Something came up last night in our game.
We are planning a run and part of the plan includes my mage summoning three elemntals to carry out vital tasks.
Often in planning a run elementals are part of it. Now we often get expenses as part of our payment and when we don't if we need something we don't normally use it comes out of group funds. We always take 10% of payment and put it in a team fund for this.
I asked that the cost of summoning these elementals be part of expenses I thought it was a reasonable request after all we were talking about 3000 Nunien coming out of my pocket.
The GM said that the Johnson would never agree to pay mage costs and some of the other players got upset saying that why should I get an extra 3000 Nunien.
This is really making me angry I don't expect the others to pay for any elementals that I keep on tap for my use I have often used my elementals to save their butts. I came up with the 120,000 to buy a spirit focus.
But in my opinion if I have to summon a special elemental for a run as part of the plan why do I have to eat the cost. I mean we are charging the boat rental, the rigger's fee, special grabbling hooks and knock out gas to expenses so what is different about the elementals?
I was short 1500 for this so the team loaned me the difference but it comes out of my share of the money for the job. How is this fair no one else has to pay out of pocket for anything expect maybe ammo but I buy ammo myself too.
So am I wrong in how I am looking at this?
Full Version: charging for summoning elementals
Just tell the group that since summoning is cutting too much into your profits, the group will have to do without them. After enough plans that require an elemental to complete them and you refusing to summon them, they will either get the idea or contact an NPC to summon them, and have to pay the NPC for the same cost or more.
No, you are not. Your team (and gm) are being very unreasonable about this. Personally I wouldn't use elementals for them until they saw how useful they were and also saw how it should be covered for expenses.
The spirit focus is something you did on your own so you shouldn't expect them to cover that, not sure if that's what you were saying, but it was in the post.
I agree with Konsaki make them hire someone else to summon elementals and have them pay out their nose for a service, which may not be reliable or as strong as yours. After a few runs like that they'll have no problems with covering your costs.
The spirit focus is something you did on your own so you shouldn't expect them to cover that, not sure if that's what you were saying, but it was in the post.
I agree with Konsaki make them hire someone else to summon elementals and have them pay out their nose for a service, which may not be reliable or as strong as yours. After a few runs like that they'll have no problems with covering your costs.
| QUOTE (Angelone) |
| No, you are not. Your team (and gm) are being very unreasonable about this. Personally I wouldn't use elementals for them until they saw how useful they were and also saw how it should be covered for expenses. The spirit focus is something you did on your own so you shouldn't expect them to cover that, not sure if that's what you were saying, but it was in the post. I agree with Konsaki make them hire someone else to summon elementals and have them pay out their nose for a service, which may not be reliable or as strong as yours. After a few runs like that they'll have no problems with covering your costs. |
I forgot to add why I brought up the spirit focus. One of the things that was brought up in the session was how much it cost the cybered characters to add new cyberware to their characters and that they did not expect to be reinbursed for it.
One of the arguments against paying for the summoning costs is that I might get more than one service from an elmental and that was an extra profit over the top of our payment for my character.
They can also use the grappling hooks more than once, you should bring that up and tell them that can't come out of the expense fund. Oh yeah, the gas might knock out more than one person so that's a no-go as well.
I don't see the justification for that type of attitude don't they see that you would use them during the runs? Why are they upset that you have the chance to save everyone money? The cybered characters didn't have to get cyber, they made that choice so they can't bitch about it.
I love my group, we realize that we are only as good as our weakest link so we help each other out. We either steal or chip in for upgrades as the opportunity presents itself. Oddly enough, we tend to steal the tech, but buy the magic.
I don't see the justification for that type of attitude don't they see that you would use them during the runs? Why are they upset that you have the chance to save everyone money? The cybered characters didn't have to get cyber, they made that choice so they can't bitch about it.
I love my group, we realize that we are only as good as our weakest link so we help each other out. We either steal or chip in for upgrades as the opportunity presents itself. Oddly enough, we tend to steal the tech, but buy the magic.
Just classify summoning materials in the same category as ammo. If rocketboy the walking missile storm pays for his excessive missile addiction out of pocket, deal with treating your summoning the same.
It's a standard expense, like those 50,000 rounds of exex ammo the street sam bought last time, not a special case expense like that limo from the time you had to pretend to be rich.
(edit) And consider giving your elementals interesting orders in future runs so that you can get a new batch of support meaties who won't try to shoot you for taking a little of the slush fund for summoning.
It's a standard expense, like those 50,000 rounds of exex ammo the street sam bought last time, not a special case expense like that limo from the time you had to pretend to be rich.
(edit) And consider giving your elementals interesting orders in future runs so that you can get a new batch of support meaties who won't try to shoot you for taking a little of the slush fund for summoning.
Sounds to me, Elfwitch, like you're hanging with the wrong runners. Our group's policy is that all the upfront money is used to buy whatever special dodads we're gonna need for the run. Take for instance, our latest run (just a simple break in and destroy some product while inserting a virus to get rid of the specs for said product kind of run). We all figured that my character (the Troll Merc) should have some big explosive rounds (for extra cool fireworks). After the run, we found that I had plenty extra. Now rather than fuss and futter about how I would need to reimburse the others for my 'overpurchace' we just tacitly agreed that I would use the remaining rounds on another run.
Nice and Simple.
Mark
Nice and Simple.
Mark
I'm not surprised that the Johnson "refused to pay mage costs" - he's not paying for each single thing the runners do. He's paying some money to get the job done, and it's up to the runners to make a profit.
But I have to agree with the others about the rest of the team. Tell them that you're not asking for a bigger share, you're asking to have your *expenses* paid from the group fund, just like your fellow runners. Tell them that you're not summoning the elementals for yourself, so if the *team* wants those elementals it should be the *team* paying for them.
Tell them that if the team doesn't want those elementals you're OK with that, you don't need them either. But the team's plan will have to change, because you *will not* pay for the team's plan, period.
I'm not saying you should never bite the bullet and pay for something you don't *have* to. Heck, just a week ago we did a run that turned into a financial catastrophe. Kind of a charity work for one player's contact, total income (including loot, and that's not something we're usually big on) was about 30kY, and our medical costs alone were upwards of 80kY. Two Deadly wounds, and yes, it was because they suffered a temporary lapse of sanity in the middle of combat (plus a stroke of bad luck) so it was their own fault, but we are a *team* and we helped them to pay those costs. Not a fair share, I admit, but we helped - because next time it could be us.
But to *always* be the one paying for the others...
Tell them that if they won't pay for the materials they will have to pay an NPC for materials *and* services, and that you're willing to pay a fair share of that. And that if they don't like your attitude, you'll wish them luck finding a mage who will accept *their* attitude.
But I have to agree with the others about the rest of the team. Tell them that you're not asking for a bigger share, you're asking to have your *expenses* paid from the group fund, just like your fellow runners. Tell them that you're not summoning the elementals for yourself, so if the *team* wants those elementals it should be the *team* paying for them.
Tell them that if the team doesn't want those elementals you're OK with that, you don't need them either. But the team's plan will have to change, because you *will not* pay for the team's plan, period.
I'm not saying you should never bite the bullet and pay for something you don't *have* to. Heck, just a week ago we did a run that turned into a financial catastrophe. Kind of a charity work for one player's contact, total income (including loot, and that's not something we're usually big on) was about 30kY, and our medical costs alone were upwards of 80kY. Two Deadly wounds, and yes, it was because they suffered a temporary lapse of sanity in the middle of combat (plus a stroke of bad luck) so it was their own fault, but we are a *team* and we helped them to pay those costs. Not a fair share, I admit, but we helped - because next time it could be us.
But to *always* be the one paying for the others...
Tell them that if they won't pay for the materials they will have to pay an NPC for materials *and* services, and that you're willing to pay a fair share of that. And that if they don't like your attitude, you'll wish them luck finding a mage who will accept *their* attitude.
| QUOTE (Angelone) |
| No, you are not. Your team (and gm) are being very unreasonable about this. |
Team yes, GM no. Why should the Johnson pay for expenses? The runners decide if they want the job, and then they figure out how to do it in a profitable manner.
Granted the GM is already having the J pay for expenses, but IMO that's silly to begin with.
~J
Why? I've frequently had players use the "expenses card" in bargaining. Even if it's technically just fluff for their negotiation tests, it's far from unreasonable.
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Nov 6 2006, 11:11 AM) | ||
Team yes, GM no. Why should the Johnson pay for expenses? The runners decide if they want the job, and then they figure out how to do it in a profitable manner. Granted the GM is already having the J pay for expenses, but IMO that's silly to begin with. ~J |
The J was already paying for expenses for the run except the mages. Kinda silly, that's why the gm was unreasonable. The J pays expenses to help the runners out on some costs that would otherwise keep them from taking the run, such as travel EDIT- or gear UNEDIT. The J could also just provide the tickets or gear the runners don't have but that can be traced, so they usually just hand out an expense fund.
The team has an expense fund for things like that 10% of their take. If I weren't allowed into that I wouldn't pay it personally. Say it's so you can cover your own expenses.
BTW to the OP what is the team expense fund for if team members can't use it?
If they don't want to pay for elementals, then they don't have to. But if you don't want your elementals to be for someone else's benefit, you don't have to do that either. Find a way to do the run without elementals. Reach a compromise or not, so long as the game carries on.
If you're summoning up an elemental specifically for use in a run, then the summoning costs are a team expense.
If you're summoning an elemental for other things and decide to use it on the run, then it's not a team expense.
If your elemental lasts longer then the run is a valid argument for why they shouldn't pay for it, then make sure that nothing they buy can be used for more than one run. Destroy it after if necessairy. Because really, it's the same thing.
Otherwise, I'd start lying about the materials. "Sorry guys, I'm out. You want elementals for these tasks, you're going to need to get the summoning materials. I'll be more than happy to do the work, but I'm not making the special trip to buy conjuring materials just so you can have an elemental for this. I'm saving up for (insert next big focus)"
If you're summoning an elemental for other things and decide to use it on the run, then it's not a team expense.
If your elemental lasts longer then the run is a valid argument for why they shouldn't pay for it, then make sure that nothing they buy can be used for more than one run. Destroy it after if necessairy. Because really, it's the same thing.
Otherwise, I'd start lying about the materials. "Sorry guys, I'm out. You want elementals for these tasks, you're going to need to get the summoning materials. I'll be more than happy to do the work, but I'm not making the special trip to buy conjuring materials just so you can have an elemental for this. I'm saving up for (insert next big focus)"
I wonder, is this more of an in-character or out-of-character issue? Hopefully it's just in-character.
You guys seem to be business-concious. If the conjuring is not cost-effective, just don't do it. Find a way to do the job that is worth the money. I imagine that only you (or rather, your character) can make the choice to conjure elementals. If the other team members are trying to "make" you conjure, you have to reexamine your role in the team. Why would your character bother to take the job if he's not expecting to profit from it?
You guys seem to be business-concious. If the conjuring is not cost-effective, just don't do it. Find a way to do the job that is worth the money. I imagine that only you (or rather, your character) can make the choice to conjure elementals. If the other team members are trying to "make" you conjure, you have to reexamine your role in the team. Why would your character bother to take the job if he's not expecting to profit from it?
This really is only tangential to the discussion, but I was amazed at the results when they were implemented.
My mages quit spending money on conjuring matrials. They started fighting for control of NPC elementals whenever they were sent against them. They wound up with Charisma worth of elementals usually owing several services. Power foci and ally aid power helped, as well as centering for success.
Next time you meet an elemental, try to control it instead of banishing.
My mages quit spending money on conjuring matrials. They started fighting for control of NPC elementals whenever they were sent against them. They wound up with Charisma worth of elementals usually owing several services. Power foci and ally aid power helped, as well as centering for success.
Next time you meet an elemental, try to control it instead of banishing.
As far as the J paying, just go by "Official Johnson Guidelines". Offer 80% of what you're really willing to pay, and let them "bargain you up". No fuss, no muss, and you get to bring in a smaller expense report to the boss if the team isn't to picky.
| QUOTE (Dog) |
| I wonder, is this more of an in-character or out-of-character issue? Hopefully it's just in-character. You guys seem to be business-concious. If the conjuring is not cost-effective, just don't do it. Find a way to do the job that is worth the money. I imagine that only you (or rather, your character) can make the choice to conjure elementals. If the other team members are trying to "make" you conjure, you have to reexamine your role in the team. Why would your character bother to take the job if he's not expecting to profit from it? |
I think its a little bit of both. Both in game and out game.
Our original team has changed with a player moving away and we added two new players.
One of the new players just happens to be the GMs best friend. When we added him to the team we had not been playing for awhile and the way the GM restarted the game was that we had been captured and the new player was part of a team that rescued us. His entire team but him was killed when they went to the meet to get paid.
So anyway he found these cred sticks on the boat provide for him to rescue us and they were worth about 400,000 he also sold the boat and got another 500,000 we on the other hand lost everything all our belongings, cred sticks, weapons foci, we had to go on the run.
Now a powerful man helped us get new identities and set us up in England gave us some weapons, a cool new headquaters, and little cred to replace some of what we lost.
But the point of the matter is the rest of us have about 2000 to our name and this one player had 900,00 he has loaned money to help us but he keeps a strict accounting and on runs after the ten percent taken out for team funds he gets 50% in repayment plus a full share of the run before the 50% is taken out and we divide up the rest.
This really bugging the three old players for a lot of reasons we never played like this before sure we split the run money but there were times when one of us needed something and we would go on a run to make the money to get it for example my first foci was for increased reflexes and the team went on a run to buy it the entire money from the run paid for it. Or when our street sam got hurt bad and some of his cyberware was damaged we did the same thing because that was our philosophy we were a team first. The philosophy of you are only as good as your weakest member.
The new guy does not play like this he says it is to DnD not Shadowrun. He says that there is no role playing reson of why he would be willing to share his money that way. And he says he would feel this way if it was the other way around and he was the broke one.
So my character does feel as this point that we are no longer the team we were and so feels that certain expenses should not come out of pocket especially since the rest of the team never has to pay a lot of money for run supplies.
And the player feels that our GM was wrong to give him that much money to start with even though I had a suspicion he did not expect the player to be like he is with the money.
| QUOTE (tisoz) |
| This really is only tangential to the discussion, but I was amazed at the results when they were implemented. My mages quit spending money on conjuring matrials. They started fighting for control of NPC elementals whenever they were sent against them. They wound up with Charisma worth of elementals usually owing several services. Power foci and ally aid power helped, as well as centering for success. Next time you meet an elemental, try to control it instead of banishing. |
I have done that in the past but right now we have not encountered any elementals.
Easy answer: kill the new guy.
Or you could go for more team buidling, try to make him "one of the guys", give him an in character reason.
Or you could go for more team buidling, try to make him "one of the guys", give him an in character reason.
IMO, the GM was wrong. The player's actions, though, are harder to judge. Shadowrunners are teammates, not necessarily friends, and probably only run together regularly because of the artifact of being played by a consistent group of players—from an in-character perspective, if he hasn't developed any deeper attachment to the rest of the team, it would be silly for him to be giving (or even loaning—Shadowrunners are bad risks) you money.
Team-first philosophy only works when you are, first and foremost, a team. It sounds like you're assuming that he's in on the team just because he's also a PC. Try bringing him in in-character, but be warned that he'll probably think you're just after his money (doubly so since it's true
).
~J
Team-first philosophy only works when you are, first and foremost, a team. It sounds like you're assuming that he's in on the team just because he's also a PC. Try bringing him in in-character, but be warned that he'll probably think you're just after his money (doubly so since it's true
).~J
| QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0) |
| Easy answer: kill the new guy. |
That'd be my character's response.
That is a problem that creeps up a lot. The whole "we should be friends/allies because we're all PC's". It's a OOC assumption for IC play. Sometimes it's a good thing. Keeps people from killing other's PC's because they don't liek them or they pissed them off. Other times it creates problems like "wait, why are we running with this tool again? I hate this guy!" This is one of the reasons or group usually has each player make a few different characters to have an active 'stable' of runners. Anyone remember that old cartoon "Mask" with all the vehicle guys with, well, masks, where they pick the guys donig the 'operation' at the beginning of each episode? It's kind of like that with us until we get an active team.
| QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0) |
| Easy answer: kill the new guy. Or you could go for more team buidling, try to make him "one of the guys", give him an in character reason. |
Can't kill him the GM has a rule about that if you kill another PC your character is out of the game.
Kill the GM. Or just walk.
~J
~J
You should start a mage-only union and go on strike...
Seriously, I agree with what Dog said: just make sure the conflict is in-game and not ooc. Jealousy (or any form of greediness) can arise easily in a game and I can see the street sam complaining about not getting more money for his guns and bullets, and the rigger could easily complain about not getting reimbursed every time he fires a missile from his armored van. And I'm pretty sure the rigger doesn't use missiles outside runs (well, I hope so!).
I personally think that unless we're talking 25k
per run, it shouldn't be a big concern. If you need more than 2 or 3 elementals to do the job, it's probably a suicidal run anyway!
I got a question here: What would happen if the team found a sustaining focus or any other magical item? Would you (the mage) keep it or the team would sell it? My point here is that sometimes you lose but sometimes you win. But keep in mind that everyone's a winner when you're having fun so it shouldn't become such a big deal...
Would it be nice to actually find more magical stuff, including conjuring materials, during runs? Maybe talk to your friendly neighborhood GM about it. He might be willing to drop conjuring materials (once in a while) in a weapon cache during a run (or even magical scrolls... err, I mean spell formulas).
Hope it helps! Don't forget to tell us how it will end...
Peace!
Crossfire
Seriously, I agree with what Dog said: just make sure the conflict is in-game and not ooc. Jealousy (or any form of greediness) can arise easily in a game and I can see the street sam complaining about not getting more money for his guns and bullets, and the rigger could easily complain about not getting reimbursed every time he fires a missile from his armored van. And I'm pretty sure the rigger doesn't use missiles outside runs (well, I hope so!).
I personally think that unless we're talking 25k
per run, it shouldn't be a big concern. If you need more than 2 or 3 elementals to do the job, it's probably a suicidal run anyway!I got a question here: What would happen if the team found a sustaining focus or any other magical item? Would you (the mage) keep it or the team would sell it? My point here is that sometimes you lose but sometimes you win. But keep in mind that everyone's a winner when you're having fun so it shouldn't become such a big deal...
Would it be nice to actually find more magical stuff, including conjuring materials, during runs? Maybe talk to your friendly neighborhood GM about it. He might be willing to drop conjuring materials (once in a while) in a weapon cache during a run (or even magical scrolls... err, I mean spell formulas).
Hope it helps! Don't forget to tell us how it will end...
Peace!
Crossfire
| QUOTE (Elfwitch @ Nov 7 2006, 12:38 AM) | ||
Can't kill him the GM has a rule about that if you kill another PC your character is out of the game. |
Well, you could always take the last ditch out: talk to the GM about the problem. not so much the paying for elementals, because form the Johnson side, that can change from run to run. From the team side, that's something you can work out amongst yourselves.
talk to him abou the the lopsidedness of the campaign. If he's so big on insisting that there are no incharacter reasons for the "team mate" to share, feel free to point out that there's no IC reason for you not to kill him
[ Spoiler ]
. He's living on the high horse, possible luxury lifestyle, while you guys are scraping by. These are professional criminals after all.or, more diplomatically, just point out that it's making negative feelings to the new guy and that is not a good way to integrate a new player.
Turn about is fair play. Don't help him if he needs it, or charge him if you do. He wants to be part of the team charge a "membership fee" so you know he's not going to screw you over. Grab him by the and milk it for all it's worth. Cause trouble for him if you have to, a few tips to the police or criminal organizations about things he's done that may or may not be true, will have him running to ya'll for help. Charge him big or walk away your choice. Just don't let him screw you with stuff the character couldn't possibly know.
and milk it for all it's worth. Cause trouble for him if you have to, a few tips to the police or criminal organizations about things he's done that may or may not be true, will have him running to ya'll for help. Charge him big or walk away your choice. Just don't let him screw you with stuff the character couldn't possibly know.
| QUOTE (Elfwitch) |
| I think its a little bit of both. Both in game and out game. Our original team has changed with a player moving away and we added two new players. One of the new players just happens to be the GMs best friend. When we added him to the team we had not been playing for awhile and the way the GM restarted the game was that we had been captured and the new player was part of a team that rescued us. His entire team but him was killed when they went to the meet to get paid. So anyway he found these cred sticks on the boat provide for him to rescue us and they were worth about 400,000 he also sold the boat and got another 500,000 we on the other hand lost everything all our belongings, cred sticks, weapons foci, we had to go on the run. Now a powerful man helped us get new identities and set us up in England gave us some weapons, a cool new headquaters, and little cred to replace some of what we lost. But the point of the matter is the rest of us have about 2000 to our name and this one player had 900,00 he has loaned money to help us but he keeps a strict accounting and on runs after the ten percent taken out for team funds he gets 50% in repayment plus a full share of the run before the 50% is taken out and we divide up the rest. This really bugging the three old players for a lot of reasons we never played like this before sure we split the run money but there were times when one of us needed something and we would go on a run to make the money to get it for example my first foci was for increased reflexes and the team went on a run to buy it the entire money from the run paid for it. Or when our street sam got hurt bad and some of his cyberware was damaged we did the same thing because that was our philosophy we were a team first. The philosophy of you are only as good as your weakest member. The new guy does not play like this he says it is to DnD not Shadowrun. He says that there is no role playing reson of why he would be willing to share his money that way. And he says he would feel this way if it was the other way around and he was the broke one. So my character does feel as this point that we are no longer the team we were and so feels that certain expenses should not come out of pocket especially since the rest of the team never has to pay a lot of money for run supplies. And the player feels that our GM was wrong to give him that much money to start with even though I had a suspicion he did not expect the player to be like he is with the money. |
Elfwitch, let me make sure I got this straight. Correct me if I'm wrong:
Your GM just "declared" that you guys had been captured.
...then he rewarded a new player for "rescuing" you.
...and killed off the rest of the NPC rescue team so that this one guy would get the reward.
...and provided a boat that must've cost about 1.5 million
...that the new player got to keep and sell off for his own profit
..and on which he "found" 400 000
?!If that's the case, I'd tell the new player to screw himself. Then tell your GM he's got one chance to set things right before you and your other players pack up and start a new gaming group. That's incredibly unfair.
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| IMO, the GM was wrong. The player's actions, though, are harder to judge. Shadowrunners are teammates, not necessarily friends, and probably only run together regularly because of the artifact of being played by a consistent group of players—from an in-character perspective, if he hasn't developed any deeper attachment to the rest of the team, it would be silly for him to be giving (or even loaning—Shadowrunners are bad risks) you money. Team-first philosophy only works when you are, first and foremost, a team. It sounds like you're assuming that he's in on the team just because he's also a PC. Try bringing him in in-character, but be warned that he'll probably think you're just after his money (doubly so since it's true ).~J |
I understand the whole team thing not being everyone style of play. Our old team had reasons for the way we behaved we were friends as well as runners.
We understand that he is not going to be a part of the team in the same way at first that it takes time and we are pretty good role players to recognize this fact which is why not one of us has asked him for money or expected him to share his money. He volunteered to loan the money and he is getting paid interest.
The way the plot has unfolded we are in a special situation we have to be careful of what we do we have two powerful corps and one military government after us because we saw something by accident that we were not supposed to see. So we have to be extra careful on who we bring in all it would take is one greedy runner to sell us out.
This guy because he rescued us is now wanted by the same groups so it is in his interest to stay with us. The other new character came to us by way of an important ally she also has run into the same problem as the rest of us.
Our GM does not like to play a game where you are bringing in new characters all the time he does a lot with backstories and so a game where you formed a new team for every run would not work for us. Our game has been going on since right before the end of second edition and the world and characters are very detailed. We do more than just go on runs.
The money issue is causing friction for example our shaman had enough money to buy a force three power focus he was just waiting on getting enough karma then we got captured and lost everything so now he has to wait and wait. At the rate we are going it will take a long time before we get the kind of money he needs.
We have been pretty good sports about the whole capture thing we had taken a break from the game and to restart the GM decided it would be cool to move the world ahead a couple of years we were on ice for several years. So getting captured and losing everything was not because we had done anything wrong in actual play.
If your teammates don't appreciate your elementals then give the gift of elementals. You can give service that you are owed to any other character simply by ordering your elemental to perform those services for that character. But, here is the catch, the elemental doesn't have a mystical to the mundane who he was ordered to serve so he has to follow that mundane around 24/7 until his services are expended. And that gets fragging annoying. Having an elemental one step behind you all the time, breathing down your neck, asking "you want me to go something now?" every 15 seconds, it gets old fast. And lets not even mention trying to sleep with a giant flaming fireelemental hovering over your bed as your night-light.
Eventually, a mundane in this situation is going to crack and tell his elemental "don't stand so close to me" (Her friends are so jealous; You know how bad girls get) and that is a service.
And every time someone wants to use an elemental for a plan you sell the elemental's services to them and keep the one's that they don't need for yourself. Of course, a mundane character being pestered by an omnipresent elemental is far more likely to waste the services on a dry turkey sandwich than a mage who left the spirit on call in the metaplanes is.
Eventually, a mundane in this situation is going to crack and tell his elemental "don't stand so close to me" (Her friends are so jealous; You know how bad girls get) and that is a service.
And every time someone wants to use an elemental for a plan you sell the elemental's services to them and keep the one's that they don't need for yourself. Of course, a mundane character being pestered by an omnipresent elemental is far more likely to waste the services on a dry turkey sandwich than a mage who left the spirit on call in the metaplanes is.
Still a sucky way to introduce a newbie to a campaign he's like a gmpc, but not. "Ya'll are captured and lost everything, but Slapnuts here saves you cause he's so cool. Now you owe him YOUR VERY SOULS!" Whatever, sure the gm may have rules against killing a PC, but a NPC hitman will do quite nicely.
| QUOTE (Elfwitch) |
| So getting captured and losing everything was not because we had done anything wrong in actual play. |
He did that to introduce a new character?!I can't believe this guy!
| QUOTE (Dog) | ||
Elfwitch, let me make sure I got this straight. Correct me if I'm wrong: Your GM just "declared" that you guys had been captured. ...then he rewarded a new player for "rescuing" you. ...and killed off the rest of the NPC rescue team so that this one guy would get the reward. ...and provided a boat that must've cost about 1.5 million ...that the new player got to keep and sell off for his own profit ..and on which he "found" 400 000 ?!If that's the case, I'd tell the new player to screw himself. Then tell your GM he's got one chance to set things right before you and your other players pack up and start a new gaming group. That's incredibly unfair. |
The GM is a friend and a good guy and other than this issue I love the game he comes with a lot of fun plots and lot of exictment.
Like I said earlier I don't think he meant for the player to have his character keep all the money he was used to the way we played before.
The new guy is not really that new we have been playing for a year now with him. He is also the GM best friend. And I have noticed that sometimes the GM can't see issues with him.
Now the money issue as had lately things cropping up related to it. The fact that debt we are paying off is killing us and we can't reeqiup that easily.
I don't mind if he wants to role play keeping all the money and being paid back and really role playing that he is a lone wolf forced to leave the Caribleague he loves and to deal with the loss of his team which he had brother on.
But I do mind this elemental issue because I don't think I being unreasonable about it. His player made the biggest stink about it saying that if team funds paid for it then he wanted all his ammo and anything he bought for running to be paid as well. The team funds can't cover everything we buy for runs.
Like I said before I don't expect the team to fund any elementals that I choose to summon for my use on a run I usually have one or two in case I need them. But when a plan calls for a specific elmental and I have to summon it I think it should be considered a team expense the same as any other.
Send him to this topic. He will see that a lot of reasonable people who like this game so much that we spend the vast majority of our time bitching about it on an internet message board things that he is being both an ass and a douchebag about this one and The New Guy is blatant GM's Girlfriend. If he doesn't like that assessment then he can just subpoena our IP addresses, track us all down, fly to our homes, and beat the living crap out of us one-by-one.
The GM may be a great guy and and great GM, I have no doubt about this, and The New Guy may be great too; but, The New Guy's introduction is so Mary-Sueish and the leverage that he holds over the other PCs so great that I just have to call GM's Girlfriend on him. Everyone knows the archetype for the GM's Girlfriend, she is always perfect, never fails a roll, and can't do anything wrong because the GM wants to continue getting laid.
I'm not accusing them of having a homo-erotic love affair. He gave his friend far too much of an advantage because they are friends but he needs to see that it was too much of an advantage.
In regards to the IC situation, you may consider offering to lend any leftover services to the Johnson, that why the Johnson gets full value for his money and he can order your own elementals to kill you when it enviably betrays you. (You can take the services back but it'll put you off guard and eat an action.)
The GM may be a great guy and and great GM, I have no doubt about this, and The New Guy may be great too; but, The New Guy's introduction is so Mary-Sueish and the leverage that he holds over the other PCs so great that I just have to call GM's Girlfriend on him. Everyone knows the archetype for the GM's Girlfriend, she is always perfect, never fails a roll, and can't do anything wrong because the GM wants to continue getting laid.
I'm not accusing them of having a homo-erotic love affair. He gave his friend far too much of an advantage because they are friends but he needs to see that it was too much of an advantage.
In regards to the IC situation, you may consider offering to lend any leftover services to the Johnson, that why the Johnson gets full value for his money and he can order your own elementals to kill you when it enviably betrays you. (You can take the services back but it'll put you off guard and eat an action.)
Easy enough way to fix the money imbalance, do a shadowrun against the rich prick teammate. Steal the Cert Credsticks and no one is the wiser, posession is 9/10ths of the law for unregistered credsticks, brute force is the other tenth.
Plus there are ways to mess with his character without killing him. Cast the armor spell (Force 1) on him while walking down main street or something. A glowing person usually screams mage, and NPC's (if played right) will go after him first.
Plus there are ways to mess with his character without killing him. Cast the armor spell (Force 1) on him while walking down main street or something. A glowing person usually screams mage, and NPC's (if played right) will go after him first.
If this guy has all the financial power, give him all the financial responsibility.
Turn over all your working gear towards your debt. Tell this guy that he's now the group's fixer.
He attends the meet and negotiates with Johnson, then contacts you and hires you for the job. Mr. Johnson only deals with him, it's his run. When it's time to collect at the end of the run. Johnson pays only him.
You only work to pay off your debt, and make it clear how much money comes off the debt for each job. Probably something lower than standard, because you're only sub-contractors. You supply nothing but your brains and bodies.
Meahwhile, he supplies all gear and completely finances the run. He pays your team's basic lifestyle costs while you sit around and wait for him to make use of you.
He wants you to come to the meet? That'll be extra. The team needs transportation for the job? He's buying. He wants you to conjure elementals? He buys the materials. He wants you to get shot at? He pays your medical costs. The job calls for a certain piece of gear? That's for him to purchase... and so on.
And maybe give him subtle reminders to think about how things are gonna change once the debt is paid off...
Turn over all your working gear towards your debt. Tell this guy that he's now the group's fixer.
He attends the meet and negotiates with Johnson, then contacts you and hires you for the job. Mr. Johnson only deals with him, it's his run. When it's time to collect at the end of the run. Johnson pays only him.
You only work to pay off your debt, and make it clear how much money comes off the debt for each job. Probably something lower than standard, because you're only sub-contractors. You supply nothing but your brains and bodies.
Meahwhile, he supplies all gear and completely finances the run. He pays your team's basic lifestyle costs while you sit around and wait for him to make use of you.
He wants you to come to the meet? That'll be extra. The team needs transportation for the job? He's buying. He wants you to conjure elementals? He buys the materials. He wants you to get shot at? He pays your medical costs. The job calls for a certain piece of gear? That's for him to purchase... and so on.
And maybe give him subtle reminders to think about how things are gonna change once the debt is paid off...
I love the way you think. That's perfect. He wants all the power give him all the responsiblity along with it.
Please keep in mind that personal attacks aren't kosher, even if the person being attacked isn't a member of the boards. Thanks.
My apologies, I'll tone it down. Just don't like the situation that the rest of the group was placed in.
Guys, mod posts don't necessarily apply directly to the post they follow. Most of the time, if we're posting in the thread, it's a general response or preemptive nudge.
I don't think any of us are on consistently enough that our posts will directly follow the offending post every time.
If something goes down that an individual poster merits direct warning, we have a warning system and the person will be made aware.
I don't think any of us are on consistently enough that our posts will directly follow the offending post every time.
If something goes down that an individual poster merits direct warning, we have a warning system and the person will be made aware.
| QUOTE (Dog) |
| If this guy has all the financial power, give him all the financial responsibility. Turn over all your working gear towards your debt. Tell this guy that he's now the group's fixer. He attends the meet and negotiates with Johnson, then contacts you and hires you for the job. Mr. Johnson only deals with him, it's his run. When it's time to collect at the end of the run. Johnson pays only him. You only work to pay off your debt, and make it clear how much money comes off the debt for each job. Probably something lower than standard, because you're only sub-contractors. You supply nothing but your brains and bodies. Meahwhile, he supplies all gear and completely finances the run. He pays your team's basic lifestyle costs while you sit around and wait for him to make use of you. He wants you to come to the meet? That'll be extra. The team needs transportation for the job? He's buying. He wants you to conjure elementals? He buys the materials. He wants you to get shot at? He pays your medical costs. The job calls for a certain piece of gear? That's for him to purchase... and so on. And maybe give him subtle reminders to think about how things are gonna change once the debt is paid off... |
How about taking this a step further? "So I was checking out the (insert vehicle here) after the run to check for any damage. And well, we need a new engine." Or have gear disappear. "Now where'd that crate of ammo go?"
Or you can take it into Negotiations or Intimidation rolls.
If he fails, he has been either talked into or scared into playing nicer.
I've done that a few times in D&D when someone tries to hoard something for themselves when it would be more of a benefit for someone else on the team or the team as a whole. You just need to talk to the GM beforehand to see if he will make the character go along with it.
You have to worry about if you fail though, because if you do, you have been talked into leaving it alone...
If he fails, he has been either talked into or scared into playing nicer.
I've done that a few times in D&D when someone tries to hoard something for themselves when it would be more of a benefit for someone else on the team or the team as a whole. You just need to talk to the GM beforehand to see if he will make the character go along with it.
You have to worry about if you fail though, because if you do, you have been talked into leaving it alone...
Screw it! Fuck him up and take his stuff!
Deal with the GM-fallout afterward. If either of the two (GM and friend) are in the slightest bit reasonable, they'll more than likely come around ... eventually.
Deal with the GM-fallout afterward. If either of the two (GM and friend) are in the slightest bit reasonable, they'll more than likely come around ... eventually.
| QUOTE (eidolon) |
| Please keep in mind that personal attacks aren't kosher, even if the person being attacked isn't a member of the boards. Thanks. |
Wow, you guys are cracking down. Mia culpa, for my part. Glad to see it, by the way.
Heh heh... fish.
| QUOTE (Dog @ Nov 7 2006, 06:16 PM) |
| Glad to see it, by the way. |
Enforced civility is not a good thing.
~J
| QUOTE (Dog) |
| Wow, you guys are cracking down. |
A bit too quickly, in my opinion.
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) | ||
Enforced civility is not a good thing. ~J |
There are times that Dog is right, and times that Kagetenshi's right. It's all about moderation, and this is a bit extreme.
This thread wasn't bad in my mind, so lets keep it that way. There is a more appropriate place for this discussion. So let's continue to help a fellow player with ideas here.
Do you have a decker onteam? Have him take care of it. I don't know if you're playing SR4, but if you are you can prolly access all of his accounts and take a good bit from there. Or just have the decker have him harrassed until he is on a level playing field.
Or better yet, since all of you are wanted by the same people, make a deal with them to let you guys go in return for telling them where he is. Then charge hi9m bodyguard services.
Or better yet, since all of you are wanted by the same people, make a deal with them to let you guys go in return for telling them where he is. Then charge hi9m bodyguard services.
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Nov 7 2006, 07:12 PM) | ||
Enforced civility is not a good thing. ~J |
Agreed utterly.
As to this problem, it's really not the players, but the GM's. He's created this mess, he's first port of call to clean it up. You should point out to him that the situation which he directly brought about and which you went along with without complaint, has resulted in a miserable set up. If he's willing to abduct your characters for the sake of introducing a new PC, then he ought to be able to pull out the odd Deus Ex Machinae to rectify the situation.
And if he doesn't promptly rectify the situation, then you resort to some of the in-character tactics listed here. After all, you're professional criminals. This means you make your own morality, not allow a legal system to tell you what is right or wrong. Why should you honour some debt from someone you've only just met and which has put you in a miserable position? I can think of few Shadowrunners that would not just take their money back. What's he going to do? Take you to court? Quite frankly, your character's meek acceptance badly undermines any plausibility. They shoot people but wont default on a debt?
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