Full Version: Trid Phantasm idea.
So trid phantasm states that the caster can create any illusion he wants as long as it fits within the area effect of the spell. As I see it a one way mirror if big enough or in a sufficiently enclosed space (such as a hallway) would prevent the "bad guys" from seeing my team thereby allowing us to shoot at them uninhibited while they would be getting +8 modifiers for blind fire. Anyone see any major problems with this idea? I already figure I couldn't cast through it because it would be an illusion of line of site not actually line of site.
People here will oppose it just as much as using a voluntary target only variant of invisibility to give LoS to the group's gunbunny.
Yeah but it's not a variant of a spell. The description of the spell states " They can create an illusion of anything the caster has seen before, from a flower or a cred-stick to a dragon breathing fire, so long as the illusion is no larger than the spell's area" it seems to me that trid-phantasm can be a very powerful spell if it's used in the right circumstances, but I would like to know if there is a logical argument for not being able to do this. Fair is fair and I don't want to use something that wouldn't really work. Although my GM still might not allow it.
Theres not really a logical argument against it. I mean theres like a gagillion interpretations of that idea.
Player: I make the illusion of a 1 way mirror
Player: I make the illusion that the team isnt here
Player: I make the illusion of that wall we are by appear 5 feet closer to hide us
Player: I make the illusion that we are also security guards
etc etc etc
Point being the spell is pretty hard to cast and has a D drain code for a reason. It is, in my opinion, an often overlooked spell because it relys on the casters inginuity over any game stat. And at the end of the day "spell: illusion anything" is pretty darn hard to beat, long as you can cast it without passing out.
Player: I make the illusion of a 1 way mirror
Player: I make the illusion that the team isnt here
Player: I make the illusion of that wall we are by appear 5 feet closer to hide us
Player: I make the illusion that we are also security guards
etc etc etc
Point being the spell is pretty hard to cast and has a D drain code for a reason. It is, in my opinion, an often overlooked spell because it relys on the casters inginuity over any game stat. And at the end of the day "spell: illusion anything" is pretty darn hard to beat, long as you can cast it without passing out.
| QUOTE (The White Dwarf @ Feb 10 2004, 07:03 AM) |
| And at the end of the day "spell: illusion anything" is pretty darn hard to beat, long as you can cast it without passing out. |
As an Indirect Illusion, you rarely need to cast Trid Phantasm at greater than Force 1 (unless you are trying to fool some reeeeeaaally smart people). With a TN of 2 and a WIL of 6, you should be able to stage drain down to Moderate easily. Add in some totem modifiers, spell pool, centering, trauma damper, and/or expendable foci, and you shouldn't have to deal with more than the occasional Light. With a sustaining focus and a few hours rest time, even that won't be a problem.
I see no problem with it, except for imagination. The mage would merely have to project an image of what he sees himself on the reverse side, without having to make anything his team can see.
also, in our game (altogether now - HOUSE RULE!!!) we use the TN of illusion spells like this one as a BASE target number, increasing the TN depending on the complexity or difficulty of the illusion, and something like this I would still say wants at least a +1 if not a +2 to that target number.
also, in our game (altogether now - HOUSE RULE!!!) we use the TN of illusion spells like this one as a BASE target number, increasing the TN depending on the complexity or difficulty of the illusion, and something like this I would still say wants at least a +1 if not a +2 to that target number.
| QUOTE (Spookymonster) |
| As an Indirect Illusion, you rarely need to cast Trid Phantasm at greater than Force 1 (unless you are trying to fool some reeeeeaaally smart people). With a TN of 2 and a WIL of 6, you should be able to stage drain down to Moderate easily. Add in some totem modifiers, spell pool, centering, trauma damper, and/or expendable foci, and you shouldn't have to deal with more than the occasional Light. With a sustaining focus and a few hours rest time, even that won't be a problem. |
Actually, because drain is force/2 (rounded down), there's an arguement for pushing the force right up to 5ish safely. In a clean spot of mana, good visibility, no background etc (ie, no upward modifiers), a force 5 trid phantasm wil be have drain resisted with a target number of 2. Of course, the more distractions there are, the greater the balancing act the mage needs to do on force vs drain.
Keep in mind that the higher the force, the less likely someone is to disbelieve it. At force 5, all but the terribly clever cookies should fall for it. Force 1 means you're relying on lots of success above and beyond Mr and Mrs Jones. Even the average pleb will be getting most of their intelligence/willpower dice coming up as successes against a target of 1.
| QUOTE (Lycanthropic Dreaming) |
| Keep in mind that the higher the force, the less likely someone is to disbelieve it. At force 5, all but the terribly clever cookies should fall for it. Force 1 means you're relying on lots of success above and beyond Mr and Mrs Jones. Even the average pleb will be getting most of their intelligence/willpower dice coming up as successes against a target of 1. |
Assuming a Force 1 spell cast with 12 dice, you'll get an average of 6 successes. Six successes means anyone with an Int less than 7 doesn't even stand a chance of seeing thru the illusion. Even an Int 7 character will have to succeed on every roll to beat the caster's successes.
Sure, increasing the Force means the resistor is less likely to roll successes. But then again, they won't need as many either, since the caster will be using less dice for casting and more dice for drain.
TN of 2 actually. In SR, a 1 is always a failure.
| QUOTE |
| Even an Int 7 character will have to succeed on every roll to beat the caster's successes. |
Unless illusions operate differently than other spells, the target only needs to match successes in the Resistance test.
They operate differently.
Making the illusion that you are security guards wouldn't work, because phantasm targets areas, not objects or people. Making the illusion that you are invisible wouldn't really work, but making an illusion of what the area looks like without you would be fine, as long as you don't move outside the radius of the spell. Making the illusion of a one-way mirror shouldn't work, because to do that the illusion would have to reflect light, rather than merely creating it. Making an illusion of a wall between you and a viewer so the viewer wouldn't see you is fine, but there's nothing stopping people from touching the "wall" and realizing it's an illusion. And yes, resistance tests require that you merely match successes, not exceed them.
in the event of a tie, I thought it went with the attacker (in this case caster)?
| QUOTE |
| Making the illusion that you are security guards wouldn't work, because phantasm targets areas, not objects or people. Making the illusion that you are invisible wouldn't really work, but making an illusion of what the area looks like without you would be fine, as long as you don't move outside the radius of the spell. Making the illusion of a one-way mirror shouldn't work, because to do that the illusion would have to reflect light, rather than merely creating it. Making an illusion of a wall between you and a viewer so the viewer wouldn't see you is fine, but there's nothing stopping people from touching the "wall" and realizing it's an illusion. And yes, resistance tests require that you merely match successes, not exceed them. |
However, if you consider the fact that an indirect illusion spell is a physical spell, thereby meaning it effects technological sensors, it would have to create light waves itself for others to see anything, since the mana isn't directly manipulating the target when the target is a video camera. And since it does fool cameras, because it's an indirect illusion spell, a one way mirror would work, because it doesn't matter what image your sending to people, light waves would be light waves.
Assuming you want to try and drag real world physics into a game with elves, dragons, and zombies.
| QUOTE (Fenris) |
| it would have to create light waves |
It wouldn't, and believe me when I say that you'll end up with all sorts of problems if you consider Illusions to actually create and manipulate light, photons and all.
You'll be much better off thinking of the technology-fooling ability of Physical Illusions to be just that, the spell fooling the technological sensor into showing/sensing something.
So if there is a problem with illusions that reflect light (i.e. a mirror) then what happens when you create the illusion of a car with chrome bumpers, if the chrome isn't reflecting anything people would notice at the least there is something wrong and at the worst that it's obviously an illusion. Even with out chrome, what about a nice shiny car? Everything reflects light in it's own unique way depending on what it's made out of, it just happens that mirrors are very efficient reflectors.
You could do this in my game but a house rule limiting all illisions to a max number of sucesses stops the force one issue.
Look at it this way, maybe, at least for mana version: The illusion creates an image in the person's mind, and the mind does what it does for all things you see and even hear - fills in the gaps about what it can't see but expects to find. that would nicely explain why a shiny car doesn't immediately look odd. It only has to be shiny enough and the people looking at it - certainly casually - fill in the blanks themselves. When they take a closer look, that's when the successes come into effect, forcing the brain to continue see what it saw before.
Or something. Its magic. It doesn't have to make sense. If you want to allow it, then allow it. There's probably a case either way, which is why we just increase target numbers for flash stuff like that. The mage can do it, its just much much harder than creating an obviously fake illusion of, say, a mini-godzilla appearing in a road intersection.
Or something. Its magic. It doesn't have to make sense. If you want to allow it, then allow it. There's probably a case either way, which is why we just increase target numbers for flash stuff like that. The mage can do it, its just much much harder than creating an obviously fake illusion of, say, a mini-godzilla appearing in a road intersection.
| QUOTE (Spookymonster) |
| Sure, increasing the Force means the resistor is less likely to roll successes. But then again, they won't need as many either, since the caster will be using less dice for casting and more dice for drain. TN of 2 actually. In SR, a 1 is always a failure. |
I agree about wanting to max out successes (and, yes, force 1 for a competent mage can be very convincing to an average mundane, but the things you'd really like to fool typically leave the average mundane for dead).
What I was trying to point out is that (with no modifiers), the spell at force 5 has the same drain target number as the spell at force 1 (a target of 2, being 5/2 rounded down). There's an argument in this scenario for keeping the drain dice number the same between forces 1 thru 5.
If you have the same number of dice devoted to success either way, increasing the force just guarantees less successes on the target's end.
Of course, our GM is well aware of the maths behind this. He's not afraid to use background count, or other nifty things to make the magicians of the party think hard about success/drain dice balancing.
On an interesting note: if illusions can't block/affect light rays to some extent then it'd be quite easy to damage someone's eyes with them. You make them think it's dark, they dark-adapt their eyes, their eyes take-in several times the amount they're supposed to, they go blind or at-least damage their eyes.
| QUOTE (Lilt) |
| On an interesting note: if illusions can't block/affect light rays to some extent then it'd be quite easy to damage someone's eyes with them. You make them think it's dark, they dark-adapt their eyes, their eyes take-in several times the amount they're supposed to, they go blind or at-least damage their eyes. |
would flare comp help them resist this? Flare comp is automatic and not controlled by anything organic or in the brain, right?
I always assumed that a trid phantasm spell (the physical one) can create the entire 'experience' related to a given illusion, including touch, sight, smell, taste, and sound, for anything. Thus if a sec guard (or a drone) were to walk into you when you are under the guise of an 'empty hallway' phantasm, the guard or drone might get a chance to re-resist the spell, but would probably just ignore the sensasion. 
I also use the max successes = force of the spell. It solves a lot of problems in my games.
I also use the max successes = force of the spell. It solves a lot of problems in my games.
| QUOTE (Shanshu Freeman) |
| would flare comp help them resist this? Flare comp is automatic and not controlled by anything organic or in the brain, right? |
Almost definately not if the spell in question is Trid Phantasm that can affect technical devices, probably not if the spell is normal Phantasm as the flare compensation has been paid for with essence (yadda yadda yadda).
| QUOTE (TheScamp) | ||
Unless illusions operate differently than other spells, the target only needs to match successes in the Resistance test. |
SR3, p.195, under Illusion Spells, third paragraph:
| QUOTE |
| The observer must generate more successes in a Resistance Test than the spellcaster to determine that the illusion is not real. If the spell is not completely resisted, the character is fully affected by the illusion. |
Am I missing something? (Sorry for the slow response - wife went into labor Tuesday, and we're all just getting back from the hospital today
)
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator @ Feb 11 2004, 04:59 AM) | ||
It wouldn't, and believe me when I say that you'll end up with all sorts of problems if you consider Illusions to actually create and manipulate light, photons and all. |
Actually, there is canon to support the interpretation that Indirect Illusion spells manipulate and/or create light. CC, p. 112, under Underwater Spellcasting, second paragraphs:
| QUOTE |
| Physical illusion spells, on the other hand, are affected by refractive distortion and appear larger and closer than the caster intended (see Underwater Perception, p.111). |
If the visual element of a Physical illusion isn't actually travelling via light waves, then it wouldn't be susceptible to refraction.
Before anyone adds, "that would make it a manipulation spell," I'll point out that there are already too many manipulation spells, and by strict definition, every spell should be a manipulation spell. Just accept that physical illusions aren't all in the mind, but remain illusions.
| QUOTE (Lycanthropic Dreaming @ Feb 12 2004, 07:11 PM) |
| What I was trying to point out is that (with no modifiers), the spell at force 5 has the same drain target number as the spell at force 1 (a target of 2, being 5/2 rounded down). There's an argument in this scenario for keeping the drain dice number the same between forces 1 thru 5. |
Not quite. Trid Phantasm has a drain of +1(D). Casting at Force 5 would result in a TN of (5/2, rounded down) +1, or 3. Trid Phantasm would need to be cast at a Force of no grater than 3 to maintain a drain of only 2. Still, point taken.
[edit]
Also, once you consider drain modifiers from casting while sustaining other spells. A Force 1 Trid Phantasm cast while sustaining one other spell would have a drain TN of
(1/2, rounded down) + 1 + 2 = 0 + 1 + 2 = 3
Meanwhile, a Force 2 or Force 3 TP would have
(3/2, rounded down) + 1 + 2 = 1 + 1 + 2 = 4
And yes, I did note that your original post was only addressing casting without modifiers
. Just figured I'd mention them for completeness.
While the one-way mirror is an ingenious idea, I probably wouldn't allow it as a GM. The spellcaster can create an illusion of anything he/she can imagine, true, but this is trying to create an illusion that only effects some viewers, however you try to rationalize it. Casting a one-way opaque barrier would have to be a new, separate spell in any campaign that I was running.
By the way, the underwater combat rules don't necessarily mean that physical illusions are optical. It could simply be the spellcaster's skewed perceptions messing up how he/she constructs the illusion. Making physical illusions optical spells would really mess up game balance - for one thing, an easily-resistable Force: 1 improved invisibility would still give enemies the +8 TN for blind fire.
By the way, the underwater combat rules don't necessarily mean that physical illusions are optical. It could simply be the spellcaster's skewed perceptions messing up how he/she constructs the illusion. Making physical illusions optical spells would really mess up game balance - for one thing, an easily-resistable Force: 1 improved invisibility would still give enemies the +8 TN for blind fire.
Actually I would argue that a one way mirror affects all viewer. It's just that viewers on one side of it see a mirror and viewers on the other side see a shaded pane of glass. Maybe adding some sort of visibility modifier since the "glass" wouldn't be perfectly clear and colorless.
| QUOTE |
| Lilt On an interesting note: if illusions can't block/affect light rays to some extent then it'd be quite easy to damage someone's eyes with them. You make them think it's dark, they dark-adapt their eyes, their eyes take-in several times the amount they're supposed to, they go blind or at-least damage their eyes. |
Which is not the illusion causing the damage, but rather the target's reaction to the illusion. Identical, in method, to an illusion of a bridge where none exists.
| QUOTE |
| Spookymonster If the visual element of a Physical illusion isn't actually travelling via light waves, then it wouldn't be susceptible to refraction. |
Physical Illusions create data. The data is transmitted from source point outwards. Because the spell is physical the data picks up physical ques.
I know you and I don't agree, Spookymonster, but I want both opinions out there.
| QUOTE (Spookymonster) |
| Not quite. Trid Phantasm has a drain of +1(D). Casting at Force 5 would result in a TN of (5/2, rounded down) +1, or 3. Trid Phantasm would need to be cast at a Force of no grater than 3 to maintain a drain of only 2. Still, point taken. |
Ahhh... +1(D). Really should have checked that. I was happily posting in this little dream world where it was just D. Yeah, the moment you cast a spell with a drain target number modifier, you need to play the balancing game a little more carefully.
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