Ok, I made this poll based on this thread originally posted by cybertrucker. While many think that the idea is futile, please help him gauge what the most important aspect of Shadowrun is.
I have assumed that the setting - ie 2070, magic, meta-races, dragons, etc. - are part of the conversion no matter what else is done.
Full Version: SR to d20 Conversion
Voted other. 
To me it's the whole thing. The combination of elements, the background, the pseudo-realism.
The mechanics are probably the least important here, but they work well to carry the feel, because they have been built with Shadowrun in mind.
Bye
Thanee
To me it's the whole thing. The combination of elements, the background, the pseudo-realism.
The mechanics are probably the least important here, but they work well to carry the feel, because they have been built with Shadowrun in mind.
Bye
Thanee
I'm in the same camp as Thanee, it's the combination of it all. Though, really the mechanics kinda encompasses/features the magic and deadliness. That the magic isn't just added on, neither is the deadliness.
I agree with thanee. It's a combination.
On the most basic level, you need the magic, cyberware and setting, otherwise it really just isn't Shadowrun. You can change that to a certain degree, but if you change the setting to 3060 and people drive huge mechas to work, I'd argue it's not SR, even if it's in the SR world.
The punk elements, grit and deadliness are all inter-related. Life is cheap and dangerous, things are dark, you're always a small fish. These are all supported by the mechanics. I would argue that SR4 is still Shadowrun because it maintains 90% of the previous Shadowrun universe and, for the most part, preserves the idea that you're never above feeling things are a threat. However, SR4 doesn't use the same mechanics as previous editions (no arguments about whether SR4 really "is" shadowrun please, or at least put it in its own thread).
"D20 Shadowrun" I see as being much harder. D20, at its core, was made with the idea that the PCs are heroes and really better than most other people, and they go do heroic stuff. I don't like it that you can feel "safe" if you have enough hitpoints.
D20 also doesn't support the realism Shadowrun has, because the nature of the mechanics do a poor job of copying ranged combat. Now ultimately, I think you can have a shadowrun game that isn't especially 'realistic', but I see realism as a benefit, and something that should be held onto when possible.
On the most basic level, you need the magic, cyberware and setting, otherwise it really just isn't Shadowrun. You can change that to a certain degree, but if you change the setting to 3060 and people drive huge mechas to work, I'd argue it's not SR, even if it's in the SR world.
The punk elements, grit and deadliness are all inter-related. Life is cheap and dangerous, things are dark, you're always a small fish. These are all supported by the mechanics. I would argue that SR4 is still Shadowrun because it maintains 90% of the previous Shadowrun universe and, for the most part, preserves the idea that you're never above feeling things are a threat. However, SR4 doesn't use the same mechanics as previous editions (no arguments about whether SR4 really "is" shadowrun please, or at least put it in its own thread).
"D20 Shadowrun" I see as being much harder. D20, at its core, was made with the idea that the PCs are heroes and really better than most other people, and they go do heroic stuff. I don't like it that you can feel "safe" if you have enough hitpoints.
D20 also doesn't support the realism Shadowrun has, because the nature of the mechanics do a poor job of copying ranged combat. Now ultimately, I think you can have a shadowrun game that isn't especially 'realistic', but I see realism as a benefit, and something that should be held onto when possible.
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| I don't like it that you can feel "safe" if you have enough hitpoints. |
Nicely put. You should rarely feel safe in Shadowrun. Especially not in a fight. And taking a plunge out of 30 story building on the basis that you might have enough HP to survive it, well that would pretty much kill the game for me personally.
The most important basis is crap 80sness.
Oriental Adventures 1st edition had quite a lot of crap 80sness, so the second pillar of SR is the deadliness/mechanics which allow for a more demanding tactical style of play IMO than does D20 with hitpoints.
Oriental Adventures 1st edition had quite a lot of crap 80sness, so the second pillar of SR is the deadliness/mechanics which allow for a more demanding tactical style of play IMO than does D20 with hitpoints.
I voted mechanics simply because I like the classless, levelless system, and the character advancement. Also, I don't see how any other system could be as realistic as shadowrun. Most other systems assume the characters are some kind of superhero, however, enough people carry this over to shadowrun so you can't always count on that being the case.
characters in shadowrun are often superheroes. That's a problem with the setting not the mechanics.
I've never seen a 'superhero' shadowrun character, even in the game that ran for two years. I did see people who were around the level of Navy SEALS or something similar, where they had an 8 in one or more skills and plenty of very, very cool equipment. But never were they at the point that they didn't fear Lone Star pursuit or getting nabbed by Renraku security.
Adepts = superheroes
admit it! How many X-Men could you create in Shadowrun?!?!
admit it! How many X-Men could you create in Shadowrun?!?!
Umm... None? No one has the super regeneration, super laser-eyes, super psychic powers that the x-men have. I wouldn't categorize them as super heroes any more than I'd categorize Jackie Chan as a super hero.
I think mechanics is what makes the game different. The fluff you can have in any system. D20M with some variants can be made very gritty. However the system is the main different.
D20M uses a Mass Damage systems in wich you can be dropped regardless of how many HPs you have with a single shot from a gun. Now granted at higher level you have a better chance to save against that Mass damage... However you stage the Save DC based on damage taken it will make it even more gritty. Also change the save DCto 20..
As for shadowrun characters being on the level of Navy Seals is very far off. An adept with the right combinations of powers for defense can make himself almost untouchable to a non augmented person. Now granted Cybered people with smartguns and skillwires and reflexes recorders that might not be the case but then we are not talking nomral..
Your average Navy seal out there might have about 9 to 10 dice. I can break 20 dice on defense as a beginning adept, if I stay on defense to get up close your a dead SEAL. and most likely I can keep myself from getting hit by a full team at that. Granted then it starts getting a little harder but without Smartguns and Cyberware. A single Adept would have the ability to take down a team of modern day SEAL (well if he knew where they were all at anyway) granted one lucky shot could also do him in. Ohh ya and grenades could get very nasty
...
But ya heavely wired characters in SR and adepts are on the verge of Superheroes... They do call Adepts Xmen in slang for a reason. I envision the adept we have in the game I am running now moves alot like spiderman without the webbing. The world around him is moving in slow motion when he is on the move.
D20M uses a Mass Damage systems in wich you can be dropped regardless of how many HPs you have with a single shot from a gun. Now granted at higher level you have a better chance to save against that Mass damage... However you stage the Save DC based on damage taken it will make it even more gritty. Also change the save DCto 20..
As for shadowrun characters being on the level of Navy Seals is very far off. An adept with the right combinations of powers for defense can make himself almost untouchable to a non augmented person. Now granted Cybered people with smartguns and skillwires and reflexes recorders that might not be the case but then we are not talking nomral..
Your average Navy seal out there might have about 9 to 10 dice. I can break 20 dice on defense as a beginning adept, if I stay on defense to get up close your a dead SEAL. and most likely I can keep myself from getting hit by a full team at that. Granted then it starts getting a little harder but without Smartguns and Cyberware. A single Adept would have the ability to take down a team of modern day SEAL (well if he knew where they were all at anyway) granted one lucky shot could also do him in. Ohh ya and grenades could get very nasty
...But ya heavely wired characters in SR and adepts are on the verge of Superheroes... They do call Adepts Xmen in slang for a reason. I envision the adept we have in the game I am running now moves alot like spiderman without the webbing. The world around him is moving in slow motion when he is on the move.
| QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0) | ||
Nicely put. You should rarely feel safe in Shadowrun. Especially not in a fight. And taking a plunge out of 30 story building on the basis that you might have enough HP to survive it, well that would pretty much kill the game for me personally. |
My all-time favorite quote related to this comes from page 139 of Shadowrun 2nd Ed.:
"Paranoia is not a problem in Shadowrun. It's a way of life."
Anytime I play or GM a game, I always keep that little gem at the front of my mind. It's that edge-of-the-seat thrill that no matter what you do, how careful you are, whatever, you could at any moment be eliminated/imprisoned/wounded etc.
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