I understand and like the rules around seeing magic being cast. Basically low force spells might not be noticed, but high force will.

How does this translate to spirit powers? Spirit powers are not spells, for example they are not resisted by counterspell.

There are obviously vulgar effects: engulf, elemental aura, natural weapon etc that are in your face and obvious. Accident is specifically stated as being not obvious. The rules for visibility of possession by spirits are pretty clear.

What about powers such as guard and confuse? Will it be obvious if a force 6 spirit casts confusion on you or guards you? Would you notice a movement reduction power until you started to move?

On a related not how can these powers be dispelled?

This is a really good question.

As far as I know, the rules genuinely don't have an answer to this question in general.

I would probably houserule that there is a similar effect as a spell being cast, and that the force of the spirit using the spirit power acts as the spell force for this purpose.


Another fundamental problem with spirit powers is that they dont have a place on the assensing table. For assensing purposes, I would say they should be every bit as obvious as a spell. 1 hit should tell you that it's there, 2 hits should tell you approx. what force it is, 3 hits should tell you what it's doing. 4 or more hits may lead you back to the spirit using it.

I don't know where you ge that. By assensing you can never find out what spell it actually is. The best you can do is find the spell category at two hits. While spirit powers would leave signatures, their duration is 0 since the powers don't have a force rating.

But Spirits do have a Force Rating which is intrinsic to their function, so Spirit Powers will leave a trace as normal... for normal times based upon the Spirit's Force...

Further to this reply, 3 hits give any astral signature on the subject and 4 hits give the "general cause of any astral signature", including the example of a 'hearth spirit' (An unedited carry-over from earlier editions?) as opposed to a spell or other source.

A Hearth Spirit would just be a particular type of a Spirit of Man...

So, yeah, a holdover and a victim of SR4 spirit homogenization. Personally, I'd probably run them with Task stats these days, since hearth spirits in previous editions had more to do with domesticity in general than literally being associated with a fireplace. Besides, back then Spirits of Man were a subclass of nature spirits (and thus bound to a specific populated domain) rather than say, a specific ancestor or whatever. The categories really were shaken up a lot since they're basically defined by their function as opposed to origin now.

This is a valid interpretation, but (unfortunately) not RAW. How long would a signtature of a Force 1 spell cast by a Force 8 Spirit of Man last?

@hearth spirit as cause for an astral signature: This does not fit with the rest of the rules. SR has a tradition of botching examples even when the rules are clear.

So just to put the cat among the pigeons:

• How obvious is concealment? Do people get a perception check to see if its going? If so does that make high force concealment the best way to let the bad guys know you are coming. Is concealment visible on the astral plane?
• How obvious is accident? In the book it says its not obvious...perhaps its a special case
• If a spirit uses natural weapon (a spirit power) does it leave an astral trace
• If a spirit uses influence is it obvious?

My thought on this is that spells and spirit powers are actually different. For example the resistance against spirit powers does not include counterspell. I think that they can be categorised as vulgar and covert powers. Vulgar powers (engulf, energy aura...) are in your face and visible, the others aren't. I would certainly give people with suitable knowledge skills a chance to understand what is going on if they observe the effects of the covert powers. I have no idea how to deal with assensing. I think that other interpretations make concealment / accident much less interesting powers.

But they do suffer from Paradox, unless there are no mundanes around.

Wrong Game.

Finally a good explanation for VITAS: it was sent by god to kill all the muggles.

See, The Spell of a Spirit would act as a Spell, at the Force of the Spell... a Power of the Spirit would act at as a Power, at the Force of the Spirit...

Simple and Easy...

Yeah, this is one of the (unfortunately few) situations where the answer's pretty obvious, even if it's not explicit in the RAW.

Agreed...

As you say it is not RAW. The only value describing a Power's effectiveness is the creature's Magic, not Force. Only with Spirits this has the same numerical value. They still are two distinct properties.

What happens with Powers from creatures that don't have a Force rating, like a Thunderbird's Weather Control or a Vampire's Essence Drain

They do have Magic ratings, so as you say, go with that.

This is a houserule albeit a reasonable one. Force=/=Magic.

Given that the RAW doesn't actually address the issue, houseruling isn't contradicting RAW in this case, is it?

It adresses the issue in the form that spirit Powers don't have a force rating and as such leave a signature lasting 0 time. giving those powers one contradicts indeed RAW. Powersare different from Spells not only in the fact that they can't be counterspelled.

Then you should not complain about the effects if you are unwilling to take steps to control them... Spirit Magic leaves signatures, regardless if it is from Force or Magic... Simplest Fix there is...

I don't think he's complained about it once in this thread.

Was not directed at anyone specifically, it was meant to be a general statement (Sorry if that was a bit unclear, the internet is so impersonal sometimes). I do find it interesting, though, that when someone complains about something (and it WAS a complaint), and then a simple, easy, and obvious "fix" is suggested, it is ignored outright (is not liked, is not RAW, or whatever), and then someone continues to bring up scenarios where the proposed "fix" will have already solved the issue.

Magic leaves a signature... That is RAW...
Spirits are Magical Creatures... That is RAW...
Spirit Spells leave a Signature... That is RAW...
Spirit Powers are Magic (RAW), and come from Spirits (RAW), and should thus Leave a Signature (Implied, because they are a magical power)... That is Common Sense... And ALL SPIRIT POWERS are based upon the FORCE of the Spirit... Seems simple to me...

The proposed fix solves the issue... If it is not the STRICTEST RAW, it is still within the paradigm of RAW, and so I do not see why it is such a huge issue.

My 2 anyways... Sorry for the confusion

Let me put it this way...

Spirits by their nature do not leave signatures... (Just by existing)
Mages do not leave signatures... (Just be existing)

Now, Mages leave a signature when they cast a spell...
Spirits Leave a Signature when they cast a Spell (Assuming they can do so)...
MAges Leave a Signature when they use a magical ability (Setting a Ward)
Why would not a Spirit leave a Signature when they use a power (Movement)?

It probably would and should, but as of now that is not RAW, just like materializing spirits are not RAW. Most of us however do play with them.

Oh and BTW if spirits leave signatures, those are tied to them not the controlling mage. As soon as they are no longer in his service, the signature won't help the pursuers at all. It is even up to debate if that particular spirit still exists. For signature tracking to be effective, someone would have to postulate that they indeed do continue to exist after they were dismissed, which probably will never happen.

Sephiroth is right I never complained about spirits not leaving signatures.

RAW is what it is, and what's being proposed is perfectly sensible but not RAW. No need for anyone to take that personally.

Hmm. So a spirit using Materialization leaves an astral signature.. would he continue leaving that signature while he was materialized, or only on the initial moment when the power is activated?

And is the astral signature really on the astral plane? Can a no-longer-materialized spirit even scrub the materialization signature at all?

And would a summoned/bound spirit's signature incorporate part of the mage's signature? Would spirit signatures be a way to determine whether you summon new spirits every time or if you sometimes get returners?

As I previously said, Apologies...

No, this was just a reference to another obviously broken rule that can easily be fixed. By RAW spirits can't materialize, because it is a physical Power, but on activation they are on the astral plane, where physical Powers cannot be used.

Yes. You have to be active on the astral plane to remove them, no matter where the the effect causing the signature was.

There is no mention of this.