is, what it feels like, etc. A high profile target will have been instructed as to what it's like, or even had it demonstrated by a wage mage so he/she knows what to be on guard for. Mages will most likely know what it is and what it feels like, even if they don't know the spell, especially on a successful knowledge check (magic, etc.).

Now, as to planting disinformation, my ruling has always been that since the wording states clearly that if they know something, you can find it, the only time the target can really do the "think of a lie" thing with any degree of success is if the mage only succeeds at the surface thoughts level.

Since if you get to conscious thought, you can retrieve any information that they consciously know, you automatically get the "right security code", because they know it and that's what you are searching for. Since you've also succeeded on the surface thoughts level, I might toss in a little "you also 'hear' the target repeating a string of numbers in his surface thoughts, obviously he's trying to lie and confuse you".

If the mage gets down to unconscious thought, there's no way for the target to be lying, unless he/she genuinely believes the information to be true.

And to expand on that a little, one of the best GM tool/tricks in regard to Mind Probe is using what the target believes to be true. I'm not talking about saying "that's just what he thought" every time, that would be weak GMing (you can't just take away PC success every time). But think about the situation, the NPC, the information the mage wants. Sometimes, a target really isn't going to know. As long as it's realistic and fits the game, you're running it right.

(Please keep in mind, with this paragraph, that I'm only assuming that the SR4 version of the spell is similar enough that this still applies. If not, then take it as SR3 advice. wink.gif) Also, keep in mind that Mind Probe doesn't suddenly allow you to lock into their brain and start reading their mind on continuous play. It allows you to find the answer to a question, or a piece of information. Every following piece of information you try to get, you're casting at the -2. Actually enforcing this rule can go a long way toward bringing Mind Probe back from the brink of game-ruination.
Demerzel
QUOTE (eidolon)
Every following piece of information you try to get, you're casting at the -2. Actually enforcing this rule can go a long way toward bringing Mind Probe back from the brink of game-ruination.

Is Mind Probe instant or Sustained? If it is instant than I can grant you this. However if it is a sustained spell then I'd say you're making a house rule.
eidolon
Good catch. It's been a while since I ran, sadly.

Yes, the more limited reading I just gave is more house/my rule than canon. By canon SR3, you can get one piece of information per initiative pass as long as the spell is sustained. If you're running it like that, it's even more important to utilize the target's awareness of the spell.

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