So, after a long break, we're getting the old band back together and starting a new SR4 campaign. We're trying something a bit different than our last campaign. What we have so far is:

Driver/Face: light cyber, Heavy social.
Security Guy: Highly skilled, competent short-range shooter.
Physical/Social Adept: Not sure exactly where he's going, but building around Missile Mastery.
Mage: Leaning toward support/investigative type magic.

And that leaves me. I've always wanted to play a ghoul, and here they're giving me my chance. I don't know how it's going to work out. My concept is that he's the guy who is a physical bag of tricks. He can do the sorts of things people can't normally do. He can get into difficult places and perform difficult tasks. Also, he will be a melee brawler.

So, I am thinking Adept. I already see the problem with having Essense 5. I am hoping to work with this. Most of my group is not min/maxer types, and we all appreciate a cool concept.

With that in mind, I'm looking for suggestions and advice on how to build an interesting and effective character. What I am not looking for is "Don't do it. It's not an optimal build". I do, however, welcome specific warnings of potential problems that might come up.

Specific questions:

Should I take improved reflexes or just try to go for synaptic boosters, along with perhaps some other augmentations?

Freefall, Gliding, and Great Leap sound interesting, but don't look very effective with their numbers. Any experience with these, and are they worth taking?

Do I need to take immediate precautions to protect myself as a dual-natured being. I know that astrally projecting mages and various spirits can basically nuke while I am helpless to do anything about it. I plan to initiate and get masking ASAP, but what, if anything, should I start with?

I'm pretty sure I'm going to skip killing hands and just go with my claws. I don't believe Critical Strike stacks with claws, so any other ideas for how to be a good brawler as a ghoul? I might just jack up my Unarmed Combat or Blades.

Are the Way of the Adept qualities any good? Looks like you have to take several of the powers on the list to make it worth it, and I don't know if I'm gonna specialize that much.

Any gear suggestions?

I actually made one of these a few months back, and having been playing him exclusively until recently. A Ghoul Hobgoblin, specifically, which has terrified the other players, even though they haven't figured out the "ghoul" part yet. I didn't play a troll due to concept, and also a lack of need to munchkin.

I also went with a part bioware/part magic adept. I've listed my view in light of your questions in there as well: they were things that came up for me too.

This list is of pitfalls and advantages I have personally discovered: they may not apply to you.

~ Initiate, initiate, initiate. Start with Masking to avoid being pinned as a ghoul in astral. Keeping this a secret will make your life easier.
~ Bioware/adept mix: this works well IF your group is using the optional rule that Initiating allows you to pick up 1 point in adept powers. Otherwise, this is rough for long term. I personally suggest the synaptic booster, if you can get it at char creation. I personally took "Restricted Gear" and bought rating 3 outright. Normally this is bad, but it worked insanely well for this concept out the door, due to the Complex Melee attack and reflexes boost.
~ If your team is not using the optional rule for power points, I'd recommend bioware at the start only, at least for quite a while.
~ Cybereyes are a must. If you take Synapse Booster R3, they can fit nicely in the .5 leftover and leave a little more.
~ Race is important only if you are dice whoring. Otherwise, any race would likely do. Roleplay!
~ If you are using unarmed combat, the claws help as a ghoul: no need for killing hands. If you are using a weapon, and it fits your concept, consider being a Sasobonsam for the extra reach (but no claws) instead of a vanilla ghoul. This is not really required, just a small advantage.
~ SNEAKY is good for any ghoul. Mine is an infiltrator as well, with chameleon cloak.
~ I made mine a Hunter concept: low logic and higher intuition. That, + synapse booster, and I have the highest phys initiative on the team. I also win surprise tests.
~ Consider the "Arcane Arrester" quality, which CAN be used with adepts. This will help you vs mages you have to close with.
~ Dual Natured is going to be your largest challenge (GM dependent), as you may be hampered in places that normal people are not. Like crossing a mana barrier. You can also be seen, and hurt, by non-manifested spirits. This can suck. See Arcane Arrester, and I'd recommend not skimping on Will.
~ HITTING in melee will likely be more a challenge than doing damage. Skimp not on this. This was my 6 with a specialization at start.
~ I prefer Arcane Arrester at start (got a Way in game w karma) but a Way is also very helpful for this build: pick your favorite, though mine are Burnout or Warrior for my character.
~ Ways give you discounts on powers or bioware essence, and this is a GOOD THING. You will want one eventually no matter what, I would think.
~ An obvious point, but important enough to state: get a VERY loyal street-doc if you are planning to gain more bioware as you go, if your team uses the Initiate-extra-power-point rule.

Adept Powers
~ Inertial Strike (Knockdown bonus) is probably my favorite power on this build. Nearly anything I hit in melee goes on the floor. It helps make up for the lack of 2 simple action attacks when everyone has to stand up to not get walloped.
~ Likewise, if you are close, Counterstrike is vastly valuable to stack those dice.
~ if going Unarmed, Critical Strike can also stack damage quickly, and more cheaply than the skill improve/stat improve. High agility and high skill make up for this, and the raw damage is worth it in my opinion if you specialize unarmed. Since they increase "Unarmed attack" and claws use the "Unarmed skill," we DO stack them. At only a +1 difference, it's not that unbalancing.
~ Iron Will can help with the fact you can be targeted by spells in astral only when your team cannot.
~ In my opinion, freefall, gliding, and great leap are qualities that can be easily made up with other changes or gear. IMO, they are only effective if you have already maxed other things here (like agility) and are adding yet another something more.


Gear
~ Keep disguise kits handy, so you can touch up makeup or some other covering to keep your nature hidden
~ Body stack makes you good and resistant to drugs and toxins. I carry Narcojet DMSO grenades and with my chem protect I'm not afraid to drop it at my feet.
~ It may be obvious, but your sense of smell is an awesome thing. However, high inituition + enhanced hearing + earbud audio R3 makes it tough to sneak up on me.
~ I always carry C-Squared and use it liberally. Genetic traces also give away you are a ghoul.
~ I keep 2 lifestyles minimum, so the "ghoul" part never gets near the nice and shiny official one.
~ Geckotape gloves, or better yet, gecko hands, are your good friend. My common tactic is to glide/climb up, hide with chameleon/disguise, and drop on targets like a load of bricks.
~ Wingsuits have made my life easier. Since Parachuting (the skill used) runs off Body, a ghoul should find this easy, even on defaulting. Add ruthenium if allowed.
~ If you are not using claws, and not dual wielding, the ax is just silly powerful.
~ You may do better with thrown weapons/bows than the rest of your team. They do have certain advantages you may want to consider.


Lastly, consult with the GM to see if he/she is using the standard book rules for Ghoul infection, or if he is going with the unofficial errata. As was pointed out to me in a previous thread, the transmission rules of the book make it frighteningly easy to pass things on. If he is not altering things, consider the "infertile infected" negative quality. This will buy you (maybe) some slight leniency if you are caught, but it will keep things hidden when you don't pass the disease so often, as well as protect your teammates.

Someone somewhere else said that the 1 point of essense loss from becoming a a ghoul was a "hole" that could be filled with 'ware, thus not losing any Magic. Does this make sense to anyone?

Also, I'm making this one human, since I really want the extra points for skills and such.

I should be able to get synaptic boosters, but there's a sort of agreement that we're not going to go above 2 IPs, or maybe 3, to start with, to avoid the problem of bored players waiting for their turn. We had this in the last game.

I'll have to mention to the GM about the house rule. Have you found it necessary to allow Adepts to keep up?

i think that is really stretching it, as infection costs 1 essence. Citation needed


IMO, it is necessary, yes.
The power curve of adepts is severely low without it, if you stay 'pure magic'. Otherwise it's nice to have.

Heh, that's what I said.

Infiltrator / "B&E guy" would tie in with a melee specialist, and let you fill a roll not yet covered by the other players. What with Ghoul's two heightened senses, dual-nature, and the option to burn a point of Essence and get cybereyes (and a couple other useful doodads while you're spending Essence) ... I think it could work, and work very well. Yes, that'll hurt a bit more, what with the already-existing E loss of being a Ghoul. But in the end, I suspect it's worth it. Magic 4 will just have to cost you 55BP.


Cybereyes are almost an absolute must. That or maybe goggles packed with sensors, and a 'trode net feeding the visual data directly to your brain.


Those sound like my "parkour adept" ghoul ... who simply doesn't work unless using 1,000 KarmaGen rules.


You'll almost never be helpless.

For one, spirits and astral mages aren't that common.

For two, all you have to do is break LOS, in a way that forces them to come within melee range of you. At which point, your dual-nature puts THEM at serious risk.


Not all variations of Ghoul have claws. The Sasobonsam (African variant; dominant type in Asomondo, teh Ghoul nation) instead gets longer arms nad legs (thus, Reach 1). Killing hands and the right Elemental Strike can be fearsomely effective. Cold is a good choice (halves all armor! woo! And Insulation is probably less-common at high ratings, than nonconductivity!)

As a bonus, that Reach 1 could arguably make more places be "force the astral mage/spirit into melee range"-suitable for you, than someone with normal length arms.


Pick your powers, decide if the discounts - or the way-specific power - are worth the 10 extra BP.


Stuff that helps an Infiltrator / B&E type, if you go with that suggestion. Autopickers, maglock sequencers (and the skills to go with them), chameleon suits. That sort of thing.

If you don't do any +IP gear at all, consider the 15BP quality "Adrenaline Surge". At least, you'll almost always go FIRST, period - and if the other guy is dead, his initiative stops mattering, n'est-ce pas?

It certainly helps, but in my opinion is not necessary for PURE adepts. However, it's critical for the adept/bioware/cyber mix. You have to increase your power pool every time you lower your essence by 1, or you lose powers. If you can just initiate, it makes this simpler short term, and the same long term. If you have to increase your magic too (without the optional rule), then additional bio/cyberware will come with a heavy karma cost as well.

If you do not have this rule used, I'd recommend starting with some bioware, and not getting any more for a long long time. If you DO use the rule, then you should be able to keep up with your money fairly easily, and the initiation grades will also help with things like Masking.

With Optional: bio/cyberware costs: (1 initiation grade + nuyen) per essence point lost. That starts at 16 karma (1st initiation was Masking, right?), 2nd is 19 karma.

Without Optional: bio/cyberware costs: (1 initiation grade + 1 magic + nuyen) per essence. 1st point is 35 karma if you maxed magic. 2nd is 56 karma. Just to install new 'ware (per essence point). Ouch.

1) Keep in mind that starting with Essence 5 is going to limit you somewhat.
1a) Synaptic Boosters have the benefit of never going away in background count at the cost of 1-2 magic.
1b) its possible, but super cheesy to get your Essence back up to 6. Cellular Repair restores essence lost due to disease, and while hmhvv infected can't take genetic treatments, they can't do so because the virus undoes attempts to change genetic stuff - the infertile infected quality means that you don't actually have the virus in your system, you've just been changed by it. This also removes the reason why you can't take geneware.

2) Absolutely yes. With a lower amount of essence and thus magic to play with, getting 25% off of expensive powers like Improved Reflexes is great.

Hm. As a GM I would't allow this. The description of the infection says "Revitalization gene therapy cannot recover Essence lost to HMHVV III infection."

This is not correct. It says the virus mutated and is no longer transferable, OR they were born infected and it was never present.. RC pg 82. The virus would still prevent everything it did before, or the genetic structure is already gone, and genetreatment wouldn't affect. Cell Repair restores base genetic code. Someone born infected has ONLY infected code, so there is nothing else to go on.

I'd say, MAYBE, cell repair could be used on born-infected to restore them to their original DNA, which is STILL infected. There is an implied equality in the above statement, but your essence is gone.

Way to cherrypick quotes instead of providing the whole thing.




Bam. No virus, no trouble. Infertile Infected gives two possibilities - and since its your character, you choose the background.

On a sidenote, I think this is entirely reasonable in-character when you consider a few simple things: HMHVV has been around for at least 50 years, Asamando was founded in 2030, and is one of the only places where surgery and augmentation for the Infected is readily available. Since this is a thing that only affects second-generation ghoul children, it makes sense that there would be quality-of-life treatments available after so many years and tons of research by everyone into finding a cure.
At least in our game, there's a link between Asamando and Universal Omnitech(one of the books or wikis or something spells them out as one of the only big corps to do business with them, probably through Debeers), and hey isn't it strange that UO is the only corporation with the secret of genetic revitalization that restores essence to normal people? Its almost like they had a bunch of test subjects that were missing essence.

As a GM, I would simply disallow that on the ground of "stop being a damned munchkin rules-lawyer - or find a different group to pester."

Seriously. By the RAW, you can't get geneware as an Infected, regardless of whether there's a live virus culture in your system or not. Period, end of story.

Udoshi, you're as munchkin as ever. Only you would have the gall to try and fluff your way out of a rule as clear as "Genetech augmentations of any sort are not available to the Infected at all". I appreciate that you did specify that it's 'super cheesy', though.

Dude, I think ya need to chill a bit. The rules say Ghouls lose a point of Essence, and they specifically say that gene tech can't restore that Essence. Using Infertile Infected to try and cheese out of the latter just ain't gonna work. Sorry.

If Pax and I agree on something, it's generally wise to pay attention.

I've always made the distinction that most of the high end stuff I come up with isn't suitable for normal play. There's a big difference between Theoretical Optimization and Shit Suitable For Actually Playing At A Table.




Normally I'd agree. But also say it doesn't work for a specific reason, instead of 'it just doesn't work.
And then they give you the option to eliminate that reason.
I'm of the mind that the rules should be considered as a whole - and that the "because X" clause is equally valid as the rest of the sentence it is attached to. You can't ignore part of the rule unless you want to invalidate the entire thing.

If Infertile Infected were meant to circumvent the ban on gene tech for Ghouls, then the quality would state that in the description. It doesn't state that, so it doesn't circumvent it. (Then there's the can-o-worms that is the fact that Infertile Infected is a Negative Quality and not a Positive Quality.)

I hate "the bad kind of" rules lawyers with an unholy passion.

So I'm going to do to you, what I always try to do to them: out-rules-lawyer you.

Revitalization genetech is based on the principle that essence loss represents accrued genetic damage - by mechanisms unspecified in nature. The tretment restores your natural genetic profile, thereby restoring lost essence.

The rules for the infected state that the ongoing presence of HMHVV retrovirals directly, and 100% effectively, counteract all geneware. So far so good, and so easy to take literally.

"BUT," you say, "with Infertile Infected, you could be born Infected and never have the retrovirus in your system ... so it's not there to counteract geneware!"

Yes, well ... remember the bit about "restoring your natural genetic profile" ...? For born Infected, Infected is their natural genetic profile. including, unfortunately for you, a racial essence of 5.

...

How's them apples, eh?

I really think you *can* and should ignore the 'because of X' clause. As we say, 'that's just fluff'. After all, the same arguments pop up with *everything*. Called Shot to a vulnerable spot? Well… we say that spirits don't have vulnerable spots. Etc.

Man, I really, really appreciate someone actually looking at the rules instead of just inserting their opinion on how things work in place of them.

So! Well played!

But I don't think you considered Revitalization as a pricier alternative.

Udoshi, I'm going to speak plainly. To put it bluntly: you were weasel-wording, and that is the worst kind of tomfoolery to play with the rules of an RPG there is. And generally, that would put you on my "watch list" for cheating, rules-lawyering, and munchkinism the first time it happened at one of my games. And courteously dis-invited, the second (or at most, third) time.

It's basically a form of cheating.

Dude, Pax, with how easy it seems to be for you to uninvite someone, I don't know how you keep any number of players, man. It's just a friggin' game...

There's a difference between building pun-pun and playing him at a table. A really, big one.(real games are about having fun. For everyone, not just you, including the gm, and bringing OP things to a real game ruins it for everyone.)
Get that through your head before losing your cool about optimization discussions online.
I'm aware of the difference, but I don't think you are.
You act like I actually play the things I come up with, instead of working to prove that they are possible

FYI, I am completely ignoring the gene therapy discussion. As a courtesy, I'd appreciate moving it to another topic if you wish to continue. Otherwise...

Thank you all for the help. I have a lot to consider. I have a few things to discuss with my GM before I stitch this thing up.

Someone on the Catalyst forums said I should make a Mystic Adept. This could help me against astral threats, but this never seemed like a good idea for any character, much less someone who's already suffering a 1-point essence loss. Spending 55 BP to get Magic 5 (4 if you take ware), which then has to be split between spellcasting Magic and Power Points just seems like a bad idea to me. Any thoughts?

Being dual natured kinda sucks, because most astral threats have some advantages against you. being a mystic adept means you're able to pose a threat back. Namely: Stunbolt.
As a handy plus, a dual-natured runner with Counterspelling is able to provide spell defense on both planes at once.

Unfortunately, its kind of expensive, and is way better in karmagen if your gm lets you initiate once.
Spending one point of adept powers on Heightened Concentration helps a lot with spell sustaining, and can let you be a nice team buffer.

It's an option, certainly.

You can shore up your spellcasting abilities with a Power Focus, even if you do a 2/2 split.

...

Alternately, to deal with the "problems" of beign Dual Natured? The Gaki (variant form of Ghoul) can astrally project. So, though it leaves your meat body laying ragdoll-limp, if something goes after you astrally, you can jump out of your body and say "Oh, REALLY?" ... up close and personal-like.










Yes, it's a game. A game played by more than one person.

One cheater undermines the enjoyment of the entire group. Ergo, if someone persists in cheating? In the interests of he multiple other people in that group, I remove the cheater. No gaming, is infinitely better than bad gaming.






The OP is genuinely asking for advice for how to build a character they will actually play "at a table".

There's optimisation for actual play ... an there's theorycrafting. This is the former, not the latter.

You might want to check out Distance Strike...I know, 2 Power Points and no discounts from a Way, but it bridges the gap between "melee range" and "sufficiently far away to find cover". And it works against projecting mages, too

Plus, it makes them defend as if you shot them: only Reaction or full dodge --> less dice either way

(o.O)
Actually, I DID cover that... using the same reasoning Pax did... w/e

Anyways, a Mystic Adept always has certain advantages of course, and definitely in astral combat, as you wouldn't need to take the Astral Perceiving power, being dual natured.

However, spellcasting drain resistance inherently leans toward mental stats, and your getting most of your boosts in the physical arena, as well as Charisma and Logic penalties. Not only that but it leaves a completely second set of skills you'd have to worry about beyond the necessary physical. It's possible, but depending on the BP max for your game, this could leave you spread quite thin.

If your game is 400 BP or less, OR your team or GM like heavily specializations (your team or your enemies), this could prove too disadvantageous, and I'd recommend against it.

If you are playing a higher power game, either with more BP or 6 dicepool or less enemies, then you could still pull it off fairly easily.