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Chandon
[ edit ] Current version:
http://ferrus.net/~nat/chandon-ammo2.html
[/ edit ]

http://ferrus.net/~nat/chandon-ammo.html

I've wanted to actually specify specific ammo types for weapons for a while, and I had a couple hours today. The link above is what I've started with.

In addition to providing flavor by naming the ammo types (i.e. "9mm Auto"), I've also sneakily gotten rid of Ex-Explosive ammo. I consider that a win.

So... here's what I'd like help on:
- Did I get anything blatantly wrong as far as ammo names? I just hit the "list of rifle cartridges" page on Wikipedia and picked some I'd heard of.
- What megas are those weapon companies owned by? I left my copy of corporate download across the state. I want to get my brand lock-ins correct. I'd really like the Predator IV to be firing "10mm Ares".
- Is there anything obviously wrong with my "Available Types" listing?

I'd obviously like to hear any other comments. I'm aware this is more record keeping for my players - that's fun for me.
Austere Emancipator
You might find this handy.

Is the Colt Americana L36 supposed to be a very small handgun? If not, I'd make it 9x19mm Luger/Parabellum ("9mm Auto"). (This is one of the very few things I disagree on with Raygun.) The Steyr TMP should definitely be 9x19mm. If you want the Predator to fire the 10mm Ares, make it so -- there's no reason why Ares wouldn't make a new caliber with that name. The caliber itself is now just a type classification and not owned by any company.

10mm Auto is a very hefty SMG caliber and one in which HK currently doesn't make SMGs in. I'd rather make the 227 a .45 ACP, .40 S&W or 9x19mm.

The Walther MA-2100 could easily be chambered in .300 Winchester Magnum -- the weapon it's based on, the Walther WA 2000, was originally chambered for that round. The .308 Winchester and 7.62x51mm (ie. what you've got the Stoner-Ares M202 as firing) are very nearly the same caliber, and any security or military weapons in the 2060s-2070s would most likely be chambered for one or the other -- no point keeping those two as separate calibers.

I'm assuming you aren't going to bother with damages, so I won't say much about those. Just keep in mind that if any of your players know about firearms they might start wondering why a .30-06 sporting rifle does so much less damage than a .308 Winchester sniper rifle.

+1 DV/+1 AP seems a bit odd, unless you've done the math and come to the conclusion that that balances out with the given weapon damage codes and armor ratings. +1 DV/+2 AP would at least look better on paper, and not make Regular ammo completely obsolete.

You don't want to give high velocity rifle calibers "Gel" ammo type. It only really makes sense for the shotguns. .50 BMG should get Regular, R-AP, Explosive, and preferably should be the only caliber aside from 12 gauge to get Explosive ammo. Everything except the 8mm Sting and Ares Sliver should get HP. The 8.7mm should probably get P-AP.
GrepZen
If you would like a true to life, accurate, representation...check out http://matrix.dumpshock.com/raygun/ . He has done all work and knows more about firearms & things that go boom than I.
AE give pretty good advice 99.9% of the time too.
yoippari
It isn't blatently wrong, it isn't even wrong, but a 7.62x51mm should fire in a .308 but a .308 has a slightly different case and doesn't fit in a 7.62. This could be a way to mess with players or you could simplify it and only use one or the other.
MYST1C
QUOTE (yoippari)
It isn't blatently wrong, it isn't even wrong, but a 7.62x51mm should fire in a .308 but a .308 has a slightly different case and doesn't fit in a 7.62.

AFAIK there are very minor differences in case dimensions between 7.62x51 and .308. Plus, 7.62x51 has a slightly more powerful powder load.
As a result 7.62x51 produces a higher chamber pressure.
There are two consequences:
a) .308 can be fired from a gun chambered for the more powerful 7.62x51 without problems.
b) 7.62x51 should not be fired from a gun chambered for .308! It is possible, but the shooter risks severe weapon damage and possible injury (worst case scenario: chamber explosion).
yoippari
See how easy it is to mess your players up with that one. The minor case differences sometimes do make the rounds not chamber. It depends on the individual rifle and case. If you do use actual ammo sizes to keep track of interchangeability keep stuff like similar ammo in mind.
Snow_Fox
I think this could be adding unnecssary detail for most poeple.. THAT having been said it certainly could add to game detail if you have that sort of experience. Most people who pick up SR, I suspect have never fired a shot, ever. Let alone have a carry permitt.

I own a couple of handguns and certainly have differnet calibers and brands of ammo. There are .380 and .38 pistol rounds that are very different and fire out of my beretta and webley respectfully, but both would be medium pistols.

Pesonally I have had trouble with Winchester's heavy pistol rounds when the .357 magnum loads-they use a cheaper thinner brass and the force of the shot has misshapped the brass, making it hard to eject. American Eagle, as just another brand, no problems.
So imagine in that setting if Johnson says he's got the ammo and either provides the wrong stuff. .38 and .38 special do NOT fire out of the same gun, or gets the cheap stuff. Infamously in WW1 one of the US's early aces was killed because of defective ammo. He was in a habbit of checking eack and every bullet in a belt to look for defective rounds, when he died he did not have time and the guns jambed
Austere Emancipator
I'm sure Raygun can clear this up for certain, but in the meanwhile re: .308 Winchester vs. 7.62x51mm NATO based on these three articles...
The chamber of a 7.62x51mm NATO weapon has greater headspace and is designed for lower maximum pressure than .308 Winchester rifles. The weapons are therefore slightly different.

The ammunition itself is often not: as a rule, 7.62x51mm NATO ammunition feeds nicely in .308 Winchester weapons and can be fired out of them without any trouble. Most .308 Winchester rounds should also feed well in a 7.62x51mm NATO weapon, but if the ammo is loaded to a high enough a pressure or the case is too weak and/or too loose in the 7.62x51mm chamber, firing it can be unsafe. As long as you pick and choose your ammo, you shouldn't run into problems.

The pressures, ammunition types and chamber designs the above is based on come from the US Sporting Arms & Ammunition Manufacturers Institute and hold for weapons and ammunition you might find in North America, which might explain M¥$T1C's contradictory experience.
MYST1C
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
The pressures, ammunition types and chamber designs the above is based on come from the US Sporting Arms & Ammunition Manufacturers Institute and hold for weapons and ammunition you might find in North America, which might explain M¥$T1C's contradictory experience.

Or maybe I simply remembered wrong and switched the calibers.
After all, the core facts (one type is slightly stronger, one chambering fits both well, the other doesn't) are the same.
Chandon
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
You might find this handy.

Thanks for posting that. If I were a little bit smarter, I would have looked at Raygun's site for that as a starting point. I'm surprised at how similar my guesses were to what he came up with.

I've made some of the changes that you suggested. I'm still trying to decide if there should be Gel rounds in 10mm / .45 - non-lethal ammo is a huge flavor component for the game.

The next thing I'm really interested in is figuring out corporate affiliation for these weapon manufacturers. Once I know that, I can get the larger players to standardize on their own proprietary bullets and then move towards vendor lock-in.

On the down side, I'm probably going to have to port over the guns from Cannon Companion just to make some of this stuff a little more meaningful. The whole idea of vendor lock-in on ammo has a little more impact when vendors actually have more than one compatible gun.
kzt
QUOTE (Chandon)
I've made some of the changes that you suggested. I'm still trying to decide if there should be Gel rounds in 10mm / .45 - non-lethal ammo is a huge flavor component for the game.

My suggestions is that no handgun or rifle has a gell round. It just doesn't work, as the round is either moving fast enough that your going to inflict serious damage, or it is moving so slow that it won't do anything other than sting a bit and probably won't cycle the action.

People who intend to do non-lethal damage will probably need a dedicated weapon for it. Shotguns and tasers, as well as gas and other clever tricks.
Chandon
In the default SR4 setting there is commonly available non-lethal ammo for any weapon type. That fact has a significant impact on the setting. Eliminating ExEx or saying that SMGs don't get Flechette rounds isn't anywhere near as big a game world change as saying that only Shotguns get gel rounds would be.

Now, gel rounds in light pistols or sniper rifles is obviously absurd. Heavy pistols and SMGs are slightly less obvious. I may just re-introduce Stick & Shock for the non-shotgun non-lethal ammo niche. On the other hand, Stick & Shock (as well as Tazers) are sort of retarded rules-wise in a way that wasn't true back in SR3. Gel rounds have 10+ years of history supporting their in-game existence.
Raygun
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
You might find this handy.

Is the Colt Americana L36 supposed to be a very small handgun? If not, I'd make it 9x19mm Luger/Parabellum ("9mm Auto"). (This is one of the very few things I disagree on with Raygun.)

From its picture in SR1 (same as SR4) it looks relatively large, but by its Conceal Rating in SR3 (6) I assumed it to be about the same size as a Beretta 84, which is a .380 Auto. That cartridge fit into the scheme for DCs I was using at the time, so that's pretty much how I got to that. Since adding the "medium pistol" class many a moon ago, I've upped the .380 Auto from 6L to 5M in light pistols. What that would equal in SR4, I'm not sure.

QUOTE
The Steyr TMP should definitely be 9x19mm.

Agreed. Though IIRC, because the TMP was one of the few SMGs to use a form of operation with positive breech locking, it was also made in 10mm Auto (at least in prototype, due to the popularity of the cartridge at the time). It's reasonable to assume that the 10mm Auto would see a resurgence in popularity considering the larger threats.

QUOTE
If you want the Predator to fire the 10mm Ares, make it so -- there's no reason why Ares wouldn't make a new caliber with that name. The caliber itself is now just a type classification and not owned by any company.

Yeah. I pretty much just jacked the cartridge description for the Predator 3e on my site out of the Aliens: Colonial Marines Technical Manual some years ago.

QUOTE
10mm Auto is a very hefty SMG caliber and one in which HK currently doesn't make SMGs in. I'd rather make the 227 a .45 ACP, .40 S&W or 9x19mm.

Again, with the size of threats increasing, an increase of power output would be likely. Quite a while after putting that file together I changed the "base cartridge" for the HK227, making up a proprietary cartridge called the .227 HK as a PDW cartridge (this was several years before they'd introduced the 4.7x30mm in reality) that is compatible in terms of recoil impulse, case head dimensions and action length with the 9mm Para, so that the HK227 can be configured to use either cartridge.

QUOTE
You don't want to give high velocity rifle calibers "Gel" ammo type. It only really makes sense for the shotguns.

Agreed.

QUOTE
I'm sure Raygun can clear this up for certain, but in the meanwhile re: .308 Winchester vs. 7.62x51mm NATO based on these three articles...

Pretty much says it all as far as that goes.

QUOTE (Chandon)
Gel rounds have 10+ years of history supporting their in-game existence.

True. It's also been a fairly ridiculous concept for 10+ years.
Snow_Fox
My usual carry is a .380 and I've had trouble thinking of it as a "light round" so I like the upgrade you gave it. I know it's not a 9mm or .357 but it didn't seems 'light'

for yholdouts look at the Beretta hold out. There is the Bobcat and the Tomcat. The bobcat is a .25 but the bobcat is (I believe) a .32. both hold outs made by the same company and they look the same but the loads are not interchangable.
Chandon
Apparently I lose.

I got a chance to look at my copy of Corporate Download today and apparently only one of the weapon companies selling a gun in SR4 is listed as a megacorporate subsidiary - Cavalier Arms was owned by Novatech.

Does that mean that there's actually a reasonably free market in legal small arms sales? Does Lofwyr really not own either H&K or FN?

If anyone can think of any cannon references that would link any of these arms companies together, that would be awesome. I really want to know what the baseline is before I start making stuff up.
Raygun
The only one I can recall was Lone Star's deal with Ruger to manufacture the Thunderbolt (LS.116). They were obviously two separate corporate entities, and if Ruger were owned by another (at least one that had any substantial hand in the security business) you'd think that would cause problems. Currently, Ruger is the largest firearms manufacturer on the planet (so I've read), and is actually part of a larger corporation based around investment casting production, so it would stand to reason that at least Ruger is still independent. BTW, their main manufacturing facility is in Prescott, AZ (which, IIRC, is in the PCC in SR), so there's a decent-sized "what-if" when it comes to how the NAN would have handled that. They do have another manufacturing plant in Newport, New Hampshire, though.

Other than that, the only thing I can think of is Colt being owned by Ares, but I don't think that was canon.
kzt
If you look at who owns US companies that make weapons, explosives and ordinance they are pretty much all either free-standing entities, part of private corporations or part of corporations that are strictly military/explosives. I haven't found one that is part of a large commercial conglomerate.

The history of Smith & Wesson shows why. Tomkins PLC, as owners of S&W from 89 to 2001 tried really hard to put the company out of business in 2000, selling it in 2001 for about 12% (40% with debt) of what they paid for it 14 years earlier. You can also see this in how Colt Mfg had a series of near death experience in the 90s. (Not that the US gun industry has ever been particularly well managed when the companies were stand alone however - it's just that being owned by a public conglomerate was much worse.)

But I think the unwillingness of major publicly traded companies to be involved in weapons is a fairly recent phenomena. For example, DuPont was the worlds largest explosives manufacturer, but they sold off all their explosives manufacturing by the mid 70s IIRC. GE was deeply involved in the nuclear weapons program. I've been told this was due to the stock market not liking the cyclical nature of the business and due to shareholder pressure to get out of making things that killed people.
Penta
nuclear weapons were a cyclical business? eek.gif
kzt
QUOTE (Penta)
nuclear weapons were a cyclical business? eek.gif

Actually, yes. But I thinking it was more of the "killing people" part. wink.gif
Chandon
The "weapons companies are bad PR" theory doesn't work either. All the megas have a weapons division - it's just that none of them sell products that are in the BBB.

Gah! I guess one solution would be for me to design a bunch of Shiawase Arms (etc) small arms that are slightly better / cheaper than the book weapons to do my vendor lockin plotlines with.
SL James
QUOTE (kzt @ Nov 25 2006, 07:58 PM)
QUOTE (Penta @ Nov 25 2006, 06:54 PM)
nuclear weapons were a cyclical business? eek.gif

Actually, yes. But I thinking it was more of the "killing people" part. wink.gif

Like Wall Street has ever had qualms about companies that kill people.

QUOTE (kzt)
GE was deeply involved in the nuclear weapons program.  I've been told this was due to the stock market not liking the cyclical nature of the business and due to shareholder pressure to get out of making things that killed people.

Plus there's the whole problem of the US not making any more nuclear weapons for the last couple of decades.
crash2029
Hi, I looked at the guns & ammo list that Chandon posted and noticed that he didn't know who manufactured the Uzi. That company is IMI, or Israeli Military Industries.
Just FYI.
wind_in_the_stones
In our game, we buy ammo for a specific gun. We mark the quantity and type down on our character sheets next the gun that it's for. When we find a gun, we take the ammo that comes with it. When we loan a weapon to a teammate, we give the ammo with it.

In other words, we don't share ammo between weapons of similar classes, it's not a big PITA recordkeepingwise, and we don't need a chart.

The only downside is that we can't take advantage of being able to share ammo between weapons that really do use the same size round. But I think it's rare that this would come into play, since we seldom carry more than one gun of the same class.

I'm not trying to say that I think your idea is bad, I'm just offering a suggestion for a slightly simpler way.
WhiskeyMac
The designer's notes in the beginning of the Cannon Companion state that the guns outlined in the book were just the most "popular" ones. You can have a gun company from Evo make Ares Predators that are exactly the same stats wise but simply a different name. Each megacorp has a weapons manufacturing division and so all you have to do is change the name to represent each mega's version of the gun. Maybe add in some independents here to spice things up.
Chandon
So... I got some more time and tried again.

http://www.ferrus.net/~nat/chandon-ammo2.html

I've introduced a couple of plot points for my game world:
- The Advanced Japanese Ammunition Standard (AJAS). The old ammo standards were too lame for a consortium Japanacorps (apparently including Shiawase and Yamaha), so they introduced a couple of caseless cartridges.
- Precision Arms - This small company introduced a couple of new, patented, cartridges with very minor performance advantages. For some reason, there are a lot of countries and security that are now requiring PA cartridge compatibility in their new weapon purchases. A number of weapon manufacturers - including HK and FN - have licensed the technology and are offering PA compatible guns by default.

Any thoughts?
Chandon
So, after introducing the second version of my specific ammo table including Stick & Shock, I'm having a disagreement with some of my players as to whether Stick & Shock is realistic at all.

Given that shock-on-impact shotgun shells exist today (there was a post here a month or so ago), I think that the limits on Stick & Shock in my ammo table (last post) are perfectly reasonable... Thoughts? Anyone? Raygun?

[ edit ] And I hit the page fold. Here's the link to my current ammo table:
http://www.ferrus.net/~nat/chandon-ammo2.html [ /edit ]
Austere Emancipator
Since you're not really constricting yourself to what's going on with the canon SR4 firearms, might be a good idea to make the Mossber AM-CMDT capable of firing slugs as well -- can't think why it wouldn't be able to. Since "slug" with shotguns refers to singular solid projectiles, the "PA Slug" caliber name could use a change if it's able to fire shot as well. The Precision Arms T-1 probably doesn't deserve a -1 Armor Piercing ability.

Neither the .380 nor the .45 Auto will be particularly hard to find in Europe, because handguns in those calibers have been around in large numbers for a really, really long time. The 9mm PA should be dirt cheap around the world, having been by far the most common handgun and SMG caliber for a long time. If .300 Winchester Magnum is double standard cost, then so should .480 Ruger be. .460 Weatherby could easily be 4x standard cost.

The main limiting factor for Stick & Shock ammo, like Explosive ammunition, would be the size of the projectile fired. If the .40 Firepower can make use of that technology, then so could the .45 Auto. 12 gauge shotguns certainly should be able to -- that's the type of small arm for which the ammunition makes by far the most sense. If you think the .30-06 can fire such ammunition, it should definitely be available for the 7.62mm NATO (+ 7.4mm PA), and preferably the .300 Winchester Magnum as well, because both are used to fire bullets in the same range of masses, and see by far more use in anti-personnel applications where ammunition with the abilities of the Stick & Shock rounds might be preferable.

Except for the 2 shotgun calibers, every caliber in the Rifle Ammo table will be hugely better at penetrating armor than anything in the Pistol Ammo list, so if the "Armor Piercing" ammo type is basically a stand-in for more-or-less regular ammunition that simply has armor piercing ability based on the combination of projectile velocity, mass and diameter inherent to certain calibers, all of those calibers should probably replace "Regular" with "Armor Piercing". At any rate, Armor Piercing is a more likely ammo type for 12 gauge shotguns than APDS -- such a round will have a discarding sabot and will technically be "APDS", but the armor penetrating ability will be more limited than that of dedicated armor piercing ammunition for high velocity rifles. If 5mm and 7.4 PA can fire APDS, the 5.56x45mm and 7.62x51mm NATO definitely can too. Flechette and gel seem very unlikely ammunition types for a rifle caliber firing very light projectiles at high velocities, like the Ares 5mm HVC.

In other words, just a few minor tweaks and it's looking good. smile.gif
Mercurialrogue
IMHO given that somethings in the SR universe are completely inconceivable, I wouldn't hesitate to put gel rounds in for SMGs and heavy pistols if its that important for flavor.

But then again I'm a big proponent of flavor and style over the realistic factor. I take that everyone (here) is to a certain extent, considering we play a game with magic and Meta-humans in it.
Chandon
Austere Emancipator -

Excellent post. Thanks. Let's see if I can answer some of those questions...

QUOTE
Since you're not really constricting yourself to what's going on with the canon SR4 firearms, might be a good idea to make the Mossberg AM-CMDT capable of firing slugs as well


I actually considered that for a while, but there's a big advantage to not messing with the stats on the canon weapons. I'm sure they'll release some automatic shotguns that make more sense in Arsenal. Also, as a game master, I don't really mind every burst from that thing costing 300¥.

QUOTE
Since "slug" with shotguns refers to singular solid projectiles, the "PA Slug" caliber name could use a change if it's able to fire shot as well.


Yes. Currently it doesn't include shot rounds, but I might want to add that later. I was looking for a brand name for the cartridge that didn't have "gauge" in it - since that's a pretty strange non-metric measurement for military grade ammo. If you can come up with something better I'd be happy to use it.

Ammo pricing - I generally agree. I've made some of those changes. I don't quite see the 9mm PA overtaking the 9mm Auto yet (thwarted by the short weapons list again).

You're right that putting Stick & Shock only in the Hunting Rifle cartridge is a little weird. I'm mostly trying to avoid it being in automatic weapons, because that seems less cool. I guess I'll put Stick & Shock in .300 Winchester Magnum as well.

You're right that there is some weirdness in the way I've distributed "Armor Piercing". I agree that from a realism standpoint rifle cartridges should probably be Armor Piercing by default. On the other hand, I think I'm going to wait to actually remove standard ammo from the lists - it gives me more flexibility as a GM to not kill my players.

For shotguns, I like the price / availability properties of APDS for the armor piercing round. I guess I could price up Armor Piercing for shotguns, but that would seem pretty sucky.

One of the things that I've won with this system is a lack of standardization. Having APDS assault rifle ammo be a Precision Arms thing leaves open the ability to have an in game plot explaining why...
Austere Emancipator
Yeah, sorry, mixed 9mm PA with 9x19mm Parabellum(/Luger, what you call 9mm Auto) for a while.

QUOTE (Chandon)
Having APDS assault rifle ammo be a Precision Arms thing leaves open the ability to have an in game plot explaining why...

M993 and M995 are all used up and nobody ever made any new ones since the 00's?
Chandon
That sort of AV Armor Piercing round really makes me want to introduce some sort of "-1 DV / -6 AP" round. I also sort of want to wait to see what shows up for vehicle armor / anti vehicle ammo in Arsenal. Or I could introduce a "-1 / -4" round...

I'm trying really hard to preserve some unique advantages for different ammo types while not introducing any significant power creep through adding new ammo types.

I guess I could say that for 5.56 and 7.62, "Normal" ammo represents the norm, and "Armor Piercing" represents light AP rounds - but that still doesn't cover anti-vehicle armor piercing rounds well.
cx2
Regarding vendor lock in:
No reason why there couldn't be someone somewhere making "compatible" rounds, legally or otherwise. It could also be fun for a GM to decide just how compatible or not they are.

If it is legally made it would probably be like you can get compatible cartridges for printers, the manufacturers won't give you the time of day if you say you used them and had problems. If not legal then there are all sorts of options wink.gif
Chandon
cx2 -

Absolutely. That's exactly the sort of game world flavor I'm trying to enable. Having to resort to "counterfeit" ammo due to supply issues in the field is an awesome story element that fits perfectly with the genre.
cx2
*shrug* I'm not entirely sure why that would need a whole new ammo system. Just go by the general rule of "ammo bought for one gun stays with taht gun", and run a small subplot of your ammo fails because you were shortchanged by your fixer or other contact. Or maybe allow players to buy ammo on the cheap, but have the same effect.
Chandon
Because "I'd like to buy some 9mm PA" sounds cooler than "I'd like to buy some bullets for my HK MP5 TX", and actually figuring out what the names of the ammo that the different guns fire beforehand makes the ammo terms a known quantity that I can use as a plot element (more easily and coherently).

For example: Imagine that I have a player with a Walter MA-2100 sniper rifle who's going on a run in Vladivostok. With this writeup beforehand, saying "Your local fixer can't find any APDS ammo in .300 Winchester Magnum - that cartridge isn't common around here" makes sense - and the player has the clean response of "Can you get me a sniper rifle that uses some ammo that's common locally?" whereas without that pre-annouced flavor difference I can still do the same thing but it's less cool - because there's a rule in the book that says all sniper rifles use the same ammo.
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