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Draug
With Saddam getting executed, what's going on elsewhere in the Middle East and all that stuff, I'm sort of wondering: What's going on in the Middle East in 2070? I'm not an SR vet, but I have picked up a couple of lines about a Desert War and some Saeder-Krupp interests. I also read the stuff on Djinn and Arabian magic in this thread.

So, how has the area evolved?

- Is global terrorism still going strong, and if so against what targets?
- Does Israel still exist, and if so, who backs them when the USA has fallen apart?
- How did the territories liberated/occupied by NATO/coalition forces develop?
- What happened to Iran aside from Tehran being leveled by a dragon?
- How have terrorist tactics and counter terrorism/counterinsurgency warfare developed?

Any canon info would be nice, before I start tossing out my own ideas.
Kesslan
You may want to check out the Threats 2 book for a few things, there's a couple of terrorist groups in there. Even if they dont consider themselves such their easily classified as one.

As far as the middle east goes, there isnt really a whole hell of alot of information. Ibin Isa or how ever his name is spelled, had united most of the middle east or some such, then was assassinated, taken over by a greater Sheddim, which was several years later revealed, and now the whoel damn place is once more undergoing massive upheaval.

There are still a few seas of stability in an otherwise unstable area, simply kept that way either by fear, or force of arms.

But that seems to be the way of it in most of the 2070 world. By that point so many people have body armor or guns I dont think it's really possible to start shooting without at least -someone- shooting back in short order.

As far as terrorist attacks and such, it's sort of hard to say. System Failure goes into some basic details of how various powers that be reacted to the plans of Winternight being revealed. Though thats so horribly chaotic and hurried simply because it was litterally a last second, too late for a well planed response revelation so they just did it real quick and dirty.

I don think I've -ever- seen an example of an 'ordinary' approach to dealing with terrorism in general. But it's certainly a wide spread occurance. Everything from Terra First! to Alamos 20k to more secritive groups with foul ends in mind to Shadowrunners.

Shadowrunners for the most part seem to me to very easily fall under the bill of 'terrorism' as a whole, since they engage in pretty much any criminal activity you can think of. Even though they dont necesarily represent any one specific group.

To me it seems the general response is to find a cell, maybe try to infiltrate it, but if that fails, go in with the big guns and squash it flat, and maybe then they'll learn not to pick on you and go bother some one else.
SL James
QUOTE (Jarl)
So, how has the area evolved?

- Is global  terrorism still going strong, and if so against what targets?

It's not entirely clear. As far as Islamic terrorism, it seems limited to the region and areas where Muslims are fighting non-Muslims, such as the Balkans.

QUOTE
- Does Israel still exist, and if so, who backs them when the USA has fallen apart?

Yes. Ares and the Frankfurt Bank Association are the two biggest actors. SoA goes into detail about how it wasn't overrun, but I think it makes far too many positive assumptions and ignores such things as the IDF facing such mundane setbacks as running out of bullets.

QUOTE
- How did the territories liberated/occupied by NATO/coalition forces develop?

Occupied how? NATO never went into the Middle East or Central Asia, and hasn't existed since the EuroWars.

QUOTE
- What happened to Iran aside from Tehran being leveled by a dragon?

Unoriginally... Not much. It's about the same as it is now.

QUOTE
- How have terrorist tactics and counter terrorism/counterinsurgency warfare developed?

See below.

QUOTE (Kesslan @ Dec 30 2006, 12:58 AM)
You may want to check out the Threats 2 book for a few things, there's a couple of terrorist groups in there.

And Year of the Comet, Dragons of the Sixth World, Loose Alliances, Survival of the Fittest, Shadows of Asia, Sprawl Survival Guide, Target:Wastelands, SOTA:2063 and SOTA:2064, and System Failure.

QUOTE (Kesslan)
I don think I've -ever- seen an example of an 'ordinary' approach to dealing with terrorism in general. But it's certainly a wide spread occurance. Everything from Terra First! to Alamos 20k to more secritive groups with foul ends in mind to Shadowrunners.

Well it's not like terrorists blew up the Sears Tower, murdering 26,000 people in the span of about a minute.

Wait...

Speaking of Alamos 20,000... I can very easily understand how they came to being, and why the organization still exists. I mean, to be quite frank, if a group of terrorists killed 20,000 people and the government fucked around so badly that they lost 60% of the U.S. landmass, I'd be pretty pissed at the government and the terrorists who now controlled that former U.S. landmass as a "government."

Funny, I was just thinking about this with regards to some things I've been working on for a possible new campaign. Just doing a little of the old cut & paste here,

QUOTE
Throughout the 1990s, the federal government was reduced in size to almost half its size. The Defense Department had its budget reduced by 40%. In 1999, food riots in New York led to the Seretech decision. And nothing happened.

In 2009, a nuclear missile silo was attacked, seized, and held by terrorists. When it was raided, a missile was launched and all Hell brook loose.

In 2016, the President of the United States was assassinated, and Hell found a home in the western United States.

Until 2018, when the Great Ghost Dance showed the government how defenseless it was against magic. The government ceded 55-60% of the nation's land mass, and nothing happened.

In 2029, the Internet was destroyed. Chaos enveloped the country for days, weeks, months. And yet in the end, nothing happened.

In the 2030s, California, and the southern states seceded. The military and security forces were reduced by at least 40% in numbers. Nothing happened.

In February 2039, widespread acts of racial violence led to countless deaths and injuries, and could have torn the government apart, and yet nothing happened.

Two days later, the Sears Tower was destroyed in one of the most destructive acts of terrorism the world has ever seen, killing 26,000 people. Nothing happened.

Two waves of VITAS struck, wiping out over 1/3 of the U.S. population, and nothing happened.

UGE and Goblinization occurred, and nothing happened.

In August 2055, the north-central section of the city of Chicago was quarantined; isolated from the world. Three days later, a subtactical nuclear weapon was detonated within the city of Chicago. Nothing happened.

At the same time, there were riots within Washington, DC that required the military to suppress the riots, and all the while there was an attempted coup against the President. Nothing happened.

In 2057, the President and Vice President of the UCAS were impeached. Nothing happened.

In August, the new President was assassinated nine hours after taking the oath. No one ever found out who committed the act. Nothing happened.

In 2064, there were two nuclear detonations—one destroyed the oldest major city in North America, and the other was right outside of Washington. They were supplemented by a virus in the Matrix which crippled the Matrix both physically and content-wise. The next day elements of the military rose up, wiped out half of the top government officials in the UCAS, and did the same thing in every other country in North America. The President Pro Tempore of the Senate became the President of the UCAS.

Nothing happened.

NOTHING HAPPENED.

It is high time that something HAPPENS, and it happens NOW.

This isn't a shot across the bow. It's a torpedo to the water line. They want dark. Then I will give them dark. They want grit, and I will show them what it feels like to be raked across a field of glass shards.

If there is ever a nuclear weapon detonated within the United States, then all bets are off. The very existence of the government and the nation comes into question. Freedom as we know it will cease to exist. Whenever a government exerts power and takes liberty away from the people, liberty will never return under that government.

For eight decades, Washington, the UCAS government and the UCAS itself have faced existential threats over and over again. Throughout history, no government has ever faced any such threat and loosened its grip on power, and its stranglehold on freedom. Nor have such governments ever reduced the amount of violence they inflict upon their populace.


Just thinking out loud. Sorry for the minor derailment.
Kesslan
Yeah, that is quite true. I mean its the same thing with alot of governments world round in Shadowrun. Ultimately it's like. The people answer to the police, the police answer to the elected or appointed state/provincial officals, those in turn answer to the main goverment, which in turn....answers to the corporations that fund their elections, put them in power or something else along those lines.

It's part of the reason I'm very interested in what exactly is going to happen with the UCAS now. Because effectively, one military coup, trumped another military coup. And now, the president in power, owes that power to... who? Herself? Some one else?

Colson certainly has direct connections with the UCAS Military. And it might well be that its been decided to try to keep the blindfolds on the people, while the military asserts its power over the populace.

Seattle is the UCAS's last main port on the Pacific coast.

Seattle is effectively on the verge of breaking off in a matter of years at the most, much like California did.

The numbers of troops stationed in/near Seattle is increasing.

There is at least, the groundwork in place for UCAS becomming a very hard line, military lead country now. And that's just Seattle.

It's almost like another Aztlan is forming, but instead of the entire country being owned by a corporation, it will be a military dictatorship. I can certainly see that as being a sort of pro military dicatorship propaganda sheet running round in an underground sense really.

Sure the military may have failed Detroit. But the Military was first failed by the 'corrupt' UCAS government which had been controled by the corporations. When the corps decided it was no longer worth their while to foot the bill, they suddenly, and without warning pulled out, leaving both the government, and thus the military completely flat footed.

Terrorists smashed most of the old goverment, the UCAS army helped 'save' the UCAS and hold it togeather in trying times. And for these reasons Colson is elected as the new president. But.. it was fixed once, why not again? I'm rather interested to see just how much power the miltary now has in UCAS affairs in the world of 2070.

And if it's more or less 'buisness as usual' well then hell yes there's going to be a complete rebellion in time. People shall cry out against the corruption, they will demand to know what the hell their tax money is doing to protect them from the evils of the world.

And eventually -someone- will give them those answers. They might not be the truth, but they will be presented as such and the mob will take it and carry it as their banner.

Now that it's been brought up. Considering just how much overall upheaval there has been in the world. I seriously wonder how the hell things seem to keep recovering so damn fast.

Nuclear weapons have been detonated on several occasions, natural and man made disasters have torn ares of the world assunder time and time again. A terrorist organization effectively destroyed the world as we knew it. And not for the first time.

Nooo..

First it was the awakening and the war it brought.

Then it was the virus created by... who? Who trashed the worlds computers.

Then it was Winternight which was only partially foiled at the last moment and even so nukes and mega spells still brought about their effects.

In Detroit, relief efforts were hampered to the point they were called off entirely because of armed groups.

I mean even the good little corporate hounds in their arcologies must occasionally hear word of things that go on in the outside world that goes beyond what is the corporations 'official' news sources, even if it's just some minor element.

Many do not have arcologies or use them in certain areas, so they have more than just corporate sources to draw information from.

2005-2019 brings major upheaval, VITAS, Dragons, the awakenining, massive natural disasters as well as magical and nuclear war.

Things dont even have time to settle.

2020-2023 goblinization, and yet another major outbreak of VITAS.

2028-2036 You have war, you have the forming and dissolution of various countries, as well as the formation of new ones by others seceding or merging with others. Not to mention the massive world wide computer crash of 29.

2039 You have the night of rage. GLOBAL RIOTING. Not just in one city or one country. -Everywhere-. As well as another mass 70,000 person killing man made toxic spill

Everything supprisingly is rather quiet, a few major terrosit acts, alot of underworld naughtyness but little else untill..

2055: Bug City and a nuke! Woohoo!

2060: Renraku Arcology

Relatively quet times. Guess the world ifnally gets to take abit of a breath eh? Woops!

2061: Year of the Comet, SURGE which causes almost as much freaking out as UGE and Goblinizagtion did

2064: Matrix Crash 2.0 world wide! More chaos! The New Revolution kicks up in the UCAS, kills off a good deal of the UCAS government. It's put down and martial law is declared to keep order. And lets not forget Winternights antics which helped kick off the crash either...

2067: The UTE Nation falls appart and in the NAN Tsimshian falls prey to the antics of Mitsuhama and the Salish-Shidhe Council.

2069: Saito is removed from california. More super fun major natural disasters!

2070: Present day. Woot! Is the chaos over yet?

Thats really only 21 years of any notable stability in the world in over 65 years.

Think about that a moment folks. Even the 'average' ork lives to about 45. The average human probably lives closer to about 100. Thats a hell of alot of chaos within just one generation alone.
SL James
QUOTE (Kesslan @ Dec 30 2006, 04:31 AM)
Now that it's been brought up. Considering just how much overall upheaval there has been in the world. I seriously wonder how the hell things seem to keep recovering so damn fast.

Recovery, Hell. Every time I see a commercial raising money for the 9/11 memorial, I start laughing because it makes me think of how in the same about of time in SR, there is one for the Crash of '64 sitting in the middle of downtown Seattle.

And then UMS 2 gets finalized in February 2065, which is fine until I logon and read about the latest goings-on of the HD-DVD/Blu-Ray debacle, and that's a relatively inconsequential conflict over video media, not the architecture the Internet is based on (Yes, yes: WMI and the self-congratulatory jerkfest over how much better Europe is about everything. Spare me.)

Beyond that, the whole thing about the UCAS is ... another issue. Although there is plenty of fun to be had with the Kharijite terrorist leader who lives in Washington.
Kesslan
Yeah but I dont mean no a sort of... mental level. I mean economically, politically and everything else.

Honestly, as bad as it was, 9/11 was just another drop in the historical bucket. Ultimately it lead to alot of changes, as well as war in both Iraq and Afghanistan once more.

But really. Compared to things like World War I and World War II and the great depression that kicked it off, it really was a drop in the bucket. I think part of the reason such a huge deal was made over it (Beyond the massive loss of life and financial damage) was the fact that for the first time ever, some piddly little 3rd world country actually managed to seriously strike back at the US in a massive media attention grabbing way.

In the SR Timeline you've got stuff on the scale off WWII not once, not twice, not even thrice, but FOUR TIMES. And then you've got, to top it off, the media coverate you had of 9/11 to bring it right into your living room if you somehow managed to remian otherwise unaffected by it.

And thats not even accounting for the other crap that happened that also affected the entire world. Not just a few countries.

And there are still major warzones raging through the entire SR timeline to boot. From the crap in Calfree, to the Yukatan, to the Middle East, Russia and beyond.

9/11 was one of those many sparks in history that lit off a powder keg. But how often, in the history of the world, have so many sparks and so many powder kegs been set off as has happened in the 2005-2070 timeline of Shadowrun?

And then the public, to boot, being provided with tons of information about every little detail as it affected folk both at home and internationally? Far as I know, that answer is never. The Cold War might come abit close but that was still for a good part, buisiness as usual. The threat neveer materialized.

In the Sixth World, it not only materialized, it keeps doing so, so often that a single generation has collectively and effectively seen/heard or read about more war, strife, distruction and plague than several hundred years put togeather. And it's not out of all out history book either. Its was all live, real and in your face reality. All those moments of horror hammered into your brain again and again in high definition. To quote Swordfish 'You can practically smell the brain matter'.

Hell with simsense YOU CAN!
ShadowDragon8685
By all accounts, the Sixth World should have fractured at the seams long before 2070.

Something's keeping it together. I say it's the GDs and Free Spirits working to surpress everything that would cause the major upheaval needed to spark off a worldwide revoloution...


And when they fail to surpress the spark, they do something to surpress the powder, apparently.
Kesslan
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685)
By all accounts, the Sixth World should have fractured at the seams long before 2070.

Something's keeping it together. I say it's the GDs and Free Spirits working to surpress everything that would cause the major upheaval needed to spark off a worldwide revoloution...


And when they fail to surpress the spark, they do something to surpress the powder, apparently.

Well I certainly agree with that.

I mean seriously. Just think for a moment. How fresh, in your mind, are the actions and reprocussions of 9/11?

To me, to this day I can still remember what I was doing and when, when the teachers assistant rushed into the classrooom to tell everyone about the news. And how we all halted our work to go watch the television in the workshop.

I still vividly remember that pit in my stomach and mentioning to one of my friends how much that evet. Not the deaths, but the act itself, was going to change everything in our world.

It effectively has.

Canadian/US relations have gone down the tubes compared to how it was. There's alot more bitterness and resentment on both sides.

There's still a great deal of controversy over the involvment with Afghanistan and Iraq. Alot of people are crying to bring our soldiers home. But at least so far people are realizing a total pullout right now would make matters far, far far worse than staying ever could.

We as a whole went in there, did ALOT of damage. As a result it really is our job to help rebuild is my way of thinking. Regardless of our inital reasons being right or wrong. It's totally irrelevant. The fact is, we did it.

But now take that one event. And start multiplying.

The world economy from the present relatively small wars has allready been hit hard. Now take that times four and add in two, however brief great depressions the two crashes repersented.

Now mix in massive natural and human made distasters.

If you really start to dig at it. It really is a wonder the whole world hasnt at least by now decended into total anarcy. In a way...

I think it has.

Power is alot more focused in a way. Relatively small areas controled by goverments or corporations by force of arms if necessary. Both lethal and non lethal.

Most major cities have an E or Z-zone or a combination thereof.

And then to top it off you have GDs and Greater Free Sprits claiming certain other areas as their own personal turf.

It's not total anarcy. But it's damn close to it.
Charon
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Dec 30 2006, 06:41 AM)
By all accounts, the Sixth World should have fractured at the seams long before 2070.

But it has.

What, the sixth world looks stable to you? Poles of powers are so numerous they are hard to keep track of and they rise and fall at incredible speed. And urban life looks like a war zone through a significant portion of rich countries.
Draug
Thanks for book suggestions, guys.

So the basic run-down of the Middle East is “almost united by Muslim fundamentalists before their leader was killed, possessed by a demon, and then died again”. Sounds unrealistic, but fun, to me.

QUOTE (SL James)
It's not entirely clear. As far as Islamic terrorism, it seems limited to the region and areas where Muslims are fighting non-Muslims, such as the Balkans.

Lots of anger north of Turkey and around the Caspian Sea, then. Sounds feasible, since it's actually happening now too.

QUOTE (SL James)
Yes. Ares and the Frankfurt Bank Association are the two biggest actors. SoA goes into detail about how it wasn't overrun, but I think it makes far too many positive assumptions and ignores such things as the IDF facing such mundane setbacks as running out of bullets.

That does sound a bit strange. Why would Ares and the FBA sponsor them? Oil? If most of the Middle East was united under this Ibn Isa – presumably a fundamentalist – then I have some problems seeing how Israel could hold on. I mean, with Iran as a neighbor, they probably wouldn't. Never mind nearly a whole Middle East gone Iranian. At least, it would be total war.

QUOTE (SL James)
Occupied how? NATO never went into the Middle East or Central Asia, and hasn't existed since the EuroWars.

As far as I know, Afghanistan is a NATO operation. I said “occupied”, because some people across the world has that viewpoint on Iraq and/or Afghanistan.

QUOTE (SL James)
Unoriginally... Not much. It's about the same as it is now.

Fundamentalist Islam country who manages to complete a nuclear program because the west goes to hell in a handbasket three-four times. Scary. I wonder if they're planning on nuking Aden?

QUOTE (SL James)
Funny, I was just thinking about this with regards to some things I've been working on for a possible new campaign. Just doing a little of the old cut & paste here,

Some of this has merit, but even with my very limited knowledge of the Shadowrun universe, I think I can point out responses and things that happened as results of several of those instances. However, why don't we do that in a separate thread, and keep this one focused on the Middle East.

QUOTE (Kesslan)


It's part of the reason I'm very interested in what exactly is going to happen with the UCAS now. Because effectively, one military coup, trumped another military coup. And now, the president in power, owes that power to... who? Herself? Some one else?

Where can I find info on this stuff? I haven't seen a lot in the BBB...

Anyway, can we keep this thread on the Middle East, and rather start a new thread on North American terrorism and revolution?

QUOTE (Kesslan)
And there are still major warzones raging through the entire SR timeline to boot. From the crap in Calfree, to the Yukatan, to the Middle East, Russia and beyond.

So, there are still wars in the Middle East? Who are fighting them?

QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 )
By all accounts, the Sixth World should have fractured at the seams long before 2070.

It has fractured. Into the kind of semi-anarchic society that allows corporations to thrive because there is no government or people strong enough to oppose them. Anyway, Middle East, please.

QUOTE (Kesslan)
I mean seriously. Just think for a moment. How fresh, in your mind, are the actions and reprocussions of 9/11?

Not very fresh at all. I long expected a strike at the US, even at age 12-13 (which was when the planes hit). I also expected the results we see now, because I come from a mountain country. I know how hard it is to fight a dug-in, well-connected defender who knows the lay of the land, because this is military doctrine where I am from (Norway). It was the Norwegian plan of defense all along if the Soviets decided to roll over the border during the cold war.

Ultimately, Iraq and Afghanistan will not directly change anything for the western world. What is happening began long before that. Western awareness merely increased with 9/11. OK, perhaps the speed accelerated a little, but that's about it.

QUOTE (Kesslan)
If you really start to dig at it. It really is a wonder the whole world hasnt at least by now decended into total anarcy. In a way...

It has. Corporations hold it together, because they profit from stable but weak western societies. All the consumer power, none of the true power.

QUOTE (Kesslan)
Power is alot more focused in a way. Relatively small areas controled by goverments or corporations by force of arms if necessary. Both lethal and non lethal.

With all the AAA corps being non-Muslim and large parts of the Middle-East undergoing a phase of extreme fundamentalism, I have problems seeing how corporations manage to achieve the same level of influence there as they do in the western world and the more chaotic continent of Africa. Sharia law is totalitarian and anti-capitalist, and far too many people down there do not care if they starve or suffer, as long as they resist the western ways.

Turkey might still be going western, but others who are tilting in both directions, such as Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Egypt, will probably fall over into the fundamentalist faction under Ibn Isa. And that would mean no corporate interests.

Actually then, with Isa's fall from grace, here's a theory: Islam is failing the region, and the Imams are struggling to hang on to power. Meanwhile, newly formed governments, desperate for aid, are turning to the western world for help. It is not there. Instead, corporations flock in, eager to “help develop the countries”, at the same time digging in their positions in the region, and exploiting any resources they come across.

A new wave of terrorism flares up as the fundamentalist Imams and the Shia begin suicide bombings, but corporations are far more effective – and ruthless – when it comes to striking down insurgencies, and the area once again degenerates into chaos. This time though, the west is winning, employing a coordinated mix of propaganda, espionage and violence.

I'm starting to get ideas... biggrin.gif

EDIT: What's up with the tags???

EDIT 2: Now they're working. Wierd...
SL James
QUOTE (Kesslan @ Dec 30 2006, 05:32 AM)
Honestly, as bad as it was, 9/11 was just another drop in the historical bucket.

That's what I meant. In SR terms, it's pretty much inconsequential. The one thing that has kept every physical aspect of rebuilding ground to a halt has been politics. Yet somehow that shit moves at warp speed in SR until it's convenient for it not to.

QUOTE (Jarl)
QUOTE (SL James)
Yes. Ares and the Frankfurt Bank Association are the two biggest actors. SoA goes into detail about how it wasn't overrun, but I think it makes far too many positive assumptions and ignores such things as the IDF facing such mundane setbacks as running out of bullets.

That does sound a bit strange. Why would Ares and the FBA sponsor them? Oil?

I can't really say without going back and checking Shadows of Asia. Frankly, I think it would be a much better story if Israel and Palestine didn't exist the way they do in that book. But, oil? No. Israel has no oil.

And Sader-Krupp is the biggest player in the petroleum industry, which goes to show how different the world is in SR that the Americans have almost entirely disengaged from the region. It's not like the UCAS came riding to Israel's aid during the Second Ottoman Jihad, which would at least partly explain how it magically survived.

QUOTE
If most of the Middle East was united under this Ibn Isa – presumably a fundamentalist

He wasn't a fundamentalist before he died. When he returned, he called for a New Islamic Jihad, which first and foremost led to conflict within the muslim countries rather than without.

QUOTE
QUOTE (SL James)
Occupied how? NATO never went into the Middle East or Central Asia, and hasn't existed since the EuroWars.

As far as I know, Afghanistan is a NATO operation. I said “occupied”, because some people across the world has that viewpoint on Iraq and/or Afghanistan.

NATO never went into Central Asia or the Middle East in Shadowrun.

QUOTE
I wonder if they're planning on nuking Aden?

hahaha. Yeah, like that merited converage.

QUOTE
I can point out responses and things that happened as results of several of those instances. However, why don't we do that in a separate thread, and keep this one focused on the Middle East.

The context of "Nothing happened" is limited to structural inaction within the United States and UCAS. In that context, I am quite correct.

QUOTE
QUOTE
It's part of the reason I'm very interested in what exactly is going to happen with the UCAS now. Because effectively, one military coup, trumped another military coup. And now, the president in power, owes that power to... who? Herself? Some one else?

Where can I find info on this stuff? I haven't seen a lot in the BBB...

System Failure, which isn't worth the money, and discussions on Dumpshock.

QUOTE
PWith all the AAA corps being non-Muslim and large parts of the Middle-East undergoing a phase of extreme fundamentalism, I have problems seeing how corporations manage to achieve the same level of influence

As they do today? Easily. By force, usually through the proxy of a corrupt regime.

QUOTE
Turkey might still be going western, but others who are tilting in both directions, such as Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Egypt, will probably fall over into the fundamentalist faction under Ibn Isa. And that would mean no corporate interests.

Seriously, just buy Shadows of Asia. There is way to much information to go into any sort of detail.
Draug
QUOTE (SL James)
But, oil? No. Israel has no oil.

I meant as an anchor point for connections into the Muslim territories. I'm basically fishing for solutions here, though...

QUOTE (SL James )
And Sader-Krupp is the biggest player in the petroleum industry, which goes to show how different the world is in SR that the Americans have almost entirely disengaged from the region. It's not like the UCAS came riding to Israel's aid during the Second Ottoman Jihad, which would at least partly explain how it magically survived.

The USA has collapsed, and has more than enough to do in North America.

Second Ottoman Jihad? Woa! Never heard of that before. Sounds random.

QUOTE (SL James )
He wasn't a fundamentalist before he died. When he returned, he called for a New Islamic Jihad, which first and foremost led to conflict within the muslim countries rather than without.

Looking at it from a current-day standpoint, it seems highly unlikely that a non-fundamentalist would be able to unite the Middle East, whether through military power, economic pressure or any other way.

QUOTE (SL James)
NATO never went into Central Asia or the Middle East in Shadowrun.

Oh, right. The real world and Shadowrun's Sixth World have already officially parted ways. Forgot about that...

QUOTE (SL James)
The context of "Nothing happened" is limited to structural inaction within the United States and UCAS. In that context, I am quite correct.

As in: There is still a president, a senate, a congress, a high court, and the constitution is the same?

QUOTE (SL James)
System Failure, which isn't worth the money, and discussions on Dumpshock.

Okay, I'll stick to DS, then.

QUOTE
As they do today? Easily. By force, usually through the proxy of a corrupt regime.

Maybe I'm not enough (or too much) of a conspiracy theorist, but I don't see a lot of corporate western interests in Iran or Palestine. Asian, sure, but mostly from countries that the west doesn't really like that much.

QUOTE
Seriously, just buy Shadows of Asia. There is way to much information to go into any sort of detail.

I might do that. Still, the book is five years old, and with the way SR and RL has diverged, I'm not certain I want to stick to SR canon all the way. I like my dystopian near-future to be influenced by actual events in the world as well as the crazy stuff.

I caught a line somewhere on the boards about DS not being very tolerant to non-canon, though... We'll see...
ErrosCallidus

QUOTE
here's a theory: Islam is failing the region, and the Imams are struggling to hang on to power. Meanwhile, newly formed governments, desperate for aid, are turning to the western world for help. It is not there. Instead, corporations flock in, eager to “help develop the countries”, at the same time digging in their positions in the region, and exploiting any resources they come across.

A new wave of terrorism flares up as the fundamentalist Imams and the Shia begin suicide bombings, but corporations are far more effective – and ruthless – when it comes to striking down insurgencies, and the area once again degenerates into chaos. This time though, the west is winning, employing a coordinated mix of propaganda, espionage and violence. (Jarl)


First of all suicide bombings are NOT limited to the Shia, it depends more on a particular Imam's politics and personal feelings than on sect.

As to Islam failing here anytime soon, it would take A LOT more than one leader being discredited for that to happen. It's not so much a 'religion' as we understand in the west as a way of life. Intertwined through every aspect of dailiy living. more realistic would be a surge of "new" sects in Islam based on the differing reactions to magic/corps/etc. and their resultant interaction. Mullah Omar and the Taliban have been "dethroned" and discredited, but Islam itself is still very much alive in Afghanistan today.

For corps you've basically recapped what the west has been TRYING to do since the crusades, through to the British Mandate and on up to now. why should it work any differently in 2070? Sure surveillance tech may have improved, but so have counter surveillence techs and today's insurgents have showed a sophisticated use of technology of their own. So I'm not sure that the corps could realistically be said to be winning this time. An interesting thing would be the formation of "hilal/Islamic" corps who would then be trying to break into the western far eastern markets and the resulting corporate warfare.

The last time the Middle East united significantly in RL was back in Salah Al-din's time with the massive threat of foreign invasion. Something could do that in SR world, but it would have to be BIG to get everybody working together.

For a real mess Both Muslim corps and sects would develop simultaneously with just as many reasons for attacking each other as working together... could have real "fun" with that. Then throw in traditional family honor and filial ties to make a really screwed up mess where the only link between two disparate orgs is by blood. No paper, no money connections to track just a marriage or two here and there.
SL James
QUOTE (Jarl @ Dec 30 2006, 09:53 PM)
Second Ottoman Jihad? Woa! Never heard of that before. Sounds random.

It was inserted into canon by the Germans back in 1992 (1994 for the English translation), and is yet one of the more retarded things that book added into the SR canon without having any regard for logic or consistency. It (the German sourcebook) also began the trend of Europe being so much better than the rest of the world, but I digress. It's stupid shit that should be, but cannot by canon whores, be ignored.

QUOTE (Jarl)
I might do that. Still, the book is five years old, and with the way SR and RL has diverged, I'm not certain I want to stick to SR canon all the way. I like my dystopian near-future to be influenced by actual events in the world as well as the crazy stuff.

Well, there are a lot of aspects of the pre-2000 SR history that influenced what happened later, and how it was allowed to come to pass - many parts which have been retconned by later book (in most cases defeating the whole point of the dark future, but what the fuck do I know?). The fact that the government disengaged from the world in the 1990s as well as the shredding of the federal government and the military (the defense budget was reduced by 40% by the end of the decade) left the U.S. focused entirely on its own borders, dealing with its own problems (increased crime, the NYC food riots that led to the Seretech Decision, etc.) so that when catastrophes began to occur in the first decade (NYC earthquake, VITAS, Lone Eagle), the government was unable to handle them - let alone give a fuck what was happening in the rest of the world.

The first event that the U.S. was concerned with globally was the EuroWars (ignoring VITAS and the Crash of '29), and it's interest there was solely to betray its duties to NATO (hell, betraying the very purpose of NATO) by pulling out the remaining military units while the Europeans and Russians killed each other.

QUOTE
I caught a line somewhere on the boards about DS not being very tolerant to non-canon, though... We'll see...


Eh. Part of the problem is that there is plenty of contradictory information, especially recently where the setting has actually been painted to be nicer than it was (as opposed to the setting where, as Kage has mentioned twice in the last couple of weeks, there are gangs based in downtown Seattle that hunt cops). But mostly it's people thinking they know better, which is arrogant and most often just wrong.
mfb
have i mentioned how much it irks me that there have been two massive, heavily-armed Islamic armies in SR that have both completely ignored Israel? i mean, what the hell, man?
SL James
Quiet, you!
Trax
There's a news article out recently where a Cleric calls Shi'ite Muslims Infidels. That's not good..

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L29791215.htm
mfb
i'm sure they just haven't yet heard that Saddam is dead. once they do, all will be well and good, and the land will be at peace. let the healing begin.
Draug
QUOTE (ErrosCallidus)
First of all suicide bombings are NOT limited to the Shia, it depends more on a particular Imam's politics and personal feelings than on sect.

OK, I'll agree on that. However, Shia Islam's history and dogmas lends itself better to suicide bombers, since it – at least to some extent, I'm no true expert – embraces fatalism. I shouldn't have set up the Shia like that though, sorry.

QUOTE (ErrosCallidus)
As to Islam failing here anytime soon, it would take A LOT more than one leader being discredited for that to happen. It's not so much a 'religion' as we understand in the west as a way of life. Intertwined through every aspect of dailiy living. more realistic would be a surge of "new" sects in Islam based on the differing reactions to magic/corps/etc. and their resultant interaction. Mullah Omar and the Taliban have been "dethroned" and discredited, but Islam itself is still very much alive in Afghanistan today.

With magic showing up, the guy resurrecting like Jesus, and then turning out to be in the control of what could easily be seen as one of the Devil's agents, if not Satan himself? I think something like that could do a lot against a religion. Still, yeah, your point is valid, and people have a tendency to ignore or justify facts that don't suit them.

New factions of Islam would be cool.

QUOTE (ErrosCallidus)
For corps you've basically recapped what the west has been TRYING to do since the crusades, through to the British Mandate and on up to now. why should it work any differently in 2070? Sure surveillance tech may have improved, but so have counter surveillence techs and today's insurgents have showed a sophisticated use of technology of their own. So I'm not sure that the corps could realistically be said to be winning this time. An interesting thing would be the formation of "hilal/Islamic" corps who would then be trying to break into the western far eastern markets and the resulting corporate warfare.

Corps will do things the US is currently incapable of doing. Phoenix Program style training, paid assassinations, setting cultural and religious factions up against each other, heavy use of mercenaries, raiding and shooting civilians, putting up actual walls, directly invade people's privacy, and so on. They won't win, but they'll do a lot better than the US is doing in Iraq.

QUOTE (ErrosCallidus)
The last time the Middle East united significantly in RL was back in Salah Al-din's time with the massive threat of foreign invasion. Something could do that in SR world, but it would have to be BIG to get everybody working together.

Like that Ibn Isa fellow. He died, though, and the Sixth World doesn't strike me as a world for great warlords such as Saladin. Also, unless there is a vast external threat, there's just no way they're going to go together, and as far as I know, there is no large crusader-style threat around.

Side question: Is Aden a Muslim?

QUOTE (ErrosCallidus)
For a real mess Both Muslim corps and sects would develop simultaneously with just as many reasons for attacking each other as working together... could have real "fun" with that. Then throw in traditional family honor and filial ties to make a really screwed up mess where the only link between two disparate orgs is by blood. No paper, no money connections to track just a marriage or two here and there.

Well, with the canonical death of Ibn Isa, the region's ripe for a new collapse.

QUOTE (SL James)
It was inserted into canon by the Germans back in 1992 (1994 for the English translation), and is yet one of the more retarded things that book added into the SR canon without having any regard for logic or consistency...

OK, I'll keep that in mind. nyahnyah.gif

Roger on the SR vs RL stuff. I'll have to look into it more, I suppose.

QUOTE (SL James)
Eh. Part of the problem is that there is plenty of contradictory information, especially recently where the setting has actually been painted to be nicer than it was (as opposed to the setting where, as Kage has mentioned twice in the last couple of weeks, there are gangs based in downtown Seattle that hunt cops). But mostly it's people thinking they know better, which is arrogant and most often just wrong.

OK, I feel a little safer then. It's a fictional universe anyway. A few slightly alternative storylines or pieces of info can't hurt that much.

QUOTE (mfb)
have i mentioned how much it irks me that there have been two massive, heavily-armed Islamic armies in SR that have both completely ignored Israel? i mean, what the hell, man?

What the hell indeed. What armies are these?

QUOTE (Trax)
There's a news article out recently where a Cleric calls Shi'ite Muslims Infidels. That's not good..

Damn. That's going to get a follow-up reaction. Let's see if it's a BOOM or not. Though if it's on a web-site, maybe it doesn't reach the Shi'ite on street level in Saudi. Which is the majority of them, as far as I know.
SL James
I'm sure that in the almost 1,500 years of conflict between the Shi'a and Sunnis that they've both called each other infidels more than a couple of times.

And that's not even getting into their respective stances on other minor sects, like the Assads in Syria, who many don't even consider Muslim.
Charon
QUOTE (mfb)
have i mentioned how much it irks me that there have been two massive, heavily-armed Islamic armies in SR that have both completely ignored Israel? i mean, what the hell, man?

With the exception of very unpleasant people, few authors would care to write about the end of Israel, even if it's just a fiction in a fantasy world.



mfb
yeah. can't have bad things happen in a cyberpunk setting. isn't not writing something because you don't want to be perceived as anti-semitic in and of itself a discriminatory act?
Charon
QUOTE (mfb @ Dec 31 2006, 02:06 AM)
yeah. can't have bad things happen in a cyberpunk setting.

Not to the chosen people.

In fact, not that much religion overall is directly involved in Threats and various SR catastrophe.

Safer to write about racism than religion, you see. Unless said religion is a long dead Aztec blood sacrifice ritual or a wacky new age craze. Then it's okay.
mfb
lemme clarify that i think you're correct. i just think it's stupid that people feel that way. hey, let's deal with racial/religious discrimination by discriminating further!
SL James
QUOTE (Charon @ Dec 31 2006, 01:02 AM)
QUOTE (mfb @ Dec 31 2006, 01:05 AM)
have i mentioned how much it irks me that there have been two massive, heavily-armed Islamic armies in SR that have both completely ignored Israel? i mean, what the hell, man?

With the exception of very unpleasant people, few authors would care to write about the end of Israel, even if it's just a fiction in a fantasy world.

I would.

Of course, I would also have had Armenia and Azerbaijan going to war with each other and Turkestan be nonexistant, which shows you how pleased I am with SoA.

QUOTE (Charon)
Safer to write about racism than religion, you see.

Yes, because that's been handled so well. Even the attempt to make a huge deal about racism in CFS (not that there isn't a ton of racism and racists in California - 34 million people is a lot of everything), it was done at the expense of, well, the Japanese. Even when they have, racism - which seems to be limited to the former US and Japan in SR - has been addressed by painting an entire nation as the most evilly racist bunch of degenerates on the planet. Yeah, bang-up job there. Meanwhile, in the last five years (RL), as the rest of the world is covered, everyone else has gotten a pass so that the only racism that ever seemed to occur happened when better authors controlled the line and meant for it to be a big enough deal to instigate the Night of Rage and its fallout. Instead, everyone loves metas and metas love everyone except Japan pre-2061, Switzerland, and the ruling classes of the Tirs, plus the CAS before it was entirely retconned in SONA.

That's not at all making things so much worse. Worse is making racism seem fringe. Worse is suggesting that 50-60 years of elves and dwarves, magic, and 40-50 years of trolls and orks has left most of the world willing to accept them and live with them in spite of all the horrible things magic has done (without any corresponding good done at all by magic) and metas have done (remember, the Sear Tower bombing was originally blamed on metas and magicians). So there are more of them. I'm sure that makes things better, and not wor... Oh, right. No, that tends to make thing much worse.
Draug
So, now that the line's (sort of) starting up again, let's hope for more religious and racist stuff, yes? I mean, it's not like it's going to represent FanPro or the authors' viewpoints. I hate it when companies and authors become afraid of upsetting someone.

I think they should do two books on Asia, much like they do on America. One for the east, one for the west.

SL James
It took 16 years to get a book that included Japan. I wouldn't hold my breath.
Draug
Fan production then, maybe? Or would that make FanPro hate us?
Slump
Fanpro already hates us. Or, at least, that's what impression I get from a number of threads here.
Draug
What, they do? I thought there were FanPro freelancers posting here...

Anyway, anyone up for drumming up something on the Middle East?
mfb
QUOTE (SL James)
It took 16 years to get a book that included Japan. I wouldn't hold my breath.

now that's just not true.
Draug
QUOTE
A major problem.  This supplement denies the concept of "Japan Imperial
State."  According to the book, the Japanese government has no power, and
the country is divided into numerous megacorps.  One city is controled by
a megacorp.  Armed force has been dissolved.

Now I see what SLJ means about diverging canon...
knasser
QUOTE (Slump)
Fanpro already hates us. Or, at least, that's what impression I get from a number of threads here.


They do? Why?
Demonseed Elite
QUOTE
That's what I meant. In SR terms, it's pretty much inconsequential. The one thing that has kept every physical aspect of rebuilding ground to a halt has been politics. Yet somehow that shit moves at warp speed in SR until it's convenient for it not to.


Because, honestly, political unaction is pretty damn boring. Shadowrun players like things to happen and tend to get really bored of plotlines that stagnate.

We certainly could have dragged out the Renraku Arcology thing for another few decades, but then it just becomes a boring side note. I'm personally of the opinion that major shake-ups happen too frequently in the SR timeline, but I imagine it continues because sales of the game depend on it.

QUOTE
With the exception of very unpleasant people, few authors would care to write about the end of Israel, even if it's just a fiction in a fantasy world.


Honestly, that's probably not even a decision the writers ever got to make. Wiping out a nation would be something Rob would most definitely have to approve of. And if Rob says, "I want Israel in the book", Israel is in the book. Period.

If anything, the writer then needs to come up with a way for it to have survived.

QUOTE
So, now that the line's (sort of) starting up again, let's hope for more religious and racist stuff, yes? I mean, it's not like it's going to represent FanPro or the authors' viewpoints. I hate it when companies and authors become afraid of upsetting someone.


Well, you've definitely never seen our contracts, that's for sure. Not saying you won't see some darker material, but we're certainly not free of responsibility for what we write. Quite the opposite.
Charon
QUOTE (Demonseed Elite @ Dec 31 2006, 09:11 AM)
Honestly, that's probably not even a decision the writers ever got to make. Wiping out a nation would be something Rob would most definitely have to approve of. And if Rob says, "I want Israel in the book", Israel is in the book. Period.

If anything, the writer then needs to come up with a way for it to have survived.

Authors, editors, line designer or whatever.

Somewhere in that line there are obviously people who shied away from delving too much into religious issues, is all I'm saying. SR is surprisingly light on religious conflict when you consider the potential.

Which probably makes sense from a sale POV.

But I would have liked more conflict on that front.
Demonseed Elite
QUOTE (Charon)
Somewhere in that line there are obviously people who shied away from delving too much into religious issues, is all I'm saying. SR is surprisingly light on religious conflict when you consider the potential.

I'm not sure that has anything to do with Israel existing in 2070 or not. It's a pretty big assumption to make.

As for religious conflict, well, I dunno. Religion has really never been too big of a topic in Shadowrun. Since the game's creation. If anything, information on religion in Shadowrun became more significant with the recent batch of authors.
eidolon
QUOTE (knasser)
QUOTE (Slump @ Dec 31 2006, 08:46 AM)
Fanpro already hates us.  Or, at least, that's what impression I get from a number of threads here.


They do? Why?

I'm curious about that too. I'm not officially affiliated or anything, but that disclaimer aside I hardly know where one would garner that impression. Care to elaborate?
Charon
QUOTE (Demonseed Elite @ Dec 31 2006, 03:06 PM)
QUOTE (Charon @ Dec 31 2006, 01:56 PM)
Somewhere in that line there are obviously people who shied away from delving too much into religious issues, is all I'm saying.  SR is surprisingly light on religious conflict when you consider the potential.

I'm not sure that has anything to do with Israel existing in 2070 or not. It's a pretty big assumption to make.

It's not so much about existing or not. It's about one of the defining conflicts of the past 60 years that dominated so much of the foreign policy fading in the background without resolution in the following 60 years. When that conflict has started involving a lot of religion in the last 25 years or so. And when in SR magic suddenly comes back, vindicating a lot of those beliefs.

I don't really see that happening.

Religion in shadowrun is used like folklore. A way to add color. It rarely seems to drive or influence anything unless it's a harmless (to us player) religion. Almost none of the powerbroker in this world act from a belief that God, Allah or Yaveh wills it. The great spirit in the sky? Sometime. Centuries dead religion? Sure. But the really probable ones? Nope. There was that Ibn guy who seemed about to change the thread... and then he dies and there's not much fallback in the usual campaign's setting.

We never get more than timid nod in the background of main events that, maybe, religion could lead to bad things. But never a full blown threat. No, no, no. Too hot a subject.

---

If magic came back and you're a man of deep faith, what do you assume? If you awaken as a mage, you'll assign it to your God. You work miracle in his glory. Hey, the Shaman really believe in spirits and totems. Is that any weirder? What about the fact that the unfaithful are wielding magic too? It has to be the work of the devil. Or at best they are misusing God's gift. And this throw you in a spiral of confrontation where the conflict keeps escalating.

Somehow in SR, almost all religious authorities decided to treat magic like science. It's a tool. It's not miracle. It doesn't come from God.

At last, a proof of supernatural exists after centuries of yielding every explanations of how the world works to scientists. But hey, let's also concede magic to them.

Bull. Shit.

If you are a devout christian and see scary magic and demons everywhere, opposed by the handful of courageous christian holy men who appear to be summoning angels (remember that your tradition influence the appearance of your magc), what will you believe? It's all just magic, and it's good or bad depending on the user?

Hell no. You think it's judgement day.

The whole Ghost Dance thing is deeply religious. Why could a handful of thousands of native americans who remembered dead religious practices have more impact on the world than, say, the 25 million catholics in the world who are the most hardcore about their beliefs out of the billion or so in the world?

We all realize that there aren't more than a handful of amerindians today, and fewer who keep their ancestral spirituality alive. But there are hundred of millions of fanatics from any of the major religion all around the world. Who do you think is going to have the most impact once their crazy beliefs is suddenly supported by real mystical power? And how in hell are you going to convince these guys that magic is the same for everyone, that it isn't God's weapon to fight the infidels?

Holy wars ought to have been the central part of the first 30 years of conflict in SR timeline and at best you could say that things have settled down in a ugly and tense truce by the time game play begins.

Would Israel disappear with the implosion of the old US, submerged by a horde of hostile Islam nation? Perhaps, perhaps not. But what's damn sure if that the conflict would have gotten far worse. When you lose your main backer and that the new generation of terrorists include mages who summons great form spirit (probably in the appearance of a jinn) and order it to massacre civilian in a crowded mall, the conflict has just take a turn for the worse. You can't just have that fade in the background, it's major. Either the country is overrrun or they do something very drastic to survive.
Kerris
I'd like to note that Shadowrun was created in the 80's. Many religious people were opposed roleplaying games to begin with. If the Shadowrun creators painted any religion in a bad light, it may have had more repercussions in terms of the how games were (and are) viewed. Yes, it would make more sense to include religious conflicts in the Shadowrun world, but in out-of-game terms, it probably made a lot of sense to leave it out. It may very well have been a marketing decision.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (Kesslan)
I mean seriously. Just think for a moment. How fresh, in your mind, are the actions and reprocussions of 9/11?

To me, to this day I can still remember what I was doing and when, when the teachers assistant rushed into the classrooom to tell everyone about the news. And how we all halted our work to go watch the television in the workshop.

I still vividly remember that pit in my stomach and mentioning to one of my friends how much that evet. Not the deaths, but the act itself, was going to change everything in our world.

It effectively has.

...i still have vivid memories of that morning,

I turned on the telly (CNN Headline News) and started making breakfast. It was a Monday Morning. The Packers had dominated the hapless Detroit Lions in their home opener on Sunday & it looked like a good season ahead.

Glancing at the Telly I saw the image of at the first tower smoking and wondered if it was some trailer for a new disaster film being released (it was the right time of the hour for their Hollywood Minute segment). Then the second plane hit the south tower [live] and & I realised this was for real.

That day at work was very subdued to say the least

...I also remember the day JFK was assassinated

I was in school and we were watching a "You Are There" film narrated by Walter Cronkite. (for all who are not familiar, You Are There was a series of educational films that re-created various moments in History)

The story was Washington at Valley Forge

About ten minutes into the film a school wide announcement was made that President Kennedy had been shot at during his motorcade in Dallas.

We had a moment of prayer (it was a parochial school) and then the teacher continued with the rest of the film. As she was rewinding the film afterwards, another announcement came was made that the President had died and school was being dismissed.

It was a bright sunny day.

Up until then, the big news stories were the Civil Rights movement, the "Space Race", The Nuclear Test Ban Treaty, the Election of Pope Paul the VI and the increasing involvement in Vietnam...

...and four long hared lads from Liverpool were about to set the music world on it's proverbial ear.

Some things, you just do not forget....
Demonseed Elite
QUOTE (Charon)
Holy wars ought to have been the central part of the first 30 years of conflict in SR timeline and at best you could say that things have settled down in a ugly and tense truce by the time game play begins.

But they weren't. For whatever reason--and that decision predates any of the authors posting here--the creators of Shadowrun didn't want to go that route. It could have been a marketing decision, like Kerris said, or it could have been a matter of personal taste. Cyberpunk of the 80s and 90s was never terribly interested in religion.

If you take a look at the early Shadowrun books, established religion is deliberately pushed aside in favor of revived dead religions or entirely made-up religions. Traditional Native American spiritualism gets most of the attention in the early Shadowrun books, but you also have Catholicism pushed out of Aztlan in favor of revived Aztec religion and a largely made-up Path of the Wheel in Tir na Nog.

Heck, if you want to get too much into it, there are comments in the Aztlan sourcebook that seem to say that the immortals have intentionally tried to weaken established religions.
Charon
QUOTE (Demonseed Elite)
But they weren't. For whatever reason--and that decision predates any of the authors posting here--the creators of Shadowrun didn't want to go that route.

Well, yes. That's what I've been saying.

I'd like more realistic religious conflicts in the future.
knasser

I was playing Shadowrun when it first came out, and reading the original novels. I honestly think the issue of religion was just something that the original designers didn't give much thought to. The game was set in North America and there wasn't anything much on the Middle East so they didn't bother thinking about Islam much (despite the fact that muslims can actually be found places that don't have camels ; ), and the whole ethos of the near future was a corporation run dystopia. Religious conflict can be dystopian, but I think they were more interested in souless oppression than anything else. It was the outcasts versus the megacorps. The megacorps don't fit with religion very well so adding another big bad of prejudice and hatred would have just mudied the waters. It was a young product and it didn't have the level of detail that the setting does over ten years later. If you want an example that everything wasn't thought out in great logical detail, you can consider how native americans suddenly populated a majority of the North American land mass.

I have no inside knowledge that there weren't design decisions, but it just doesn't seem that it was that organised to my recollection.

-K.
mfb
yeah, but... i mean, if they didn't want religious conflict, they probably shouldn't have had a gigantic Islamic army rampage through Europe. it's like of the possible choices, they chose the silliest: a strong, aggressive, unified Islamic front that ignores Israel in favor of freakin' Greece. i agree that it probably wasn't a conscious decision, just something that evolved through the accumulation of minor points made by various freelancers over the years. it's just that the end result is so crazy it hurts.
Kyoto Kid
...though it didn't involve the Middle East (directly), my previous campaign focused on the ethnic conflict between the Serbs and Croats. In preparation, I spent a good deal of time involved RL historical research form the 1930s through the breakup of Yugoslavia and the 1990s wars.

The campaign also introduced a new and twisted style of "Ethnic Cleansing" which for spoiler reasons, I cannot detail.

Ethnic conflicts can be every bit as nasty, if not worse in some cases, than religious ones.
SL James
QUOTE (mfb)
yeah, but... i mean, if they didn't want religious conflict, they probably shouldn't have had a gigantic Islamic army rampage through Europe. it's like of the possible choices, they chose the silliest: a strong, aggressive, unified Islamic front that ignores Israel in favor of freakin' Greece. i agree that it probably wasn't a conscious decision, just something that evolved through the accumulation of minor points made by various freelancers over the years. it's just that the end result is so crazy it hurts.

Or it was some mainstream authors (albeit British) referring to Israel's continued existence in TNO at the same time the Germans were rewriting SR's backstory.

QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)
...though it didn't involve the Middle East (directly), my previous campaign focused on the ethnic conflict between the Serbs and Croats.  In preparation, I spent a good deal of time involved RL historical research form the 1930s through the breakup of Yugoslavia and the 1990s wars.

1930?! What, you didn't go back to the conflicts in the 1300s, let alone the original Ottoman jihad?

Slacker.
FrankTrollman
QUOTE
The whole Ghost Dance thing is deeply religious. Why could a handful of thousands of native americans who remembered dead religious practices have more impact on the world than, say, the 25 million catholics in the world who are the most hardcore about their beliefs out of the billion or so in the world?


Because as soon as people can talk to the Great Buffalo Spirit there are 200 million "Native Americans" the next day, that's why. I am White. I'm a Jew. Most of my forebears are from around Poland. There are reasons that my family lives in North America now instead of Europe, and those reasons are pretty old now.

But I could claim tribal membership. It wouldn't be recognized by the BIA, and I don't really care enough to do it, but I could. There are a lot of people in my situation in the United States, Canada, and Mexico. People who could decide to be tribal but don't because the tribes don't really offer anything. They lost. And despite the advances made by AIM, they are still losing today.

---

I've never been to Gdansk or Kemnitz. I didn't conquer any lands for the Queen of Austria. There's no real connection between me and Eastern Europe, just as there's no particular connection between me and the Lakhota (although frankly, I know more people who do identify as Lakhota). Nevertheless, my essentially fictional connection to Europe is culturally useful to me living in the United States. Being an Eastern European Jew is a category that people understand and respect. It has meaning to people and gives me something to talk about that doesn't inspire pity or argument.

But imagine: imagine for the moment that some great prophet comes out with powerful magics that work. He raises the White Buffalo on high and he can change the weather and speak in dreams. Suddenly, I don't get shit for being Polish. Comparatively speaking, I'd be way better off claiming my connection to the Lakhota people. So I'd do it.

I mean, in a very real way it would be bullshit. But so's my "Jewishness", my "Whiteness" - those are just labels that don't mean anything either. They are just things I say about myself to get introductions out of he way. I never chopped my penis up in a barbaric desert ritual in Canaan. I never hearded goats or dug for radishes in the Black Forest. Essentially, every label about me is made up bullshit right now. Being a edskin instead wouldn't be any more of a lie than my personal identity is now - but it just might get me in touch with Coyote and allow me to change the weather with my mind.

How many people would look at that equation and cling to their European "heritage"? How many people would actually turn aside from a chance to be a fucking Jedi in exchange for being able to continue to pretend that the movements of a bunch of dead Picts with no saleable skills meant something about their lives today?

Being an Indian doesn't make you not an American. Quite the opposite. If you are an American, being an Indian is a perfectly valid identity to have. And if it looked like it might be the only way to summon the forces of nature you'd do it. I'd do it. Your mom would do it. And at that point, if you didn't do it, where would that leave your "heritage"?

Given the history, I don't understand why the UCAS and CAS even exist. People in Milwaukee would all be Indians because there's no reason for them not to be. White people, Black people, Asian people, that's all just labels They don't mean anything - and all those people would be Indians as soon as it seemed adavantageous to do so.

-Frank
Glyph
I think the SR backstory isn't something that can really withstand logical scrutiny. It's a continuous series of big events orchestrated to go with new sourcebooks. Like most distopias or alternate futures, it is a mix of implausible events and caricatures of current trends.

I mean, you have things like the U.S. turning into the equivalent of nazi Germany and rounding up American Indians to put them into death camps. Then you have those American Indians somehow fighting the rest of the U.S. to a standstill and getting over half of the country ceded to them. And stuff like that is in the main setting. Outside of the U.S., it gets even more ridiculous. Hey, let's make Japan an imperialistic state again and have them improbably regress to the level they were at during WWII. Let's have Ireland turn into an elf nazi state. Let's have an entire nation of ghouls somewhere in Africa. NONE of it makes much sense.



As far as the awakening goes, though, I take the opposite view of Charon. If magic returns, and demonstrates common properties no matter who uses it, I do see most Christians (in Western democracies, at least) accepting it as a nonreligious phenomenon, except for a some of the more radical fundies, charismatic sects, and the small, oddball cults.

My problem is with how readily most other religions seem to accept SR magic and incorporate it into their beliefs, even though SR magic is completely different than what most "magic"-practicing religions would consider it to be.

I think I've used this example before, but imagine you're a Wiccan, pre-awakening. You are spiritually mature and very educated about your beliefs. Your friend Cindy, though, sad to say, is a poser. She is a Wiccan because it's hip and trendy, and drives her parents crazy. She constantly displays her utter ignorance about what Wicca is really about, but suddenly the awakening hits. Hey presto, Cindy can suddenly cast spells and conjure spirits! You? Nope. So... are you likely to accept that this "magic" is related to your religion, or are you likelier to think that it's something else?



To bring it back to the Middle East, I think it would be interesting to speculate on how it could turn out. Right now, Islamo-fascist states are ruled by despots fueled by oil revenues. They keep themselves viable as the lesser of two evils by crushing all potential opposition other than the fundies. What would happen if oil became more depleted, and less important? What would happen if the awakening allowed non-fundie sects to make gains in power at the expense of the fundies? What would happen if a regime's propoganda had to compete with corporate propoganda? There are all kinds of fascinating "what-ifs", but they seem to have mostly been ignored. But there's all kinds of potential for a creative GM.
Demonseed Elite
QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Dec 31 2006, 06:23 PM)
Because as soon as people can talk to the Great Buffalo Spirit there are 200 million "Native Americans" the next day, that's why. I am White. I'm a Jew. Most of my forebears are from around Poland. There are reasons that my family lives in North America now instead of Europe, and those reasons are pretty old now.

But I could claim tribal membership. It wouldn't be recognized by the BIA, and I don't really care enough to do it, but I could. There are a lot of people in my situation in the United States, Canada, and Mexico. People who could decide to be tribal but don't because the tribes don't really offer anything. They lost. And despite the advances made by AIM, they are still losing today.

Exactly.

I spent two years in college living in my university's Native American Residential Program House and one thing I certainly learned was that some tribal nations are extremely easy to claim membership in.

Hell, the guy who lived next door to me my freshman year is about 1/64th Mohawk and was from Long Island but now claims membership in the Mohawk Nation. You can be sure there'd be many more like him when the Ghost Dance starts whipping up.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (SL James)
1930?! What, you didn't go back to the conflicts in the 1300s, let alone the original Ottoman jihad?

Slacker.

...more like "50 hour a week Day Job managing my firm's most important client account" at the time.

[4 pt flaw]

Just needed a few more recent details to develop the backstory and timeline since detailed info on the Balkans was left out of SoE in the final edit.

Being ethnically related to the region I am well aware of how deep seeded the feelings are. I also grew up in a city which had a large Serbo-Croatian community. One of the major community centres on the"south side" where we lived was known as Serb Memorial Hall.
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