Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: flesh form & ally spirit
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Zak
Disclaimer: i am aware that the ally rules are pretty broken, but that shouldnt be the point here.

I was talking with a co-worker the other day if it would be possible to summon an ally into a living metahuman being and what the resulting powers of that would be.


lets assume that you gain a flesh form as a result: would this give your ally the power of masking, would your ally gain all the skills of the victim? would you have to pay with karma for those 'auto' powers ? or is it not possible at all and only an option for free spirits?

(if there already has been a discussion about this, please let me know where to find it, i have picked Incompetence: Search during player creation)
FrankTrollman
QUOTE

lets assume that you gain a flesh form as a result: would this give your ally the power of masking, would your ally gain all the skills of the victim?


Yes.

QUOTE
would you have to pay with karma for those 'auto' powers ?


Nope. Although the spirit would be stuck in one place, no longer able to metaplanar shortcut to your location.

-Frank
Jaid
and actually, the ally spirit rules aren't really broken. other than the non-increasing costs for higher force, that is.

other than that, allies are bloody expensive...
Mikado
On a similar note, if the host body has cyber/bio (reduced essence) does the spirit occupying it have a lower magic?
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (Mikado)
On a similar note, if the host body has cyber/bio (reduced essence) does the spirit occupying it have a lower magic?

No. Although if you added Cyberware later, the spirit's Magic would drop.

-Frank
Big D
Which of course, means that folks with access to delta, lots of cash, and mages with no scruples *cough* Azzies *cough* can have some pretty nasty, completely loyal, cyberzombies to throw at you.

BTW, does this require a possession tradition to do, or can anybody drop an ally into a meta?
Fortune
I think only Ally Spirits of magicians from a Possession Tradition can have access to the Power necessary.
FrankTrollman
Anybody* can drop an ally into a metahuman. The techniques of inhabitation are available to every Insect Shaman, and any magician with the Ally metamagic.

And yes, using the rules for Inhabitation out of Street Magic you can duplicate the effects of cyberzombies. It's almost like...

*: In this case "anybody" is a restricted set of powerful initiates with a pile of karma and Insect shamans.

-Frank
Fortune
I stand corrected. smile.gif
Big D
We don't need no steeenkeeen IMU.

That should make CZs a lot more common among top-flight black ops units, especially after the AAAs have had a couple of decades to work some of the bugs out of the system.

And best of all, if somebody drops a tacnuke on one, you can drop it in another body in a month.

The owning mage had better be cranial bombed, brainwashed, and have ritual samples taken to keep it friendly, though.
toturi
Now for the 6 million nuyen.gif question: Does an ally spirit summoned by an insect shaman not suffer from evanescence and get access to all those funky Insect powers? Can an Insect shaman go toxic? Can Insect spirits go toxic? Can a toxic shaman summon toxic Insect spirits? biggrin.gif
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (toturi)
Now for the 6 million nuyen.gif question: Does an ally spirit summoned by an insect shaman not suffer from evanescence and get access to all those funky Insect powers?

Unfortunately, the answer is "yes". That was the primary argument for making all the special insect spirit modifications into Mentor Spirit Modifiers of the insect totems rather than arbitrary rules. Unfortunately, the arbitrary writeups happened instead, and now Insect Magicians can learn Metamorphosis and Ally and have a Queen and an Ally. And the Ally will end up being some funky thing that cherry picks the most hilarious powers off the Insect list with none of the weaknesses.

Sigh.

QUOTE
Can an Insect shaman go toxic? Can Insect spirits go toxic? Can a toxic shaman summon toxic Insect spirits? biggrin.gif


No. But a Toxic magician can banish an insect spirit, take control of it with summoning, and then use the fucking "Corruption" metamagic to.... uh... do.... something.

This is why I wanted the Threats Chapter to be more grounded in templates and rubrics rather than a series of arbitrary new spirit types. There aren't any rules for what happens when many of the non-standard spirit interactions occur.

If a follower of Mutation takes control of a Water Elemental and corrupts it... what? There isn't even a complete set of five sample spirits for the Mutation branch of Toxic magicians to have, let alone a conversion template for non-tradition spirits that get corrupted. Often you'll end up having to make up a whole new spirit type off the top of your head in the middle of combat.

/vent
/rant

-Frank
toturi
So a toxic shaman can only be derived from a "normal" mage and an Insect shaman is "protected" from "toxicity".

I do not really mind that there isn't a toxic Water spirit specific to Mutation. What I do mind is that there aren't a full set(10) of toxic spirits. I mean you could say that in terms of game mechanics, there isn't a difference between a toxic Water spirit summoned by Pestilent Rat and Mutation. But having less than 10 toxic sample spirits(that's including the ones in the "templates"), you don't have any canon interpretation of a toxic task spirit.

QUOTE
And the Ally will end up being some funky thing that cherry picks the most hilarious powers off the Insect list with none of the weaknesses.


All of their strengths, none of their weaknesses...
FrankTrollman
QUOTE
So a toxic shaman can only be derived from a "normal" mage and an Insect shaman is "protected" from "toxicity".


Not exactly, but pretty much. A toxic magician gets their power from the dark and poisoned parts of the Earth. An Insect magician doesn't get power from the Earth at all. Klandathu isn't the Earth, it's not even similar. A toxic magician gets more powerful in areas where the mana has been poisoned by tears in the Earth or pools of poison heaped in thee waters. These sites have the mana of Earth turned against itself in a caustic miasma of hopeless despair. An insect magician's power sites are locations that have been spiritually attuned to the Hive. These sites are alien, incomprehensible to Earth mages - as perplexing as they are terrifying.

So where would a toxic insect mage get their power? A site that had been attuned to poisoned Klandathu? How would we even be able to tell the difference?

+1 and -1 are easy to recognize as quantities and opposites. But +Ikthitkik and -Ikthitkik share more in common than they have differences to the human eyes that are judging them.

In short, while Toxic Insect Magicians may well exist, we don't have enough paradigm in common with either to tell them apart. Sometimes insect hives and nests go after each other in a big way. Some insect magicians work for Firewatch. Some will die before they bend knee to Damien Knight. For all we know, humanity may be siding with the Toxic side of the insect tradition.

There are very major wars among the insects. Ares has chosen a side, but even they don't know how many sides there are.

QUOTE
All of their strengths, none of their weaknesses...


That quote only works if you have a male mantis spirit to fill in for your ally. He could have a wicked awesome sword and a badass motorcycle.

-Frank
toturi
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
There are very major wars among the insects. Ares has chosen a side, but even they don't know how many sides there are.

You do not need to be toxic to go to war.

QUOTE
Klandathu isn't the Earth, it's not even similar.


Everyone fights, no one quits...

Maybe I'd run the SST RPG using the SR4 rules set nyahnyah.gif.
hyzmarca
Three Quick Questions:

If a magician Summons an Inhabiting Ally and has it Inhabit himself, can he still add his binding dice to influence the merge toward a flesh form or is he prevented from doing so by the complete obliteration of his soul?

What happens if an Insect Shaman Invokes a bug? There aren't any rules for Great Form Insects.


Would Invoking or Blood Invoking during the Ally binding ritual be a complete perversion of that particular rules loophole? (Invoking is done during the binding test and Allies require a binding test, thus allowing one to argue in favor of Invoking Allies by the RAW.) I ask because the Aztlan sourcebook explicitly states (In the rules section, not the flavor section) that Blood Allies do exist; but, previous ally spirit rules made it impossible to create them without a houserule (of course, since it was impossible for a PC to know Sacrificing without a houserule this wasn't much of a problem).
PlatonicPimp
Also, Are you houseruling the toxic and insect spirits to work on the template you mentioned in your home game? If so, can you post those house rules here?

And did you ever find out if you can share your rejected proposals on dumpshock?
toturi
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
Would Invoking or Blood Invoking during the Ally binding ritual be a complete perversion of that particular rules loophole? (Invoking is done during the binding test and Allies require a binding test, thus allowing one to argue in favor of Invoking Allies by the RAW.) I ask because the Aztlan sourcebook explicitly states (In the rules section, not the flavor section) that Blood Allies do exist; but, previous ally spirit rules made it impossible to create them without a houserule (of course, since it was impossible for a PC to know Sacrificing without a houserule this wasn't much of a problem).

Still not much of a problem unless you ignore the "recommendations" in SM.
FrankTrollman
QUOTE
If a magician Summons an Inhabiting Ally and has it Inhabit himself, can he still add his binding dice to influence the merge toward a flesh form or is he prevented from doing so by the complete obliteration of his soul?


The important thing is that performing the ritual requires you to do things to the vessel. You can't be the proposed inhabitation vessel and complete the ritual - attempting to be both the subject and object of that sentence automatically fails. You can grab some other magician and slap your spirit into them. Then you can get into philosophical discussions about identity.

QUOTE
What happens if an Insect Shaman Invokes a bug? There aren't any rules for Great Form Insects.


Sigh. Don't I know it.

My proposal was to start the five spirits of the Insect Spirit as:

Task (Worker)
Guardian (Soldier)
Guidance (Nymph)
Beast (Caretaker)
Air (Scout)

And yes, I'm aware that the powers and stats and powers got moved around even more by the Threats chapter author in order to make them "feel more unique" - but that's pretty much where they came from. So when looked at in that respect, an Invoked Insect Spirit should get:

Caretaker: Paralyzing Howl
Nymph: Astral Gateway (we know where that goes!)
Scout: Storm*
Soldier: Endowment
Worker: Endowment

*: The scout was heavily influenced by the spirit of man by the time it was completed, if you wanted to substitute Compulsion, I wouldn't fault you at all.

QUOTE
Would Invoking or Blood Invoking during the Ally binding ritual be a complete perversion of that particular rules loophole?


I don't really have a problem with Invoking Allies. That's why I wanted them to be a specific spirit type with extra powers rather than a unique spirit type with no stat line. Every time you make a unique spirit type, you confuse the issue as far as Invoking goes.

As for Blood Invoking - any use of it is a perversion of that rules loophole. Adding to Force is something I cannot discuss in detail without swearing. If you made it something reasonable (like using the standard Essence Drain temporary boost rules from the Basic Book combined with the normal Essence Loss rules), then I wouldn't have a problem with that either. But as is, Evanescence doesn't even affect Blood Spirits, because they can take a complex action to Materialize at any time and simply choose not to lose Force. There's so much wrong with Blood Invoking as written that I'm going to change the subject.

QUOTE
Also, Are you houseruling the toxic and insect spirits to work on the template you mentioned in your home game?


Yeah.

QUOTE
If so, can you post those house rules here?


Sure, I'll write them up and post them.

QUOTE

And did you ever find out if you can share your rejected proposals on dumpshock?


Yeah. What did people want me to post? I don't even remember.

-Frank
Fortune
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
What did people want me to post?

Everything! smile.gif
PlatonicPimp
Yeah, pretty much all of it. You speak so forcefully about how they changed what you wanted to see, and I've been impressed with a lot of your other work. I'd like to compare what you proposed to what is in the book. Everywhere. Seeing as how I'm rewriting all of them myself. I need a second opinion.
ChicagosFinest
Well the things he talks about makes since! There are a lot of things in shadowrun that dont have a relationship or answers. I'm glad at least someone is thinking of them.
Big D
Next stupid question...

A corp "acquires" a TM (brainwashed, drugged, or an iced veggie), slaps lots of chrome on them (driving down resonance, but not to 0), and then drops an ally in it.

Assuming they can swing the roll to flesh or hybrid (whichever is better), what happens?
Does the spirit retain full TM powers?
Does it gain resonance at Force level or just at whatever level the TM last had (which would be a good reason to drop the chrome in this case)?
Are its skills boosted any at all by the ally?
If the mage has Task spirits, can they select technical TM skills (e.g., TM cybercombat)--if so, I assume you use the higher of the ally's and the vessel's skills rather than adding them together?
What happens to mental attributes? I'm not totally clear on those.
Synner
While it is indeed unclear the intent of the developers was that during Inhabitation the vessel's Mental and Special attributes also be subsumed by the spirit's in the same manner as Possession.
Fortune
If a Spirit Possesses or Inhabits someone with a Cerebral Booster, would the Bioware boost the Spirit's Logic after it had subsumed its victim's Mental Attributes?
Big D
Gotcha--so a TM inhabited by an ally would lose all resonance, period.

Hmmm. Would a flesh form mage still maintain tradition/mentor/etc., or would those be replaced by the spirit's form of magic, as well, with only the skill ratings (assuming the spirit doesn't have higher ranks already) remaining?
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (Big D)
Gotcha--so a TM inhabited by an ally would lose all resonance, period.


Yes.

QUOTE
Hmmm.  Would a flesh form mage still maintain tradition/mentor/etc., or would those be replaced by the spirit's form of magic, as well, with only the skill ratings (assuming the spirit doesn't have higher ranks already) remaining?


The new tradition would take over. "Magician" is a quality that you can have or not have, but your tradition isn't. Spirits cannot inherit the tradition of some other character under any circumstances.

-Frank
Big D
Next up... is there any way *other* than inhabiting a living vessel to give an ally Matrix access--like giving a humanoid ally gloves and goggles, or building a plasteel homy with a built-in commlink and cybereyes?

For that matter, can an ally use any chrome electronics (as opposed to spurs, etc.), DNI or not, that weren't paid for with essence prior to the spirit's inhabitation?


hyzmarca
It seems to me that the vessel's brain becomes the spirit's brain when they merge. However, I'd say that having an Ally install cyberware is terribly stupid. The penalities that spirits suffer from essence loss far outwiegh the benefits of 'ware.
Mikado
QUOTE
Next up... is there any way *other* than inhabiting a living vessel to give an ally Matrix access--like giving a humanoid ally gloves and goggles, or building a plasteel homy with a built-in commlink and cybereyes?


IIRC: An individual (metahuman, critter, spirit) can not use AR or VR while astrally perceiving. So, I don't know how a naturally dual-natured creature could bypass this limitation. Even for inhabiting spirits in hybrid or flesh form.
Ofcourse... I could be wrong.

QUOTE
For that matter, can an ally use any chrome electronics (as opposed to spurs, etc.), DNI or not, that weren't paid for with essence prior to the spirit's inhabitation?


Ah, I'm not sure what you mean by this. By its very nature installing cyber/bio-ware into a metahuman always disrupts the holistic well-being of the body and spirit. How would you install cyber without reducing essence.
Big D
QUOTE
How would you install cyber without reducing essence.

See Frank's post at the beginning of the thread.

If you add chrome *before* inhabitation, it becomes a freebie after inhabitation--it doesn't affect the spirit's magic. Ally cyberzombies have the old v1.0 model licked to Denver and back.

I think Frank made a mention a few weeks ago about an example of an inhabited ally using Task powers as a munchkin hacker. I'm just looking for alternatives that don't involve the deliberate destruction--that is, murder--of a soul. smile.gif
FrankTrollman
QUOTE
I think Frank made a mention a few weeks ago about an example of an inhabited ally using Task powers as a munchkin hacker. I'm just looking for alternatives that don't involve the deliberate destruction--that is, murder--of a soul.


Well... souls don't necessarily exist, so really you're just merging the memories and identity of a person with that of a spirit. While you are giving them new goals, new skills, and new ideas, this is not structurally different from putting someone through any other life changing ordeal. A person who has gone through a spirit merging is not the same as they were before hand, but if they read a book they won't be the same either. Hell, even if you don't put a spirit in their body they'll be different after a day or two.

No matter what happens, your identity tomorrow will not be the same as your identity today, and being hybridized with an ant spirit is merely one of many contingent possibilities. So long as your memories survive, you share as much continuity with your past as with any other possible event, and more than many. The inhabitation process is risky, and has the very real chance of losing memories and form, but a flesh form is no different than a religious convert.

/Bug Advocate

Anyway, what did you want? An ally that made one or more of your teammates obsolete? Which ones?

-Frank
Big D
QUOTE
Anyway, what did you want? An ally that made one or more of your teammates obsolete? Which ones?


Nah, just playing with the limits on design rules. After all, corps and threats are far more likely than runners to be able to throw down the hundreds of karma needed for the nastier munchkin allies. Truly loyal cyberzombies with hardened armor, good magic, and even possibly hacking skills just sound like something you don't want to cross. Plus, even if you kill them, the spirit can be put in a new body with its full memories of facing you.

So, is the plasteel hacker out? Can chrome only be used by living vessels that paid essence for it?
Mikado
QUOTE
QUOTE
How would you install cyber without reducing essence.


See Frank's post at the beginning of the thread.

If you add chrome *before* inhabitation, it becomes a freebie after inhabitation--it doesn't affect the spirit's magic. Ally cyberzombies have the old v1.0 model licked to Denver and back.


I understand that. I'm fine with that.
That is not what he asked. (or atleast, that is not what I understood from his question)

He asked:
QUOTE
For that matter, can an ally use any chrome electronics (as opposed to spurs, etc.), DNI or not, that weren't paid for with essence prior to the spirit's inhabitation?


I dont mean to sound like a dick but what I took from that is he wanted to install cyber without paying essense for it and wanted to know if a spirit could use it like that.
FrankTrollman
QUOTE
I dont mean to sound like a dick but what I took from that is he wanted to install cyber without paying essense for it and wanted to know if a spirit could use it like that.


The answer is: depends upon what it is.

When the spirit inhabits the body, it inhabits the body as is, and gains the abilities and physical form of the body as it stands when the inhabitation ritual is complete - not some idealized form of the body as it would be if not for the interference of man. However, the spirit's mental and special attributes override those of the host regardless of what they were or how they got that way.

So if you install bone lacing into the host before the procedure, you'll reduce the host's Essence (which will be replaced by the spirit's anyway), and add to the damage resistance tests (which the spirit can very much use). That makes bone lacing a very nice addition to a potential host. On the other end of the scale, Cerebral Boosters cost Essence (which will be overwritten) and add to Logic (which will also be overwritten), so there's no particular purpose served in getting that modification done pre-inhabitation.

A Flesh Form spirit can directly interact with the Matrix if its host could, while a materialized or possessed spirit never can even if it has Realistic Form. So if you want a DNI, you'll want it in there first and then have the Essence cost overwritten by the spirit's Force (you're heartbroken I'm sure).

But if you put your spirit into a Steel Lynx with comm upgrades it can access the series of tubes that is the internets. If you had access to Task Spirits you could make a fairly formiddable Haxxor out of the deal. That wouldn't involve taking a human being out of the picture, if for some reason you care about such things.

-Frank
ChicagosFinest
So Spirtis CAN posses drones?
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (ChicagosFinest)
So Spirtis CAN posses drones?

Drones are Object Resistance 4+, but just like any object they can be made into vessels.

-Frank
Big D
QUOTE
But if you put your spirit into a Steel Lynx with comm upgrades it can access the series of tubes that is the internets. If you had access to Task Spirits you could make a fairly formiddable Haxxor out of the deal. That wouldn't involve taking a human being out of the picture, if for some reason you care about such things.


Just as importantly, it means that you *can* have your chromed-out plasteel homunculus hacker/sam ally (named Ahnuld) with 8 armor+2F hardened armor (the dice stack, right?), and, say, built-in gyromounts on the arms, full multi-spectral sensor array *plus* astral perception, 2F dice on spells, the best commlink you can acquire, etc. Sure, it'd be expensive and heavy if you used a munckin-level Force, but...
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Mikado)

He asked:
QUOTE
For that matter, can an ally use any chrome electronics (as opposed to spurs, etc.), DNI or not, that weren't paid for with essence prior to the spirit's inhabitation?


I dont mean to sound like a dick but what I took from that is he wanted to install cyber without paying essense for it and wanted to know if a spirit could use it like that.

You see, I read that question as "Can you install DNI equipment after the Spirit has inhabited the body.
FrankTrollman
QUOTE
(the dice stack, right?),


Dice stack. Hardened Armor damage thresholds don't. That is, if you have 8 points of hardened armor from one source and 8 points of hardened armor from another source, an incoming attack has its DV compared to the first set of hardened armor and then compared to the second, which means that it isn't important that the second set of armor is hardened.

Still, in that example while you wouldn't bounce a DV 16 (or even DV 9) attack, you would get 16 dice of damage resistance out of the deal, which is pretty sweet.

It's the same thing that happens when you hide in the Solid Snake Box.

-Frank
Big D
Yeah, very sweet.

I can see plasteel/chrome allies in the F4-6 range being plenty good as it is; even if you drop the hacker skills and just focus on combat, a 20/20 armor (12HA) android tank with Concealment/Movement/Search/Guard/Elemental Attack, a half dozen each spells (mostly detects and mind controls) and skills (mostly weapons), and a punch that would kill most non-trolls could be had for under 100 karma--a lot for a runner, but maybe not for a corp that has some way of acquiring karma (or just a really dedicated wagemage). At a cost of $18K for the body/bind, it'd be cheap enough to add some really nice chrome prior to inhabitation.

That would be rather unpleasant to run into.

Just how common *are* corp allies?
Fortune
QUOTE (Big D @ Nov 30 2006, 09:43 AM)
Just how common *are* corp allies?

That would probably depend on the Corp. Aztechnology, Wuxing and S.K. would be more likely to have them than say Renraku or NeoNET, but even then it wouldn't be an everyday encounter.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012