Personally, I don't like the way you can take 9 points of physical and 9 points of stun, have a -6 penalty and be on your feet. More than that, I don't like the way that clubbing someone with a tire iron into unconsciousness will be undamaged in an average of 5 hours.

I'd like to mix the damage types together into one track, like the way they do in the Storyteller games by White Wolf. Here's draft one of my idea:

Everyone gets 10 boxes plus their body. Mark this point. Add your Willpower onto that and you have your entire track. As usual, every 3 full boxes imposes a -1 dice pool penalty.

Most stunning attacks (call them "bashing") do their full damage, but one third of their damage is physical. That is for every 3 full boxes of damage, one is physical, and two are stun. 5 boxes would do 1 physical, 4 stun, 6 would be 2 physical, 4 stun.

Taking a box of stun puts a slash "/" in the box, a box of physical puts an "x" in the box. When you take stun, add it onto the end of the track, on the right. When you take physical, turn a number of slashes into xs equal to the damage taken, and add slashes to the end. For example, if you have 2 Xs and 3 /s, and take 3 P, you turn the 3 /s into Xs and add 3 /s on the end. This means every point of damage adds a box to your total, no matter what type.

If you fill up the first section of your track with a stun, or a combination of stun and physical, you're conscious. Once the first section is completely full of physical, you go unconscious and start bleeding. If the entire track is full of either stun or both types, you go unconscious, but don't bleed unless the first track is entirely physical.

This allows damage to "piggy-back" off eachother, and makes it more useful to do both types. As it is, when you run out of bullets and have to start pistol-whipping your enemy, it's like starting over from scratch (with the obvious exception of their dice pool penalties).

Anyway, that's draft 1. Please, weigh in.

Dread Polack.

I think it's an interesting idea.
Consider: You're making the overall track a lot longer. That means that when comparing simple situations where only one damage type is being used anyway, people are going to take a lot longer to go down.

Also consider: If you feel that part of most stun attacks have a physical damage component, is it possible that part of most physical attacks have some component that is stun? Maybe physical damage should be 1/3 stun, just like stun damage is 1/3 physical.

Another thing that occurs to me: Bashing doesn't have to replace stun, it can be an additional damage type. "Stun" weapons like tasers or drugs could still do 100% stun damage, bashing weapons could do 1/3 physical, and you can even add other types like 1/2, 2/3, or 100% physical. This would definitely let you have more differences between different types of weapons.

I think it's a neat idea, and I think it's probably more realistic. It's going to take more convincing to get me to use it, though. Definitely a good draft 1.

What about magic drain and spell damage?

Bashing someone with a tire iron would be physical damage BTW...that would take days or weeks to heal. The only bludgeoning weapon that does stun is a sap (or unenhanced fists). And not everyone would exactly be on their feet with a -6 penalty. If you have average reaction/intuition, your initiative is 0. Or even if it's above average, your odds of glitching on the intiative roll increased dramatically, and it's not a stretch for the GM to say you're hurting too much to act with the glitch.

IMO, the RAW damage system is brilliant as is. If you're not comfortable with characters healing stun damage so quickly, do the simple solution and increase healing durations.

I find it extemely unlikely that if you were clubbing someone into unconcioussness with a tire iron that you'd be able to exactly get the stun meter to max out without a single point overflowing into physical, so he'd be awake after five hours, but mildly concussed for a day or two (or more, depending on how hardt he hit was) which is fairly likely if we aren't assuming that you crushed his skull and killed him with one hit.

further, with capped dice pools, -6 is a freaking huge penalty. MOST characters (PC and otherwise...) won't have too many maxed out pools to roll with anyway, for an average, well trained person, six dice is all they get to roll! Thus they are essentially helpless at that point.

Stop thinking that Shadowrunners are necessarly superhumans with all their attributes at 6 and all their important skills at 4+ and you'll stop thinking -6 isn't much of a penalty.

I have a bashing track, lethal track, and a stun track.

Stun recovers in minutes unless there is something changing it. Bashing takes hours to days. Lethal takes several days to weeks.

Bashing damage can become lethal by using hit location. Any time you take a penalty you take a point of stun as well. Certain attacks can force a stun check as well if you are hitting someone in the head say. Maxing out your bashing track and going to lethal forces a stun check. Lethal damage that is staged down with normal armor can only reduce the damage to bashing.

Your bashing track is longer then your lethal. Your stun is as well. I don't remember the numbers.

Bleeding would go on the bashing track most of the time. Blunt metal weapons do bashing but usually add +2 to the damage code.

Stun does not wrap into bashing. You can also take bashing but there needs to be a reason for it. Bashing will wrap into lethal. Extra stun will usually just be lost unless there is a special reason. Hitting someone with a stun gun after they are down isn't going to keep them unconscious longer.

You can do a few different things for magic users. What I did was have a different drain track for them. It had a similar effect as stun but the overflow was into essence damage which could temporarily lower your magic rating.

This also means that you can have a stim patch instantly cure your stun damage and not imbalence the game because a stim patch won't effect a drain track.

No, not at all. It's white wolf's damage system expanded out a few more boxes.

Mechwarrior third uses the concept of level of damage, any given hit is rated to a certain level of damage, worth a specific level of injury depending upon location, and a number of points. If teh total points of all your injuries got too high, you dropped, but typically you'd die of a specific wound before you hit that point.

What can you do with a -6 penalty? Well, assuming unaugmented human (since that's everyone's real world basis for comparison) you can't do anything you're not actually trained in, regardless of your natural ability, short of spending edge. Exceptional attribute 7, defaulting penalty -1, 6 dice -6 = longshot.
Okay, so we're looking at ONLY things you're trained in. Not just casual anything stuff, but the things you do. Take an average professional. 3 attribute, 3 skill. Oops, still a longshot. Can't do anything.
It is not until we get to above average attribute combined with veteran level skill (or some comparable combination) that there is any possibility of taking an action.
As Spike pointed out, when dealing with superhuman best-in-the-world computer-enhanced experts, it's easy to forget that -6 is a totally incapacitating penalty for the rest of the world.

That said: I don't like the fact that you can be all shot up and be at a point where, should someone scratch you lightly with a razor blade (inflicting 1 box of physical damage) you will collapse dying, but you can still sustain repeated blows to the face and be tazed (aquiring 9+ boxes of stun damage) and not go down. I find that more than a little odd, and a strong argument for a system such as the one proposed.
Then again, it doesn't exactly keep me up nights. I have a cat for that.

As a card carrying member of PETA(People for the Eating of Tasty Animals), I declare this thread hilarious.

okay here is an interesting question. Why are we modeling stun in the first place. Either a stun gun knocks you out or it doesn't. Wouldn't a better system to be a body test to see if you go out, maybe you just go down and loose a turn instead.

I'm not talking about the rest of the damage system right now. How can we more accurately model stun guns?

Never seen a punch drunk fighter still standing? Never seen someone shake off a hit from somethign that should lay him out and yet keep going... staggered but not broken?

In real life some hits finish you, others don't affect you at all. And then there is the middle where it affects you, but doesn't kill/KO you.

Really, your question could be rephrased: Why are we modeling physical damage anyway? Either a hit kills you or it doesn't? And it's just as accurate and relavent.


Not saying the stun system is perfect but ya have to keep realistic goals in mind...

This all sounds needlessly annoying, though it does vaguely resemble Alternity. I'm torn between my love of Alternity and my kneejerk reaction to clunky annoying rules (imagined violence).

Ah well. I'll just laugh and call it a day.

I too loved alot of Alternity and hated its dice mechanic especially. Too bad.

Shadowdragon I had missed that about the electricity damage. Thanx