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Konsaki
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)
QUOTE (dog_xinu @ Dec 15 2006, 09:26 PM)
One of the sammie types in my current group has the following to say ... "I have strict ethics, but no morales..." and has proven that more than once.

Dang it, I always get those confused. smile.gif

"I will never kill a person with my own two hands, thats why I use a gun. I didn't kill anyone, the bullet ripping through their flesh did."

"Everyone I've ever met has died of natural causes... a hole through your neck will naturally kill you."
nezumi
I'm very curious what your plans are then. Like I said, all I can imagine is "get in, get object, get out", but you say getting in isn't one of the steps, so I'm even more curious what you deem appropriate to include in a plan.
mmu1
QUOTE (nezumi @ Dec 16 2006, 12:24 PM)
I'm very curious what your plans are then.  Like I said, all I can imagine is "get in, get object, get out", but you say getting in isn't one of the steps, so I'm even more curious what you deem appropriate to include in a plan.

Fine, here's an example (from an actual run we did)

1. Infiltrate the high-profile vacation resort our target's staying at by coming in off the beach in snorkling gear.

2. Break into the staff locker room and grab some uniforms.

3. Enter the target's room and raid his computer.

4. Leave the way we entered.

Did it take some time to figure out how we were going to get to the beach? Yeah, it did, but we put that together risk-free and without time constraints before getting into the water. It's only the parts that you have to take care of under time constraints, that need to work the first time, and that the following steps hinge on that need to be kept as simple as possible.

Though frankly, a lot of time the jobs we get are against targets secure enough (or on a short enough timeframe) that they necessite a different kind of approach:

1. Scout the target as best as we can.
2. Equip ourselves to cover what we know as well as any likely contingencies
3. Insert the infiltration or assault team and roll with it.

It's important to be able to tell when you're better off just improvising past a certain point, rather than spending time and effort planning unrealistic goals. (just as it's important to be able to recognize the point when you're better off opening fire and getting things over with)

Or, you know, you could just stop being so literal minded and take that as the comment on the importance of keeping your plans as simple as possible it was intended to be... And then there's always rule/guideline #7...
NightmareX
QUOTE (Butterblume)
If memory serves, Hässlich was shoot out of the sky by the original streetsam™ with a Vindicator Minigun.

(hah, just avoided putting spoiler tags on it, alltough that is basically, well, ancient history nyahnyah.gif).

My bad - like you said, it's been a while wink.gif
wargear
Our team, Colonel Harland's Eleven, had a few rules they ran by.

1. Always complete the contract. Keep to the letter of the contract but go for 110% if it won't endanger completion of the contract.

2. Loyalty to the team is mandatory. Retirement is allowed, even encouraged. Betrayal is fatal.

3. Non-lethal armaments invite a lesser response from the majority of Law Enforcement and Security operations.

4. Operational planning dictates the level of collateral damage allowed.

5. If any part of the run goes to hell, there will be no survivors to tarnish the reputation of Colonel Harland's Eleven.


The flipside of that team called themselves the Black Angels.

1. Personal survival and security of identity are paramount; do not die, do not be identified.

2. The Black Angels do not exist. Do nothing to confirm their existence. Likewise do not deny their existence.

3. APDS and shaped charges have universal applications. The MGL-6 is a perfectly good sidearm.

4. Collateral damage and massive property damage are acceptable as long as the mission is accomplished.

5. If the run goes to hell, the mission is obviously going according to plan...good job.


It worked for us, and was a lot of fun. Having the quiet, tense stealth missions interspersed with the extremely loud and violent BA missions made for a very enjoyable campaign.
wargear
On another note.

If your planning session lasts for more than one actual game session, you are definately overplanning.

If it lasts for three sessions, you need to get the guy who usually makes the plans to stop GMing and come back to playing.
Ed Simons
Here's mine from a previous thread.

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...opic=6898&st=62
Wounded Ronin
I can't believe that nobody has said, "Always kill all children, especially if they're related to your target."

Everbody knows that the children WILL grow up to be ultimate cybered death machines for the purpose of avenging their parents. They'll come after you when you're all wizened and weak and can't protect yourself.
Trax
The chances of that happening are slim. By that time you're most likely dead.
nezumi
Or the campaign is over.
wargear
Be careful of killing the children, they might have a dread zen-master of sword-fu uncle or grandfather who will come after you now.
Alternately their parents friends will come after you...
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (wargear)
Be careful of killing the children, they might have a dread zen-master of sword-fu uncle or grandfather who will come after you now.
Alternately their parents friends will come after you...

Granted, that's what happened in "Revenge of the Ninja" with Sho Kosugi, but I maintain that the more common cinematic shtick is to have the kids grow up and come back to take their fell revenge. In other words, you're more likely to be killed by the adult children than you are by the crotchety elderly relative even though they're both still possibilities.
Kagetenshi
Never leave the kids alive. They might become Batman.

~J
nezumi
QUOTE (wargear)
Be careful of killing the children, they might have a dread zen-master of sword-fu uncle or grandfather who will come after you now.
Alternately their parents friends will come after you...

Clearly the only solution is to kill everyone.
Kesslan
QUOTE (NightmareX)
QUOTE (Kesslan @ Dec 16 2006, 03:27 AM)
Bah if your worried about doing a run in a dragons back yard you'll never get anything done. I'm pretty sure Seattle is still in at least one dragons back yard. There's that Damien guy or what ever. I'm trying to rmemeber what bloody book he was in though. Dragon type that apparently likes to do nothing but party all the time. I'm pretty sure he's based out of Seattle though.

If you mean Haesslich (sp?), the western the ran security for United Oil back in 1st edition - he's dead. Somebody apparently lobbed a missile his way and he forgot to duck. He wasn't a great anyway though.

Nope, it's definately not a 1st ed Dragon, but one introduced in 3rd ed. I've never played 1st or 2nd ed. I'll have to dig around, he's in one of the 3rd ed books but I cant for the life of me recall which one atm. I belive it's the Dragons of the sixthworld, but I'm not sure. I'll check it when I get home in the morning.

There's this little short story about how this runner ran into him while clubbing one night and got invited back to his place, then challenged to climb up the wall of his house to get in in a race against him or something like that.

As for killing the children thing. Eh, well I've never had a child come back to haunt me for killing their parents. But then I've so far only ever had one 'kill the whole family' type of run.

It's interesting though to see the general rules folk come up for with runners. Though obviously there's a good deal of variation between those with a 'robin hood' complex and those who are just plain old psychopaths in it for the money.
Crusher Bob
QUOTE (nezumi @ Dec 19 2006, 09:12 AM)
Clearly the only solution is to kill everyone.

We were just waiting for you to ask. Someone just has to ask, and someone always does.
lorechaser
QUOTE (dog_xinu)
the short versions is how do you want to be treated? then treat others that way. Unless they do something to change that feeling.

dog

Do unto others before they do unto you.
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (lorechaser)
QUOTE (dog_xinu @ Dec 15 2006, 09:26 PM)
the short versions is how do you want to be treated?  then treat others that way.  Unless they do something to change that feeling.

dog

Do unto others before they do unto you.

Undo others before they undo you. cool.gif
IcyCool
QUOTE (nezumi)
Err...  Get in, get object, get out?  I think this rule is pretty darn silly.  Even making a peanut butter and jelly sandwich requires more than 3 steps.

It does? Get bread, add peanut butter, add jelly. What are the extra steps?
nezumi
I think the problem with mmu1's rule is that I'm a programmer, and if programmers strive for one thing, it's completeness and unambiguity.

So for me, the steps for making a PB&J sandwich would be:
1) Obtain 2 slices bread, peanut butter (x amount or more), jelly (x amount or more), spreading knife
2) Separate pieces of bread
3) Evenly apply and spread peanut butter (x amount) to one broad side of one slice of bread
4) Evenly apply and spread jelly (x amount) to one broad side of one slice of the non-peanut butter bread slice
5) Place slice one on slice two, with the peanut butter and jelly sides directly contacting each other
6) Cut as appropriate (which could include another 1-3 substeps)
7) Serve

I consider "Do research" a step in a good plan. I'd consider "obtain uniforms, secret codes" and "get into water with snorkeling gear" good steps in the plan he gave, as well as the how to escape plan. I also don't mind a few backup plans, if a particular step goes wrong. I understand I play very differently from him, and that my style of play is not for most people, but I think if you're playing a reasonably 'realistic' game, making a multi-step plan greatly increases your chance of success, even if you have to abandon the plan later (because, at minimum, you have fragments you can reuse). I am finding myself increasingly surprised by the number of players whose plan stops around the step of 'don't bring assault rifle, but SMG is okay', and kinda wing it from there.
lorechaser
Making multiple plans is also really good for the magician/adept with the Mountain mentor spirit.

My gm ruled that I had to stop declaring "I think 'Go in, do stuff' is enough of a plan" in order to avoid getting in trouble with my mentor spirit....

The real key to successful planning is being sure that everyone knows exactly what the plan is, and that everyone has a way to know if the plan changes. Having 3 backup plans is useless if half the team doesn't have a way to know when you change from plan 1 to plan 2. And "I'll call you on your comm" is definitely not acceptable, because typically you have to change plans because your comms break. wink.gif
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (lorechaser)
My gm ruled that I had to stop declaring "I think 'Go in, do stuff' is enough of a plan" in order to avoid getting in trouble with my mentor spirit....

Haha. Good for your GM. nyahnyah.gif
IcyCool
QUOTE (nezumi)
I think the problem with mmu1's rule is that I'm a programmer, and if programmers strive for one thing, it's completeness and unambiguity.

Ah, fair enough.

I think I'm more a proponent of simple and flexible. Without the flexible part, many plans seem like they would be doomed to failure.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (nezumi)
I think the problem with mmu1's rule is that I'm a programmer, and if programmers strive for one thing, it's completeness and unambiguity.

Speaking as a programmer, I think that's exactly the sort of thing mmu1 is trying to avoid. This path requires vast branching to avoid being fragile.

I might add another "rule to run by":

10) Any plan that doesn't survive contact with the enemy wasn't worth making.

10A) Plans that are worth making exist.

~J
nezumi
I would agree with both Kage and IcyCool. However, having a plan with many steps is not necessarily rigid, and having a plan doesn't mean you can't improvise as necessary. Of course in Shadowrun, things, practically by definition, don't go according to plan.

So yes, I make multi-stepped plans, with clearly defined goals, subgoals and steps to reach them. Yes, I regularly find that the plan gets interrupted half way by something unexpected. Sometimes the unexpected bit makes it impossible to continue with the plan (for instance, loss of a major asset or change of the primary goal), sometimes it only makes it so several steps are unnecessarily risky. Either way, at that point we improvise, drawing things in from the plan (keep in mind, step 1 of the plan is 'research', so there's plenty to draw on), as necessary.

Don't assume that because I make, define and write down a plan, I am incapable of being flexible. I simply think it is wise to know when flexibility is best and when a predefined plan is best, work to make those options available when time is plenty, and allow yourself to adjust as appropriate when time is short.

Lorechaser is also correct, and that is a major stopping point. Two different people are doing two different things (the decker, the mage and the mundanes are all doing different missions, and can't easily communicate) and something goes wrong with one of them. Coping with that can be... difficult, whether you're improvising or running off a plan.
Kesslan
Well, any good 'planner' can modify the plan on the fly.

The really important thing for a run is to do as much reasearch as you can while still remaining unnoticed. The more you know, the more things you can take into consideration when the carp inevitably hits the fan. I'm not sure exactly how carps manage to hit fans so often when they live in the water... but thats what I keep being told.

I suppose, worst case, you can try to grab the carp before it hits the fan, and then either serve it for dinner, or try to use it as a club to beat a guard senseless with as a last resort.
Crusher Bob
Part of the problem with planning is that is esentially an out of game activity that relies on player skill and communication, not of character skill. A lot of planning time can be cut down by having action drill that the team already knows how to do, but how many groups want to take the time to develop those?
warrior_allanon
QUOTE (Kesslan)
Well, any good 'planner' can modify the plan on the fly.

this is why my group had this rule

QUOTE
6) No body but Wolfgar makes the "Frag me sideways" plan
nezumi
QUOTE (Crusher Bob)
Part of the problem with planning is that is esentially an out of game activity that relies on player skill and communication, not of character skill. A lot of planning time can be cut down by having action drill that the team already knows how to do, but how many groups want to take the time to develop those?

Or the knowledge skill "Make Plan" (generally paired with the skills "Execute Plan" and "Improvise").
lorechaser
QUOTE (nezumi)
QUOTE (Crusher Bob @ Dec 21 2006, 05:15 AM)
Part of the problem with planning is that is esentially an out of game activity that relies on player skill and communication, not of character skill.  A lot of planning time can be cut down by having action drill that the team already knows how to do, but how many groups want to take the time to develop those?

Or the knowledge skill "Make Plan" (generally paired with the skills "Execute Plan" and "Improvise").

I find that taking those three, plus "Find Plot" are great skills to have....

I should point out that I was kidding about my GM having to tell me to have better plans.

Well, he really told me that, but it wasn't in response to my serious plans. wink.gif

I think the best summary of my view on plans is provided by Red Mage. It went something like "Let's not calcify the plan."

Honestly, all the runs my group has done lately have been of the half-planned, have a day to get there and it's 18 hours away sort.

Either that, or my team is just really bad at planning, and they all seem that way.

Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (IcyCool)
QUOTE (nezumi @ Dec 20 2006, 04:53 PM)
I think the problem with mmu1's rule is that I'm a programmer, and if programmers strive for one thing, it's completeness and unambiguity.

Ah, fair enough.

I think I'm more a proponent of simple and flexible. Without the flexible part, many plans seem like they would be doomed to failure.

It's too bad that no gaming group I've ever heard of has had enough panache to play Japanese Imperial Army style: staggering, long term, clockwork plans which are draconian in scope but which crumble when things don't go as expected or one leg of the plan fails.
wargear
As a GM, I find that the more time I give the PCs the more bogged down and confused they get. When I give them a run with 2 days or less they can generally execute a flawless plan. When they have a week or more in game they tend to get bogged down with overplanning.
fistandantilus4.0
I've seen that happen as well, usually because they think they've got forever and they get side tracked.
Kesslan
Yeah but thats really their own failing in a way. I've had cases where we were given a weeks time frame on a job. We did a few other side things, but mostly it consisted of recon. We didnt bother actually working out any sort of a plan untill about two hours before actually hitting the target.

I suppose thats really the key. Cause otherwise you -do- overplan things. Other times we went in with only a really basic and vague idea of what we were going to do and came out of it ok. Like that one convoy hit I've mentioned before. I went to a fixer and bought an AV landmine just on a hunch that we might find it useful (I tried to get more but he only had one in stock and wasnt able to find more before we had to do the job)

It actually came in handy once we got on site and setup the ambush. After first contact any plan would have gone to hell anyhow as they wound up with alot more firepower than we intially ever expected them to have.

I suppose thats really the main thing though with having a plan, you know it's going ot fall appart anyway, but at least it gives everyone some 'generalized' objectives and ways to go about doing things. So that even if you get split up everyone more or less knows what to expect shoudl things actually be going their way.
Butterblume
QUOTE (Kesslan)
Yeah but thats really their own failing in a way. I've had cases where we were given a weeks time frame on a job. We did a few other side things, but mostly it consisted of recon. We didnt bother actually working out any sort of a plan untill about two hours before actually hitting the target.

Parkinson's law.

("work expands so as to fill the time available for its completion.")
nezumi
I do think that learning the skill of dividing up and managing your time, breaking problems into smaller problems, and otherwise learning project management skills is an advantage to Shadowrun that I haven't enjoyed playing any other game. Both my wife and I noticed after the first year or two of playing SR (or a close derivative) that we had acquired real-life skills we apply regularly in our day to day life.

Of course, again, some people just play games to decompress, so I don't expect people to think my method is favorable. I just always assumed it was more popular than it apparently is.
lorechaser
"Yeah, Nezumi? I want to talk to you about this memo."

"Yeah boss?"

"I see here that you indicated that if accounting complains about the budget we should 'geek' them. Now I'm not entirely sure what that means, but you seem to have a step after it for hiding the bodies, so I'm not sure it's what we're going for here."

SR requires far more accomplished plans than most games, I think. It's the lethality of the opposition. In DnD, if you make a bad plan, you have 150 hp worth of fighter to use as a backup.

SR you make a bad plan, and two IPs later, you're full of holes and lead.
Lindt
SR is funny like that.
After long enough you catch yourself looking at things differently ("Oh look, there should be a dead spot in those cameras right about... here"). In the process of writing and running I have learned a few odd tidbits of data concerning computer security, locksmithing, ballistics (out the ass...).
fistandantilus4.0
rotfl.gif

I always smile when my wife sees something in the news that reminds her of Shadowrun. Usually happens about once every other news paper (because she doesn't read the whole thing).
wargear
After years of playing Shadowrun, I found working in corporate security to be nervewracking. The holes these places have in their security are big enough to drive a step van through.

Had to give it up after a while. smile.gif
Vaevictis
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
10) Any plan that doesn't survive contact with the enemy wasn't worth making.

I'll disagree here, and I'll quote Eisenhower who said it much better than I ever could:

"In preparing for battle, I have always found that plans are useless, but planning is indispensable."

Even if the plan fails to survive contact with the enemy, having had one, you at least know the "whats" that need to be accomplished even if the "how" you envisioned isn't going to work. The key is to allow for units to accomplish the "whats" on their own initiative when the "hows" fail.
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (wargear)
After years of playing Shadowrun, I found working in corporate security to be nervewracking. The holes these places have in their security are big enough to drive a step van through.

Had to give it up after a while. smile.gif

To be fair, in most cases today the corporate security is for insurance purposes and not because anyone is expecting shadowrunners.
ShadowDragon8685
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)
QUOTE (wargear @ Dec 22 2006, 04:52 PM)
After years of playing Shadowrun, I found working in corporate security to be nervewracking. The holes these places have in their security are big enough to drive a step van through.

Had to give it up after a while. smile.gif

To be fair, in most cases today the corporate security is for insurance purposes and not because anyone is expecting shadowrunners.

Sounds....... Exploitable. smile.gif
nezumi
Ironically, many methods a shadowrunner would use would likely result in no insurance payout, as there would be no signs of force entry.
ShadowDragon8685
QUOTE (nezumi)
Ironically, many methods a shadowrunner would use would likely result in no insurance payout, as there would be no signs of force entry.

Which is probably why 2070s corporations go to such lengths to provide their own brand of 10mm caseless 'insurance'. smile.gif
Kesslan
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685)
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ Dec 22 2006, 08:51 PM)
QUOTE (wargear @ Dec 22 2006, 04:52 PM)
After years of playing Shadowrun, I found working in corporate security to be nervewracking. The holes these places have in their security are big enough to drive a step van through.

Had to give it up after a while. smile.gif

To be fair, in most cases today the corporate security is for insurance purposes and not because anyone is expecting shadowrunners.

Sounds....... Exploitable. smile.gif

It's not really exploitable. It's really just that the corps need several things.

Visible presence as a deterrent. They know they cant stop all the thefts, but just having some one visibly going around etc helps cut down alot more than you'd think.

Two, it makes those working there, generally feel safer both about their person and their things, even if this really isnt the case at all.

Three, security people make excellen scapegoats if something goes wrong. And they WILL lie and such if something goes horribly wrong and try to pin it on you more often than some people might think. It's why every security job I've eveer worked in allways had a CYA policy among the guards. Write down everything, no matter how trivial it may seem, because either the client, or your own security company (Which can be both) are quite likely to try to screw you some day.

Best example I have, there was a hydro strike a few years back locally, alot of us got posted to various hyro sites around the city, because occasionally workers would show up and picket the place, and a few were attempting to engage in flat out vandalism. So this one place I was posted to one night for a 12hr shift had a setup like the following.

It was a hydro station in the middle of the city, it sits directly on an intersection, and the front of the building goes right up to the sidewalk, there is also a public bus stop a few feet over towards the corner, all in all in the front there are two large main doors, and (facing the building) there is a side door on the left hand side of the building.

On the right hand side, near the back of hte building is another door, and behind the building (and directly attached to) is a very large fenced in area. There is also ANOTHER door that leads direclty from the building to the fenced in area, and in the fenced in area there are various transformers, a vehicle garage, some other small building and so on.

As far as I know the place had no security cameras at all. My post was a truck, outside for that whole 12hrs on the right hand side of the building. There was no washroom, there was no lunchroom, and beyond the truck there was no shelter. Also the truck was pretty much allways without gas, my only 'offical' provided contact with anyone was a two way radio that couldnt be charged because the truck's battery was dead and had been for the past week.

Now right next to the right hand side of the building, is also a public park. The driveway into the fenced in area goes right up against the property line between the park and the hydro property. So anyway at round 6pm or so, some lady and a guy are in the park sitting there near the truck. I thought it abit odd, but since they were NOT on hydro property, I had absolutely no legal standing what so ever to do anything at all about them. Eventually the woman cuts across the drive way, and goes onto the sidewalk (public property again).

Now, this building was completely locked up, and we didnt have keys or access to the building ourselves. The doors had all been securely bared/locked shut etc long before I was working there that day. So bout two hours later I have some FS drop by saying that supposedly one of the hydro bosses had walked right past me, and gone in through the front door of the building blah blah blah and gone about inside etc.

Now the thing is, I can only assume that the lady in question was said hydro boss. However, while I did do my hourly patrols, that does not mean I can see all around the building at al intervals. And last I'd seen of said lady, she was standing by the public bus stop and the bus along that route is active till about 2am. So again I have absolutely no reason to worry about her. And considering the building wasnt broken into, a key was used, and there isnt a single damn alarm or security camera in or around that place, I'm hardly supprised she was able to 'sneak in' especialy when it takes me about half an hour to walk around the perimeter of the property.

Of course given the fact that both the hydro company and my own were breaking several labour laws and also only paying me a crappy 9/hr I honestly, couldnt care less about the place anyway. We are not there to stop anyone, I didnt own a cellphone at the time even, so I had litterally no real contact with the 'rest of the world' as it were (there's no housing around that area, it's mostly all buisnesses and they close shortly after I started working around there durring the strike).

They did however try to get me fired over the whole thing but all I had to do was point out the flaws in their own setup which was horricially easy to do and that quite promptly shut them up.

On a normal operating day, that building is completely unsecure beyond some locked doors. There's some 20 easy points of entry on the groundfloor alone (Mostly through windows) and over half of them can be accessed without being visible on the main street. Given the lack of people that live directly in the area, at 2am etc you could kick in the front door and chances are no one would notice till 8am or so when/if a Hydro worker actually went to that station. There are also, as I said, absolutely no alarms. Which means no police being notififed automatically either.

And this, is but one example of many I could give.
Drraagh
QUOTE (Lindt)
SR is funny like that.
After long enough you catch yourself looking at things differently ("Oh look, there should be a dead spot in those cameras right about... here"). In the process of writing and running I have learned a few odd tidbits of data concerning computer security, locksmithing, ballistics (out the ass...).

I've got a bunch of stuff like that too. I was big in the sciiences in highschool so I bought a bunch of books on stuff like electronics, chemistry, biology, and I've got various stuff I collected on drugs, lockpicking, explosives, and so forth both in paper copy and in electronic format that were someone to go through my stuff, I would have one hell of a time explaining myself. Not to mention the swords and such I got when I used to do a lot of live action stuff.

But seriously, on some of the forums I've hung out at in discussing stuff like this, I have to wonder how many terror alerts have been started because of people playing role playing games or even just someone being a little too thorough on a research project?
TheRedRightHand
I have only one rule:

"If violence isn't getting you what you want,
then you are not being violent enough..."


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