So I have a question concerning the placement of Wards.

Let's say Dumpster Danny the Rat Shaman has his Force 5 Magical Lodge set up in the dining area of the condemned restaurant in which he is currently squatting. This Lodge acts as a Force 5 Dual Natured Barrier. He would like to also set up a Force 8 Ward (let's say he wants a Polarized Ward ) using the dimentions of the entire former restaurant itself, basically surrounding the Lodge's Barrier, but not using any of the same walls as anchors.

Can he do this?

Reading through the rules, I think the answer would be "no, unless you houserule it". The walls of the ward are the functional heart of the structure, but I believe the "ward" includes the portion of astral real estate contained inside the walls. Which would explain the prohibition against both layering and overlapping (SM, p. 124). I think that's also probably be why the examples given in the Core and Street Magic mention setting them up as a gauntlet - a series of smaller wards that abut each other from the outside and together form the shape you want, not nested like Russian dolls. There's a bit more from the horse's mouth here. Though I suppose it's not an "official" official ruling, so take it as you will.

Technically it says you can't layer wards. A lodge isn't a ward, it's another type of astral barrier. As the ward rules that appeared in print is SM are not exactly clearly and concisely saying what the writer intended I'm not sure what the intent was for this situation.

Odd, I recall reading that you couldn't make contact between wards as the rule - as in you can't overlap boundary lines, but if one of the said wards/barriers stays completely within or outside without touching, it was legal.

So you couldn't take two astral barriar walls and cross them ( + ) but (if you really want to drain the power from yourself) You could make 4 separate walls that don't connect at the center to make the shape ( + ).

But I could have read wrong..guess it's time to look up again.

I just found the quote Fortune mentioned earlier, To quote it fully, it says:

Teh best way to think of a Ward is not as a wall, but as a Gelatinous Cube, strangely enough.

Can't put a Cube inside a Cube, can't put a Ward inside a Ward. They'll "Jam" each other and make the weaker one collapse.

You can put 'em adjacent, as long as they don't touch.

For example, you have an underground research area and you want one section *really* secure, so, you make a 60 meter long hallway to teh big storage vault. The non-hallway parts are Mother Earth, so, no mage is gonna flit through there (At least easily) ... The Hallway, meanwhile, has three wards, one after another, each protecting 20 meters of teh hall. Once the first 20 meter thick cube is overcome, BONK! ... you hit the second. If you can cut through it ... BONK! Third one! Arg!

That should help lots.

If you cannot put a ward within another ward, then do it this way:

Create 6 1m-thick warded spaces corresponding to the sides of the space you want to ward. You can put whatever you wish within these 6 spaces - maybe some Awakened plants. Then ward the interior space.

See, everyone is using the word 'Ward'. The problem is that a Magical Lodge is not a Ward. It is considered a Barrier. I can't recall anything in the rules that specifically prohibits a Barrier from being erected within the confines of a Ward.

Well, at least I'm not as senile as I thought.

So then why is everyone so dead sure that this cannot be done?

The simplest answer would be that it's to insure some stability is presuming 'anything' that involves creating magical walls, be it 'barrier', ward, mana lodge, etc are treated the same As far as interacting goes. Can you have two Lodges cross eachother? If someone is holding some sort of barrier in the path you want for your ward, will you be unable to create it until they move, or will you still manage despite if it's only temporary?

I was always under the impression the barrier from a lodge/circle/whatever is basically a built in feature of creating a domain for yourself - you essentially built the ward while making the rest of it. A mana/phys barrier is essentially a ward without the permanent attributes required and is supplied with energy from yourself.

I'm not sure where we keep getting the gelatinous cube bit from - I haven't been yelled out for saying hollow yet! Usually I get someone's attention that's direct enough to try and cut me up for things like that (Not that Kzt did that, he just reminded me of it).

I would keep wards and barriers seperate.
You can have barriers inside of a ward.

Otherwise you start getting into the sticky situation where some spells work and some don't (try and cast mana or physical barrier inside a warded area). Too much of a headache to do it any other way.

So, my 2 cents worth, you can have a lodge inside of a warded area.

I didn't find it, but I haven't had the time to do a fully thorough look through both books....but where are these stated differences? ^-^;

it should be fairly obvious that there are fairly significant differences between the two, mechanically speaking. do you really need a specific place where it says they are different? i mean, i figure just the fact that they work in different ways should say something.

anyways, i can't really say it would bother me to have someone put a lodge inside a ward, or vice versa. frankly, the lodge is gonna be a better barrier anyways most likely, and lasts indefinitely.