So we were discussing IE's and making them killable by giving them stats. I personally don't think that done properly that stat'ing them up will make them any more killable.
As an exercise I was thinking about what minimums would be necessary to survive the magical interregnum.
I think Magical Stats in the 24-30 range would be sufficient and could be achieved with 2500-3000 karma.
So then I'm thinking, making up that sort of character should be interesting.
So here's the idea, a rogue's gallery of 'Low-end' survivors of the Fourth World.
I'm thinking Karma-gen on 5000 Karma with triple the normal caps on Gear, Spells and Qualities. No Technomancers or AI's obviously and everybody has to have Immunity to Ageing somehow.
I don't think it's is necessary to actually be an IE to have survived so initially this is for just the standard races present in SR.
I also have a seed of an idea for a campaign based around this but it is just that at the moment. I'd like to see what people could come up with first before committing to running that sort of lunacy...
Full Version: Mary-Sue
I will make 2 free spirits one who "is" a rear focus. Perssion in an item or realistic form apreas to be an aritfact of hurge power but is really a spirit. Karma Drain and such to keep him growing plus some of the spirt pacts as the foucs powers. In fact i shall make just that one. I'm using the house rule that for every 6 force after 12 you can take a grater power at 6+pp each.
I might take a crack at this, though I think a 500ish karma character could take pretty much any one of them out on the spot, regardless of how much karma they got.
Feel free to post 'reasonable' custom Metamagics and the like. So long as they are in line with current canon with regard to power-level.
Will do when needed but a lot of intalvls will be used for two times the PPs not metamagics I just wish there was a karam gen sheet for free spirts and the like 
I'll have to do it all by hand.
I'll have to do it all by hand.
That's half the fun though...
Yeah good all maths Really its just that I cba to do one in excel as well.
It only costs 3684 karma for 36 force sure its a lot but my gods its even more than enough with that I have what still 2316 karma left. Putting 1989 of that in to edge should do 
Are you intending to only make the characters and see what they look like, or do you intend to actually run a game based off of these characters here?
... 5000 karma? Oh. my. god. I'M SO IN!!!!!!!1!1!!111!1!
Are you limiting the force for foci and such-like?
I think I'm going to hack out an IE... just for the fun of it.
OR maybe a nosferatu-type... they were around in the fourth age, weren't they?
Are you limiting the force for foci and such-like?
I think I'm going to hack out an IE... just for the fun of it.
OR maybe a nosferatu-type... they were around in the fourth age, weren't they?
QUOTE (fistandantilus4.0 @ Sep 22 2008, 11:18 PM) 
Are you intending to only make the characters and see what they look like, or do you intend to actually run a game based off of these characters here?
Initially, just make the characters but I think if I get some viable builds that a game might be possible.
I've got some campaign ideas already germinating, they just need fleshing out.
A mary sue is defined by having plot/author protection. That's not the same as an (over)powered PC.
And with SR4 character rules, especially the hard caps on skills and stats, it's mighty hard to make an unkillable character. Even a superhigh magic attribute can only carry you so far in a firefight.
Back in the day of SR1/SR2 when I was running a "prime runners" campaign, where after a few years of playing weekly the average karma earned per character was 1000-2000 or more (and awakened characters had initiate grades in the double-digit range, magic reaching 20 before focuses were taken into account), a bunch of cops could still kill/overcome such people, even with 100 karma burned on buying successes.
And with SR4 character rules, especially the hard caps on skills and stats, it's mighty hard to make an unkillable character. Even a superhigh magic attribute can only carry you so far in a firefight.
Back in the day of SR1/SR2 when I was running a "prime runners" campaign, where after a few years of playing weekly the average karma earned per character was 1000-2000 or more (and awakened characters had initiate grades in the double-digit range, magic reaching 20 before focuses were taken into account), a bunch of cops could still kill/overcome such people, even with 100 karma burned on buying successes.
Well, lets test that theory.
I've set the parameters at 5000 karma because I reckon that is a reasonable minimum for having survived from the Fourth World, any less than that and you just couldn't have survived in a Mana-Void.
I don't have any ED experience and don't want to start a flame-war about Matrices so, for the time being, I'd like to try and make do with established SR rules with a few custom Metamagics and Spells.
[edit] Got my warps and voids in a twist, again.
I've set the parameters at 5000 karma because I reckon that is a reasonable minimum for having survived from the Fourth World, any less than that and you just couldn't have survived in a Mana-Void.
I don't have any ED experience and don't want to start a flame-war about Matrices so, for the time being, I'd like to try and make do with established SR rules with a few custom Metamagics and Spells.
[edit] Got my warps and voids in a twist, again.
The true test would be putting one such character against a team of new PCs trying to kill it anyway they can. My money is on the PCs.
As far as surviving, there was some way to become a mentor spirit or something similar in ED, as I recall, and a way to possess a body. So, a hero from Barsaive could have become such a spirit, and then return to the 6th world, and take over - maybe voluntarily, or with a spirit pact - a denizen of Shadowrun. They'd have weathered the mana warp on the meta planes.
Also, matrices are generally weaker than channeling raw mana, and only used to avoid getting the horrors attention, from what I remember. They are of not much use in SR anyway.
As far as surviving, there was some way to become a mentor spirit or something similar in ED, as I recall, and a way to possess a body. So, a hero from Barsaive could have become such a spirit, and then return to the 6th world, and take over - maybe voluntarily, or with a spirit pact - a denizen of Shadowrun. They'd have weathered the mana warp on the meta planes.
Also, matrices are generally weaker than channeling raw mana, and only used to avoid getting the horrors attention, from what I remember. They are of not much use in SR anyway.
Free Spirit is certainly one possibility, although it would have to have stayed on the Metaplanes. You need a (BOD + Mystic Armour) of 40+ to survive in a Mana Void and I imagine it's quite painful.
I suppose Rating 6 Aspected Domain might only drop to Rating 6 Mana Ebb, which would be uncomfortable but survivable.
Infected is another, although less playable, possibility.
Formula Pact is a third possibility that I think might well be a good basis for a 'low power' Fourth Age survivors campaign.
I suppose Rating 6 Aspected Domain might only drop to Rating 6 Mana Ebb, which would be uncomfortable but survivable.
Infected is another, although less playable, possibility.
Formula Pact is a third possibility that I think might well be a good basis for a 'low power' Fourth Age survivors campaign.
QUOTE
Infected is another, although less playable, possibility.
IIRC the infected didn't exist in the 4th age. I'm playing a spirt who was trapped of hid in an item to escape the mana ebb. HE normally acts as if he is a super unique foucs using the spirt pacts to grant power and dream pacts to walk the world 
.
Ignor
So I just had a brainstorm of epic proportions.
Free Spirit Power: Hidden Life
Certainly a way for anyone to have survived from the 4th age... perhaps it could be counted as a spirit pact?
ALSO!!! Is there a limit on force for Foci? I imagine that, with a couple thousand years, one would have plenty of time to design a custom foci of considerable power... even if you weren't able to make it until magic returned.
Free Spirit Power: Hidden Life
Certainly a way for anyone to have survived from the 4th age... perhaps it could be counted as a spirit pact?
ALSO!!! Is there a limit on force for Foci? I imagine that, with a couple thousand years, one would have plenty of time to design a custom foci of considerable power... even if you weren't able to make it until magic returned.
I have to say, a possession mage would rule the school at these levels. Hello Mr. Force 20 spirit, why yes I'm channeling you, is there anything you would like to do today?
Chris
Chris
Possessed mage w/ force 20 spirit < force 30 free spirit.
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Sep 23 2008, 04:09 PM)
Possessed mage w/ force 20 spirit < force 30 free spirit.
possessing a random hobo. I'm taking hidden life as well as uping my metal scores and skill to be good at subverting culkts
I'm surprised that nobody is using the April Fool's Runners Companion rules to create a Dragon. I'm very tempted. 
That is because I for all about those rules.
QUOTE (crizh @ Sep 23 2008, 01:36 AM)
Initially, just make the characters but I think if I get some viable builds that a game might be possible.
I've got some campaign ideas already germinating, they just need fleshing out.
I've got some campaign ideas already germinating, they just need fleshing out.
I ask because if you're not running a game, then I need to move this to the appropriate area (The main Shadowrun thread). If you're running a game with it, I'll leave it here.
And I agree with Fortune; someone needs to make a dragon.
TBH a dragon look more fun than a Free Spirt but i need the ok from the GM fist
Not so sure how balanced the Dragon rules are compared to the races from RC although I seem to recall there were some interesting Metamagics.
I'm not so sure how low powered a full Dragon would be, let me think about it.
I'm not so sure how low powered a full Dragon would be, let me think about it.
For a joke, the Dragon rules are surprisingly close to being balanced at normal chargen levels. At the level you are working with here, I really don't see (m)any problems. They would just need a GM's touch (or logic) to flesh out a few small, unexplained details.
A good fertiliser bomb still takes out any IE or GD in the vicinity.
QUOTE (Fuchs @ Sep 25 2008, 08:23 AM)
A good fertiliser bomb still takes out any IE or GD in the vicinity.
Well one of the points of this is to endeavour to falsify that theory with experiment.
Feel free to join in.
Why? It's a GM call whether or not something survives "truckload of C-12" P dmg.
QUOTE (Fuchs @ Sep 25 2008, 09:22 AM)
Why? It's a GM call whether or not something survives "truckload of C-12" P dmg.
What, you'd make an arbitrary ruling instead of calculating the damage and comparing it to the characters defences?
For shame.
Huh? What I mean is that it comes down to: "Whatever your defenses are, I simply up the amount of explosives until it it is enough to kill them by the rules."
And if that works is a GM call.
And if that works is a GM call.
OK. I've had a bit of time now to fiddle with building a PC on 5000 karma and I'm going to start putting up ground rules.
No Dragons. For the time being, sorry.
No availability cap.
No Nuyen cap. Spend as much as you can afford.
The optional exchange a Metamagic for a Power point on Initiation rule seems reasonable.
Double normal cap on spells and qualities.
Must be Immune to Age or have some other method of having survived.
Custom Metamagics and spells are permitted within reason.
I'm already permitting:
Spirit Link (Advanced, Invoking): Summon a Spirit type your tradition does not normally have access to.
Spirit Flexibility (Advanced, Invoking + Spirit Link): Summon Possession/Materialization Spirits, whichever your tradition does not normally have access to.
(I've forgotten what the other two were, damn...)
No Dragons. For the time being, sorry.
No availability cap.
No Nuyen cap. Spend as much as you can afford.
The optional exchange a Metamagic for a Power point on Initiation rule seems reasonable.
Double normal cap on spells and qualities.
Must be Immune to Age or have some other method of having survived.
Custom Metamagics and spells are permitted within reason.
I'm already permitting:
Spirit Link (Advanced, Invoking): Summon a Spirit type your tradition does not normally have access to.
Spirit Flexibility (Advanced, Invoking + Spirit Link): Summon Possession/Materialization Spirits, whichever your tradition does not normally have access to.
(I've forgotten what the other two were, damn...)
QUOTE (crizh @ Sep 25 2008, 07:44 PM)
No Dragons. For the time being, sorry.
Just out of curiosity, why not?
QUOTE (Fortune @ Sep 25 2008, 11:21 AM)
Just out of curiosity, why not?
I think because part of the point here is to show how powerful such characters are, even at the low end.
If I make up rules for Immortal Elves and allow non-canon rules for Dragons I'm kinda moving away from low-powered towards munchkin cheese.
(Well further into cheese at any rate. I'm already looking at a Mystic Adept here with 9 Power Points, 112 Dice of Spellcasting pool and at least 84 Dice of Drain Pool.)
How about max. logic, max. arcana, and the Divination metamagic? Combined with the first-strike capability of, say, an initiate degree 10 magician? One that invested some money a millenium ago, as opposed to the ineffectual bunch that is actually immortal? (Type 1,04^1000 into your calculator. For starters.)
Anyways:
Logic 6, Arcana 7 (Divination +2), Increase [Logic] spell (not really needed, assume 30+ per Crizh numbers): When will I next be in danger of dying? (Some follow-up questions depending on the plan)
Connection: (Your choice here) military, local Warlord, bunch of free spirits, OR (if it is just runners) Charisma 9, Summoning/Binding 1+
Anyways:
Logic 6, Arcana 7 (Divination +2), Increase [Logic] spell (not really needed, assume 30+ per Crizh numbers): When will I next be in danger of dying? (Some follow-up questions depending on the plan)
Connection: (Your choice here) military, local Warlord, bunch of free spirits, OR (if it is just runners) Charisma 9, Summoning/Binding 1+
How do they protect themselves against a few tons of explosives dropped on them? A DV of a few hundred P is nothing to sneeze at.
QUOTE (Fuchs @ Sep 25 2008, 02:20 PM)
How do they protect themselves against a few tons of explosives dropped on them? A DV of a few hundred P is nothing to sneeze at.
They kill the one who wants to drop the bomb, beforehand.
Baba Yaga
Early Draft, incomplete.
Early Draft, incomplete.
[ Spoiler ]
), Vory
A 6,000+ year old witch and all she has is five rating 3 Knowledge Skills and a just-barely-passable understanding of a few languages? Oh, and even better, a legendary witch who's renowned for her arcane knowledge only has Arcana 4? o.O Yes, you did a great job nailing that character.
I guess this is more of a create-a-twink than create-a-belieavable-4th-world-character game? I'll have to redo my submission if that's the case.
I guess this is more of a create-a-twink than create-a-belieavable-4th-world-character game? I'll have to redo my submission if that's the case.
You obviously haven't been reading the ED thread you've been pissing all over.
There has been much discussion of just how likely it is for a mortal to be able to hold vast stores of information in a frail mortal mind and how those skills atrophy from disuse.
This is the situation I am trying to emulate. I was also considering Flashbacks and Amnesia but neither was mechanically satisfying.
I'd thank you to remain civil here or go elsewhere.
There has been much discussion of just how likely it is for a mortal to be able to hold vast stores of information in a frail mortal mind and how those skills atrophy from disuse.
This is the situation I am trying to emulate. I was also considering Flashbacks and Amnesia but neither was mechanically satisfying.
I'd thank you to remain civil here or go elsewhere.
Doc, you know the rules, and this contitutes as what Bull likes to affectionately refer to as "Thread Crapping". Translates to :Posting in a thread with content that not only adds nothing but is directed against the purpose of the thread or the posters. Move on or add something relevant.
soo... custom metamagics and spells are ok... how bout custom martial arts? With 5000+ years, coming up with a personal martial art is far more likely...
QUOTE (Mickle5125 @ Sep 27 2008, 05:08 PM)
soo... custom metamagics and spells are ok... how bout custom martial arts? With 5000+ years, coming up with a personal martial art is far more likely...
I don't see why not, I've opted to just change the name of a stock one. So long as it's reasonable and has good fluff knock yourself out...
Right! well, I'm hacking out the character... somehow, I've ended up spending way too much money, so I've had to remove the permanent luxury lifestyle so that I could buy magic up to around where I want it. seems that 4,000,000+ nuyen is a little much... ^_^
BTW, I'll also hack out a free spirit, mostly for the fun of it, but also so that I have the full stats that my means of achieving immortality offers.
BTW, I'll also hack out a free spirit, mostly for the fun of it, but also so that I have the full stats that my means of achieving immortality offers.
Build with my groups house-rule of maximum natural magic: 7; maximum Initiate Grade: 5; maximum focus Force: 7; maximum metamagic focus Force: 5
All unspent Karma would be placed into Initiation, Magic, & Foci.
Ækara Wolner (Nightwing) (2811 Karma)
(Muspelheim)
All unspent Karma would be placed into Initiation, Magic, & Foci.
Ækara Wolner (Nightwing) (2811 Karma)
[ Spoiler ]
(Muspelheim)
[ Spoiler ]
Sample Custom Spell.
Shield
Combining the best qualities of Deflection and Physical Barrier this Spell creates a field that re-routes incident energy away from the target.
The field has a low-pass impulse filter which permits a low level of kinetic or electromagnetic energy to pass through it unchanged allowing the target to interact normally with his environment. Any energy incident on the barrier with a greater impulse than this maximum has all it's excess energy diverted away from the target. All damage to the target has it's DV reduced by a factor of Hits/3 (round up).
The field forms a variable distance, controlled by the target, up to a foot, from the targets skin. This has side-effect of reducing the targets effective Strength for calculating Unarmed Melee DV by Hits to a minimum of 1.
Drain: Force/2 + 3
edit - changed the Drain Code to what it should be RAW, my instinct is to make it (+6) but I've no rules justification for this. It's a powerful effect but I think the best way to moderate it is to scale the divisor on Hits for effect.
edit - again - Increased the divisor by one to bring it in line with other damage resisting manipulations.
Shield
Combining the best qualities of Deflection and Physical Barrier this Spell creates a field that re-routes incident energy away from the target.
The field has a low-pass impulse filter which permits a low level of kinetic or electromagnetic energy to pass through it unchanged allowing the target to interact normally with his environment. Any energy incident on the barrier with a greater impulse than this maximum has all it's excess energy diverted away from the target. All damage to the target has it's DV reduced by a factor of Hits/3 (round up).
The field forms a variable distance, controlled by the target, up to a foot, from the targets skin. This has side-effect of reducing the targets effective Strength for calculating Unarmed Melee DV by Hits to a minimum of 1.
Drain: Force/2 + 3
edit - changed the Drain Code to what it should be RAW, my instinct is to make it (+6) but I've no rules justification for this. It's a powerful effect but I think the best way to moderate it is to scale the divisor on Hits for effect.
edit - again - Increased the divisor by one to bring it in line with other damage resisting manipulations.
Here's a first draft of background.
Baba Yaga
Baba Yaga
[ Spoiler ]
Tweaked version of Muspellheimr's Extended Casting Metamagic.
Extended Casting
Extended Casting allows an initiate to cast spells as an Extended Test with a time interval of Complex Action (Spellcasting) or 12 – Magic Hours (Ritual Spellcasting). The number of rolls made beyond the first cannot exceed the casters Initiate Grade, and for each roll made beyond the first, the Drain of the spell is increased by +1.
If the Magical Link (such as Line of Sight) is broken at any time during the casting, the spell fails & the caster must resist Drain. This metamagic does not allow a caster to exceed Force hits.
Spells that are Success Tests accumulate one hit per hit rolled in each interval. Resisted Spells accumulate net hits for each interval and are resisted as normal in each interval. Resisted Spells that are targeted against objects accumulate net hits in excess of OR for each interval.
Extended Casting
Extended Casting allows an initiate to cast spells as an Extended Test with a time interval of Complex Action (Spellcasting) or 12 – Magic Hours (Ritual Spellcasting). The number of rolls made beyond the first cannot exceed the casters Initiate Grade, and for each roll made beyond the first, the Drain of the spell is increased by +1.
If the Magical Link (such as Line of Sight) is broken at any time during the casting, the spell fails & the caster must resist Drain. This metamagic does not allow a caster to exceed Force hits.
Spells that are Success Tests accumulate one hit per hit rolled in each interval. Resisted Spells accumulate net hits for each interval and are resisted as normal in each interval. Resisted Spells that are targeted against objects accumulate net hits in excess of OR for each interval.
soo... are we actually going to be playing a game with the minor gods we're building?
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