Source

I'm gonna say a Johnson hired this guy to intercept a raid for some particularly useful data, but some plain clothes stuck their noses in. Now he's brought unnessecery attention to the run and the Johnson doesn't want the data anymore, because it's been noticed in the media. The street sam has to find some way to launder the data, or sell it to his enemies if he expects to get paid for the run.


Anyone got anything more feasible, short of a nerd with a sword and some brass balls?

They probably would. In many jurisdictions they don't even look kindly on self defense.

In SR, there are some options. If you mage sees some Lone Star types hard pressed by whoever, send a spirit to use confusion and fear on the other guys. Or the mage could use magic directly. Just make sure you have Cleansing or that other metamagic that allows one to change their astral signature. Mundanes could fire a couple of aimed shots and run, enough to do a little damage but mostly as a distraction.

Lone Star would have shot everyone, and then shot the corpses... just to be sure.

That degree of 'self defence' its really hard to say. Since in this instance he wasnt defending himself, but some one else.

It's really abit of a legal grey area. The problem is in many areas there is self defence and then 'excessive force' in defending yourself. But 'excessive force' isnt really defined. It's generally accepted that if some one is trying to actively kill you and you 'accidentally' kill them it's ok. Technically speaking. In practice often you still wind up on charges (even if your never convicted) of manslaughter. Because then people ask "Well ddi you -really- have to kill them to stop them from killing you?"

I'll admit when it comes to self defence I'm very much an 'eye for an eye' type person. If I feel some one is trying to kill me. I will do my best to defend myself right up to probably killing said person. And before you say 'you dont really know what your talking about'. I unfortunately do. Never been shot at so far. But I've had at least one person try to kill me for some reason or other. And quite a few folk over the years have attacked me in general. I'd much rather have been left alone but that wasnt exactly a choice I was given.

So on the matter of 'simple' fist fights. Long as there isnt any 'life threatning injury' if your defending yourself, or another person. Your totally fine at least in the province I live in.

If you get jumped and you pull a knife though? Bit more iffy. You'll at the very least face some hard questions as to why you pulled a knife when the other guys didnt. But then it comes down to proving whta their intentions were. Afterall there's been a few beating deaths around here over the years. And more than a few stabbings.

The sword wielding thing is... I dunno thats hard to say. Around here he might actually be rewarded or at least congradulated for such action. At most, maybe a mild rebuke and confiscation of the sword. Afterall it's generally assumed that if you attack some one with a weapon, especially things like knives. You intend, not to harm but to kill that person. At that point almost anything goes when it comes to self defence... technically.

Theres... again just no easy answer. At the lower levels there's abit of an eye for an eye philosophy behind it but when you get up to things like murder and stopping a murderer. Well you just lock em up for life. There's no executions in this country dispite how ever many people a person may have sadistially murdered themselves. I dont necessarily agree with that myself. But that is how the world works currently. At least in my little part of it.

Unnecessary. Besides, I think you meant drop a gun.

Yeah. Canada is funny that way. There was some big fuss made in the newspapers here locally this past summer. This one goth type kid was wearing a belt made of disarmed rifle rounds (You know the ones that are either fake, or drilled out). And some moron freaked and called the cops claiming he had all sorts of weapons on him and stuff.

So here he is downtown being approaced by a squad of cops expecting an armed person with a machinegun kinda deal and he just chats em up. Actually concented to a search and let them take the belt. Even though the belt itself is 100% legal to have and own by anyone in Canada. Hell he probably bought it a few blocks away from where he was stopped.

But then when it comes to knives things get a little more iffy. Technically your not supposed to have a knife with a blade over 6 inches long. But their abit more forgiving of that. However if your being searched by police for any reason and you dont tell them you have a pocket knife. They can. Though they wont usually charge you with posession of a concealed weapon. Never mind that it's perfectly legal to have a pocket knife so long as your not actively trying to stab some one with it.

And then legaly your technically allowed to use 'equal force' in self defence. If so if some one attacks you with a baseball bat it's perfectly fine for you to pick up a lead pipe and bash him in the head.... technically.

The reality is even more muddled. And then when it comes to defending others... gah. It gets EVEN MORE Muddled. Technically you fall under the 'self defence' catagory as your defending some one else's life. An act the law doesnt require of you but it's technically encouraged by society and in the defence of another you also have to of course defend yourself thus why the self defence laws supposedly apply.

And then there's yet another difference if your a lisenced security guard thats on duty. Hell even if your off duty and they find out your a lisenced guard they'll be abit more leniant with you (Afterall the cops really do benifit by your presence. Since you get all the small crap to deal with so they dont)

And with security theres really.. yet more shades of grey. If your contracted security for example you've got some wierd restrictions. If your 'in house' security IE you work for the owner of the property your patroling. In the case of a store for this to qualify the store actually MUST own the building their in as well. If their renting you fall under contracted security. In such a situation your apparently by law allowed (Around here anyway) to carry a baseball bat. Though.. you wont ever see that. It's a funny thing. Your also effectively expected to step in if some oen else is attacked. I remember one place I worked at. Health card office actually, so government building. It was contracted security. But since it was for the goverment 'anything goes' when it went to selfdefence. The semi official line was litterally in the post orders. And I quote 'If some one is being attacked you are encouraged to intereven as if you yourself were being attacked with any means at your disposal'.

Thats litterally a green card for me to say... grab a fire extinquisher off the wall and club the guy over the head with it untill he's unconcious assuming he's so much as throwing a punch at some one. And it would have been legal too.

But not legal if I hadnt been a security guard.

It's really messed up that way.

Yeah. The shooting him to death instead of stabing him to death would be called into question. Actually.. so would stabbing him to death. But not as much as if you'd shot him to death.

Eh still counts as 'excessive force' probably. In Canda at least. It's really messed up. On a 'per person' basis. There's actually just as many guns in Canada as there is in the US.

The difference is Canada is over the top strict on gun laws while many areas in the US are arguably far too lax. Biggest example? In the US you have the same rights far as I know if your a gun owner or not.

In Canda you have less legal rights than a convicted multiple murder. A convicted multiple murderer still has a right to refuse entry and search of his home without a warrant to back it up. If you own a gun in Canada. You give up that right. The police can, at any time, and for any reason enter your home and search it. They usually wont without some reason. But they dont need a warrant to do it when they feel it's necessary as you owning a gun gives them 'probable cause'.

What the hell? Some-one threatens to give you a trouncing and take the 20 bucks in your wallet and you take their life?

Excessive force is nonsense? If for some reason some-one shoves you or makes a threatening comment or gesture, you should be able to beat him within the edge of his life and then maybe kerbstomp him? Maybe I'm oversimplyfying your statement...

But this is oversimplyfying. I sure do hope you teach anyone who looks like a gangster with a prison tattoo a lesson if they look at you sideways the lesson of their life. I bet they're nazis aswell huh? Trying to roll you for money for drugs too!

Yep, just like a fun vacation. Absolutely. No doubt about it.

~J

I did say force enough to make them stop or run away. If they threaten, you can pull on them and if they run, fine. A mere trouncing can be very damaging in itself and personally, I prefer avoiding injury.

Do you shoot someone for an insult or a push? No. That really isn't even worth bothering with. That is something you walk away from. If, however, they escalate it into an assault while you are trying to get away, that's another matter.


Teach a person a lesson for how they dress or have tattoos? That's a silly thing to say. There are more than a few people like that around here and they aren't a problem. How people look can tell you a lot about them, but it is how they are acting that gives away more. If I see someone acting odd or giving me the eye I do pay more attention to them and work out how to avoid them. Situational awareness and avoiding trouble is also the first option.

But also like I said, this isn't a philosophy forum to debate this matter. It purpose is to discuss a game where characters kill and break things as part of the job description.

How the fuck are they supposed to know what an unjacked chip contains?

I mean... Unless you write "KILL ALL COPS!!! ARRRGHH!" on it in large glowing letters.

Or get a lucky shot and rupture a spleen.

Fixed that for you.

~J

And fixed for you.

aaaaand a division is added to my Lone Star roster

Sure, assuming you let yourself get stabbed instead of wasting him with a well-placed burst with your smartlinked cyber-holstered Ares Predator...