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Jaid
astral gateway has far more potential uses than getting to the metaplanes... uses like allowing your astrally projecting magicians to interact with people on the physical plane, for example (hey look, you just got powerbolted from nowhere! well, isn't that odd?)
Buster
Almost true. They'd see the shooter because they are now astrally perceiving which is the only way they could be targetted from the astral in the first place.
Particle_Beam
And powerbolt is a physical spell, so it can't be casted anyway. Manabolt on the other hand would work, but then again, they can now see you, and clobber you dead.
WhiskeyMac
I disagree with the statement that Shadowrun looks like all the other cyberpunk games out there. There was only 1 other cyberpunk game out there when Shadowrun came out. Well, maybe a few more dependant on your definition of cyberpunk. Cyberpunk can only be defined in so many ways before it becomes transhumanism, post-cyberpunk or any of the other multiple ways to explain what your genre is. Shadowrun was one of the original cyberpunk games and various other game companies are just trying to boost their sales by including the genre in their merchandise list.
Aaron
I'm lazy and also in a class, so I haven't read the thread. That said, I wonder if it isn't that tech is more pervasive than magic, but rather that tech is just more accessible to the average metahuman.
Jaid
QUOTE (Particle_Beam @ Jul 10 2007, 06:10 PM)
And powerbolt is a physical spell, so it can't be casted anyway. Manabolt on the other hand would work, but then again, they can now see you, and clobber you dead.

oh, they'll clobber me dead, will they?

and how, pray tell, are they going to do that? with their astral combat skill perhaps? the one they can't default on, for offense *or* defense?

or hey, maybe they'll try to shoot me... oh wait, since i'm not within the AOE of the power, their bullets stop being dual natured and pass right through me. (not that it technically can affect their bullets, since it's mana, but apparently the designers aren't worried about such petty details, and the power says it makes all objects in the area dual natured)...

seriously, mundanes shoved into an astral rift against a prepared opponent is just ridiculous. it's a slaughter, waiting to happen. it's kind of like taking a bunch of uncybered ordinary people with no combat skills, and putting them up against a fully cybered up combat specialised sammy with an ares alpha.

besides, this still ignores the fact that you can astrally project somewhere and then manipulate the physical objects in that area... step through a door, unlock it from the inside, for example.
Particle_Beam
Well, if we're going to be that technical, only a deep rift forces a mundane to astraly perceive or project, while a normal astral rift only grants the ability to perceive/project, so it's by their will. And astral gateway only creates astral rifts, not deep rifts.

As for astral combat, it seems that the developers once again forgot to include for the various awakened critters that they should be able to somehow fight against an astral entity, because so far, no awakened critter has per default any ability to attack anything on the astral plane, although background lore describes all the time how everybody who can afford it uses awakened critters against astral intruders.

Either that, or Frank's suggestion that 'Running Wild' may contain such rules holds true.
Perhaps we'll be lucky and they'll include this in a sixth errata version. nyahnyah.gif
Jaid
ok, so we still have mages who can pull the pin on your grenade from the astral, destroy all your gear with a good AOE spell, (clothes, weapons, armor, commlink, etc).

if you can't think up some horrible, horrible things to do to someone in that situation, then you shouldn't be playing shadowrun...
Particle_Beam
QUOTE (Jaid)
ok, so we still have mages who can pull the pin on your grenade from the astral, destroy all your gear with a good AOE spell, (clothes, weapons, armor, commlink, etc).

if you can't think up some horrible, horrible things to do to someone in that situation, then you shouldn't be playing shadowrun...

It depends about which spell we're talking. Physical spells still don't work in the astral space, so that's one less worry for the mundane interlopers. I don't think that anybody could care less if somebody killed (or perhaps only disrupted) the astral form of my gun, as long as my gun still works in the physical space, unaffected by any damage in the astral space it was inflicted. nyahnyah.gif

And I don't think that so many people walk around with grenades. Most weapons also are smart-and skin-linked and therefore safe from triggering by outside sources.
sunnyside
While it looks like we have some other rules debate brewing this is still only a semi novel ability. And its use as an offensive weapon could have been spelled out better.

Anyway street magic does add a lot of magical "stuff" to the world in general. Alchera and stuff. That might be enough to get the OP excited.

And I suppose on the table there is actually probably a goodly amount of variety among mages as metamagic selection will vary.
Particle_Beam
Yeah. Although most of the 'new' metamagic were combined into the older versions, or didn't need other as prerequisites.
Talia Invierno
And I'd really been hoping for more actual new, and less surface rewrite to take into account new rules.
PlatonicPimp
Everyone is casting this as a magic v technology thing. It's not.

In the first 2 editions, there were basically 4 archetypes: Sammies, Deckers, Riggers and mages. Look at those. 3 of the 4 are tech users, only one is a magic user. Of course there are 3 tech books to every one. And everyone uses guns.

by third edition, adepts finally gained enough depth to be considered a seperate archetype. by fourth the rigger is folding under the hacker somewhat, but the face is being recognized as a full archetype. So it's been shaken up. But rigger, decker, hacker, mage is still as ingrained to SR as fighter, mage, cleric, theif is to DnD.

Also, with each edition, he first thing to d is update previous material. So yes, a lot of magic stuff is the same for each edition. Here's the rub, though, In order to maintain beleivability, tech HAS to advance. It's been advancing in real life. People notice when the RL tech curve grows beyond that of SR. Since there's no real life magic, there's nothing for it to keep up with. New tech is introduced in game because new tech is introduced in RL. No new magic in real life, no need for more in game. At least, not for beleivabilities sake.

TonkaTuff
I think it makes internally-consistant sense for the progress of magic to be more focused on refinement instead of expansion. Magical development is going to be slowed by both it's relative rarity and the in-built limitations of the Art itself.

Of the tiny fraction of the world population that counts as Awakened at all, a scant few of them have the ability to actually cast spells or deal with spirits. Of those, even fewer have the temperament/ability/desire to do the research necessary to advance the art. And many of those who could/would are, naturally, focused in making what they do easier and less risky, rather than coming up with new ways to risk their lives and sanity. The practice of magic is incredibly dangerous - mess up, and you die. Or worse. So most people lucky enough to have magical ability aren't also suicidal enough to find throwing it away all that attractive. And, of course, those actively engaged in research and development have to work within the bounds of the available mana. 2070 is still very early in the millennia-long mana cycle, and there are some things that magic simply cannot do, even when the manasphere is at maximum saturation. So progress already has a built-in limiter, and it makes more financial sense to work on making what you do more effective than spending precious resources on something that might never work. The fact that the bounds of the Art have been pushed as far as they have within the gameworld is really nothing short of miraculous.

Technological progress, on the other hand, is basically only limited by the laws of physics (notoriously loopy in the SR universe), human/AI imagination, and how much time/capital they're willing to spend on it.
Talia Invierno
QUOTE (PlatonicPimp @ Jul 11 2007, 03:29 AM)
In the first 2 editions, there were basically 4 archetypes: Sammies, Deckers, Riggers and mages. Look at those. 3 of the 4 are tech users, only one is a magic user. Of course there are 3 tech books to every one. And everyone uses guns.

Hmm.

Among the 2e archetypes, I seem to remember tribesmen, street and "regular" shamans, combat mage (drawn as former corporate) and street mage, detective (proudly non-cybered), bodyguard, mercenary, ... and yes, the rigger, decker, and samurai: one each.

I honestly don't remember when the adept moved into the archetypes. Even without the adept though, that makes for a slightly different ratio.

I think the tribesman didn't use guns, or cyber.
bibliophile20
QUOTE (TonkaTuff)
I think it makes internally-consistant sense for the progress of magic to be more focused on refinement instead of expansion. Magical development is going to be slowed by both it's relative rarity and the in-built limitations of the Art itself.

Of the tiny fraction of the world population that counts as Awakened at all, a scant few of them have the ability to actually cast spells or deal with spirits. Of those, even fewer have the temperament/ability/desire to do the research necessary to advance the art. And many of those who could/would are, naturally, focused in making what they do easier and less risky, rather than coming up with new ways to risk their lives and sanity. The practice of magic is incredibly dangerous - mess up, and you die. Or worse. So most people lucky enough to have magical ability aren't also suicidal enough to find throwing it away all that attractive. And, of course, those actively engaged in research and development have to work within the bounds of the available mana. 2070 is still very early in the millennia-long mana cycle, and there are some things that magic simply cannot do, even when the manasphere is at maximum saturation. So progress already has a built-in limiter, and it makes more financial sense to work on making what you do more effective than spending precious resources on something that might never work. The fact that the bounds of the Art have been pushed as far as they have within the gameworld is really nothing short of miraculous.

That actually leads into an Earthdawn question I have: Earthdawn takes place much later in the mana cycle, just past the peak, if I understand correctly; if only about 1% of the population of the Sixth World is Awakened at this point in the cycle, how much of the population was Awakened in the Earthdawn setting, when it's much later in the cycle and the manasphere is much richer?
Talia Invierno
Good question.

Also keeping in mind that the 1% quote is now explicitly including everyone with the least scrap of magical talent.
Strobe
QUOTE (Talia Invierno)
Good question.

Also keeping in mind that the 1% quote is now explicitly including everyone with the least scrap of magical talent.

Well the 1% thing is and IC 1% right? So it doesn't cover all those people who don't think they have magic power but in fact do.

-Strobe
Talia Invierno
According to Street Magic (p.8), it does.
Strobe
QUOTE (Talia Invierno)
According to Street Magic (p.cool.gif, it does.

Well, there you go. I guess I should read Street Magic.

-Strobe
Talia Invierno
Sorry. I'm used to people having texts on hand much more than I. Here's the reference:
QUOTE
Everybody's heard the statistics that say approximately one percent of people are magically active, but like most statistics, that's not really accurate.  For one thing, that number encompasses everybody who has a shred of magical talent, from minor-league adepts all the way up to spellslingers with enough mojo to give dragons a second thought about snacking on them.  Just because one percent of people are magical doesn't mean that one in every hundred people you see on the street is secretly reading your mind.

And thus dies the Dumpshock tradition of arguing over exactly what "a percentage" means.
Shinobi Killfist
Well considering how new we are into the system like all games I expect the mostly reprint of old stuff thing to happen in the main book and first magic book. And still there are some things that if not actually new, gave a new feel to the system which was nice.

Still I'd like some new things beyond that, like new area of effect types. like some cone spells, or since its a world with auto fire weapons, maybe some R&D guys put time into auto fire spells.

And I miss some of the losses form earlier editions. I was very disappointed when the Ram spell just became a powerbolt only useable against objects. I think it was 3rd edition when it happened, crappy decision then sucks that it still is that way.
Sterling
Keep in mind, from a mechanic standpoint magic far outweighs tech.

A Street Samurai is limited in how much tech they can wear, have crammed into their body, and hold. Your average GM is going to vary about carry and holding, but the essence of a (meta)human is six, and short of Cybermancy (and good luck on that) you can't cram more than six points of essence worth of tech into a meat body.

So in that limited capacity, there lies endless variation. A starting character can, with cyberware, become moderately powerful, but their maximum potential peaks early and hits that six essence plateau. They can upgrade, but that's so cash intensive at the higher levels that by that point, the character might be thinking of retiring instead of trying to afford 400k beta wired 3. Karma costs aren't as severe, since all you really need to be a cyber/bioware character is cold hard cash. Even with deltaware halving the essence costs, you're still capped at a hard 5.999 essence.

Magically active characters are not limited, since they can initiate. This means that barring death, there's no upper limit to the power and mastery of a magician or physical adept. They have no upper limits on spell force (it's tied to magic) and can eventually learn more (if not all) spells.

If I gave one player an unlimited budget and no availability restrictions, they could build a very powerful cybered/biowared character. But they would hit that essence cap and be stopped. Once the cyberware is capped, the only advancement open to them is by skills, and with unlimited karma to boot, they would cap out at each skill at 6, maybe 8 with specialization.

If I give another player unlimited karma and cash, and they chose a magically active character, the player would have to get tired of doing the math before their mage would stop progressing. Sure, they have a skill cap same as the cybered character, but their magic attribute has no upper limit. They would know every spell and be able to cast it at a force that would be practically impossible to resist by the ubercybered samurai. Theoretically, the magically active character could duplicate the cybered character's ware almost completely and still have a magic attribute, which nudges the balance towards the mage. Realistically, the mystic adept would be able to outperform the samurai as they have stat*+skill (max 6/7+spec)+improved ability (capped at skill) for tests, plus additional spells. (*This holds that both the cyber and magic characters have a hard cap on stats per RAW).

The above example just illustrates that while a tech-based character is more powerful at character creation, it reaches a plateau at some point where any further investment of cash or karma brings severely diminishing returns (20% essence reduction for double cost, ending at a 50% reduction for ten times the cost). In comparison, the magic-based character's potential never ceases as long as karma keeps flowing, i.e., the game continues as long as possible.

This means that for a limited amount of karma and cash, there needs to be more versatility in the cyber and bioware areas since their effectiveness has a finite cap.
Wakshaani
I still use a magic cap, personally.

Trolls 1/5
Elves 2/7
Everyone else 1/6

As with other stats, you can go to 1.5 times as high as your normal limit, due to, say, Initiation. (Thus, Magic 7, 10, and 9 cap, respectively)

Added also a "Magical Prodigy" quality for 20 points, to raise the limit by 1. (6, 8, and 7 respectively.

No one's ever reached the Initiation limit that this implies (Magic cap of 9 means Initiate 9 at the top), but, the fact that there *is* a cap, even if it won't be reached, is really helpful.

Try it sometime. smile.gif

(Edit)

Important bit that I forgot to mention! Done this way, essence loss lowers your maximum magic, not yoru CURRENT magic. Thus, if someone had lost 2 Essence to cyberware, he could have a Magic attribute as high as 4, which would have a cap with Initiation of 6. If he only started with 3-4 Magic, he, thus, wouldn't feel the bite, but, his long term advancement would be 'Crippled' by teh addition of cyber.

It looks a bit harsh, but, it feels better, overall, and doesn't penalize characters at chargen.
Ravor
You know, I always get a good chuckle whenever someone brings up the fact that Mages have "unlimited advancement" while mundanes have a built in hard cap. Although true it's meaningless because it requires a situation which will never really come up, that of having unlimited Karma. (Plus I'd like to see this mystical uber Mage actually try to cast one of his Force 'X' spells without turning into a fine red mist from the Drain.)

Although I do really like the idea of hard capping Magic, if for no other reason then to get rid of this straw man once and for all. (Personally I think I'd cap everyone at the same level myself, since I personally don't see Magic as favoring any one race over another., elves aren't really any more magical then any other race, they just get better PR.) cyber.gif
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (Ravor)
Although true it's meaningless because it requires a situation which will never really come up, that of having unlimited Karma.

Right, it's only a problem when you're talking about immortal elves, dragons, and emo samurai campaigns. biggrin.gif
Ravor
Well two out of three are NPCs and thus have whatever the DM wants them to have anyways, as for Emo, well from my impression of his campaigns, the mundanes get some really awesome toys as well. cyber.gif
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (Talia Invierno)
QUOTE (PlatonicPimp @ Jul 11 2007, 03:29 AM)
In the first 2 editions, there were basically 4 archetypes: Sammies, Deckers, Riggers and mages. Look at those. 3 of the 4 are tech users, only one is a magic user. Of course there are 3 tech books to every one. And everyone uses guns.

Hmm.

Among the 2e archetypes, I seem to remember tribesmen, street and "regular" shamans, combat mage (drawn as former corporate) and street mage, detective (proudly non-cybered), bodyguard, mercenary, ... and yes, the rigger, decker, and samurai: one each.

I honestly don't remember when the adept moved into the archetypes. Even without the adept though, that makes for a slightly different ratio.

I think the tribesman didn't use guns, or cyber.

...In SR1 there was also the Sprawl Ganger, the *ahem* Elven Decker (other than pointy ears didn't see what made her any more special that she would be her own distinct Archetype), and one of my favourites, The Rocker.

...The Rocker and Ganger could just as well be awakened, but as for the Elven Decker, back then Magic & the Matrix just didn't mix well.
tisoz
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid @ Jul 11 2007, 04:30 PM)
...In SR1 there was also the Sprawl Ganger, the *ahem* Elven Decker (other than pointy ears didn't see what made her any more special that she would be her own distinct Archetype)

I seem to recall in SR1 that metahumans were adverse to getting cyberware. Orks had that one buggy eye, elves were vegetarians, and they all had some kind of allergy. My point being, that the elf that decided to embrace technology and get some cyber to surf the matrix may have been against type and thus worthy of its own Archetype. Maybe?
Sterling
I wouldn't personally put a hard cap on the magic stat in my games, but that's my choice. Your games are yours to houserule as you will.

Magic is very karma heavy, we all seem to agree on that. But the one factor that's been left out is the ability to create new spells, which has never been matched by a 'design your own cyberware' ruleset. That's why there only needs to be one book for the magically active, as there's the ability to create spells. This does leave the adepts out in the cold, however.

But if I played a mage in a game with a hard cap on magic, the second I hit the magic cap, that's my cue to start buying cyberware a point at a time. Lose a point of magic, then initiate again to hit the cap, and repeat until I was all cybered out. The magically active character has nothing to lose by cybering up if there's a finite limit to magic.

@ Ravor, if I was a mage with a magic of 8, (grade 2 plus magic of 6), throwing a force 8 stunball would only net me 5 boxes of stun if I failed to even try to resist. That's survivable, considering I could easily throw edge, etc to get as close as I could to the cap of 8 hits. That's a 16 DV stunball for only 5 stun. Sure, 5 stun is not pleasant, but the result was worth it. I doubt anything in the spell radius would be left standing.
Talia Invierno
@ tisoz: maybe. I hadn't considered it, but it would make sense.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (tisoz)
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid @ Jul 11 2007, 04:30 PM)
...In SR1 there was also the Sprawl Ganger, the *ahem* Elven Decker (other than pointy ears didn't see what made her any more special that she would be her own distinct Archetype)

I seem to recall in SR1 that metahumans were adverse to getting cyberware. Orks had that one buggy eye, elves were vegetarians, and they all had some kind of allergy. My point being, that the elf that decided to embrace technology and get some cyber to surf the matrix may have been against type and thus worthy of its own Archetype. Maybe?

..So by that token, there should also have been the Elven Street Samurai and Elven Rigger Archetypes.

(just playing the "DA" on this).
tisoz
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)
QUOTE (tisoz)
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid @ Jul 11 2007, 04:30 PM)
...In SR1 there was also the Sprawl Ganger, the *ahem* Elven Decker (other than pointy ears didn't see what made her any more special that she would be her own distinct Archetype)
I seem to recall in SR1 that metahumans were adverse to getting cyberware. Orks had that one buggy eye, elves were vegetarians, and they all had some kind of allergy. My point being, that the elf that decided to embrace technology and get some cyber to surf the matrix may have been against type and thus worthy of its own Archetype. Maybe?
..So by that token, there should also have been the Elven Street Samurai and Elven Rigger Archetypes.

(just playing the "DA" on this).

The Elven St. Samurai turned up in one of, if not the first, supplement - The Street Samurai Catalog, along with the Ork, Dwarf, and Troll St. Samurai. Incidently, the Ork in the illustration was not bug-eyed and they made a point of presenting him as refined in the illustration and accompanying text.

Was the Dwarf Rigger called that as an archetype, or is it just generally agreed that a dwarf makes a very good rigger?
Ravor
Sterling no, because even with a hard cap on Magic, lost Essense would still lower your maxium Magic just like it does today. *Edit* Just to clarify the Magic Cap Equation might look somthing like this: ( Hard Magic Cap = 6*1.5 - Essense Loss ). All Initiation does is allow you to increase your Magic beyond ( 6 - Essense Loss ), it doesn't directly raise the hard cap. */Edit*

As for your example using a Force 8 Stunball, sure, hells in theory it's possible to cast and survive the drain from a Force 12 Fireball as a starting character. I guess I should have been more clear, but I assumed that since we were talking about the mythical uber-Mage built with untold amounts of Karma people would understand that I wasn't referring to something that a runner straight out of the crackerjack box could do.
Talia Invierno
QUOTE (bibliophile20)
QUOTE (TonkaTuff @ Jul 10 2007, 11:43 PM)
I think it makes internally-consistant sense for the progress of magic to be more focused on refinement instead of expansion. Magical development is going to be slowed by both it's relative rarity and the in-built limitations of the Art itself.

Of the tiny fraction of the world population that counts as Awakened at all, a scant few of them have the ability to actually cast spells or deal with spirits. Of those, even fewer have the temperament/ability/desire to do the research necessary to advance the art. And many of those who could/would are, naturally, focused in making what they do easier and less risky, rather than coming up with new ways to risk their lives and sanity. The practice of magic is incredibly dangerous - mess up, and you die. Or worse. So most people lucky enough to have magical ability aren't also suicidal enough to find throwing it away all that attractive. And, of course, those actively engaged in research and development  have to work within the bounds of the available mana. 2070 is still very early in the millennia-long mana cycle, and there are some things that magic simply cannot do, even when the manasphere is at maximum saturation. So progress already has a built-in limiter, and it makes more financial sense to work on making what you do more effective than spending precious resources on something that might never work. The fact that the bounds of the Art have been pushed as far as they have within the gameworld is really nothing short of miraculous.

That actually leads into an Earthdawn question I have: Earthdawn takes place much later in the mana cycle, just past the peak, if I understand correctly; if only about 1% of the population of the Sixth World is Awakened at this point in the cycle, how much of the population was Awakened in the Earthdawn setting, when it's much later in the cycle and the manasphere is much richer?

QUOTE (Talia Invierno)
Good question.

Also keeping in mind that the 1% quote is now explicitly including everyone with the least scrap of magical talent.

I now have an answer for this. (A player of mine reads these boards, caught this thread, and looked it up.) The premise of Earthdawn is that everyone is magically active: but not everyone has learned the discipline to channel it into one of the known PC adept paths.
bibliophile20
Ah, so probably by 2100, maybe 2% will be magically active and so forth until the peak of the magic cycle, when the majority or nearly everyone is awakened.

Thanks!
eidolon
I like to think that even at the pinnacle, it would be much less drastic than that. Maybe 2.5%, and then it starts to wane again.

To me, that would be far more interesting (and dystopian, in a way) than a constant increase.

I also loathe any connection between ED and SR, though, so take that how you will.
FrankTrollman
It should have been 2% in Street Magic honestly. The number of magical people has supposedly been going up since 2011. But in 2050 they straight up said that 1% of the population was a magician. In 2070 only 1% of the population has a magic rating - which means that the number of magicians has actually fallen in the last 20 years by a huge amount.

It irks me no little bit.

-Frank
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (eidolon)
To me, that would be far more interesting (and dystopian, in a way) than a constant increase.

Yeah 100% could be boring, but think about this:
What about when 95% of the population is magically active. How does the remaining 5% get treated? (adjust percentages to fit your palate) Are they mundane freaks? Simply pitied? Cyber-whackos just trying to keep up? Pretty darn dystopic for them. So it could work, if you focus on the right group. smile.gif
eidolon
True, hadn't thought about that.

But magic is my least favorite aspect of the SR world. I like it, but it's the kid you have to try to love.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (eidolon)
I also loathe any connection between ED and SR, though, so take that how you will.

...I'm with you on that one. I already have enough of a "cash sink" with SR & the game that should not be mentioned here to deal with buying yet another set of rulebooks, which I will probably never use except as reference material.

I appreciate SR for what it is in the "future present".
Synner667
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid @ Jul 11 2007, 08:30 PM)
QUOTE (Talia Invierno)
QUOTE (PlatonicPimp @ Jul 11 2007, 03:29 AM)
In the first 2 editions, there were basically 4 archetypes: Sammies, Deckers, Riggers and mages. Look at those. 3 of the 4 are tech users, only one is a magic user. Of course there are 3 tech books to every one. And everyone uses guns.

Hmm.

Among the 2e archetypes, I seem to remember tribesmen, street and "regular" shamans, combat mage (drawn as former corporate) and street mage, detective (proudly non-cybered), bodyguard, mercenary, ... and yes, the rigger, decker, and samurai: one each.

I honestly don't remember when the adept moved into the archetypes. Even without the adept though, that makes for a slightly different ratio.

I think the tribesman didn't use guns, or cyber.

...In SR1 there was also the Sprawl Ganger, the *ahem* Elven Decker (other than pointy ears didn't see what made her any more special that she would be her own distinct Archetype), and one of my favourites, The Rocker.

...The Rocker and Ganger could just as well be awakened, but as for the Elven Decker, back then Magic & the Matrix just didn't mix well.

Hi,

This kind of relates to what I originally said about SR.

SR has, by and large, become a game about mercs'n'crims..
..Which is great for gunbunnies and people who want an excuse for being 'bad'.

The concept of playing a Detective, Journalist, Rocker, AmerIndian Tribal isn't really there anymore..
..Which is a shame, as it really limits how the world of SR is.


I think the thing about the Elven Decker was that people coming to SR were expected to be Fantasy RPG'ers and they all expected Elves to be treehuggers - So a techie Elf would be a big departure [Dodger, where you now ??]


I think SR4 has some great things in it, and I do think that developing the technology developing the magical theories and having the options for different gear is great [though it's literally becoming other games - rules from Aeon, names from CP2020]..
..But gear is an easy choice, and easy to do - so no wonder the SR people pump out as much as possible, or rewrite sourcebooks yet again.

For me [and, obviously, these are MY thoughts], most of the spellbooks/gunbooks/matrixbooks/cyberbooks add little to my games - Not least because I don't allow players to browse through books, they have access to only what their contacts have available. Most of the stuff in books just isn't available.


I already use source material from GURPS, HERO, Aeon, Traveller, CP2020, CoC, Bubblegum Crisis, FUSION, TORG, Mage and Earthdawn..
..So I already have more guns, vehicles, spells, enemies and locations than SR can ever supply me with - and only the stuff that fits my world/campaign gets used.


Just my thruppence..
mfb
i'm not sure it's become that. it's always been centered around criminals who do crimes in hopes of getting paid for it. detectives, journalists, gangers, rockers, and the like have always been presented in the light of how they relate to shadowrunning.
Kyoto Kid
...In addition to the "standard" Sourcebooks, I also include Raygun's Firearms and my own expansion (vehicles), Dynamo Jo's Garage. I tend to stay way from non SR sources for I find it's is more work to adapt than to just write things up from scratch.

[edit to include mfb's response]

In previous editions I had PCs who were an Archaeologist/Academic , a Cybersnoop, an ex-Baseball Player (who's favourite attack was the beanball), a Classical Pianist (with flashbacks that kept her from performing), a Wilderness Guide, an ex-Cosmonaut/Doctor, and a self styled Inventrix. All were very viable characters and worked very well.

Waiting in the wings (some rewritten for SR4) are a Big Game (Paranormal) Hunter, A "retired" Urban Brawl star, a street kid con artist, and another Reporter adept (yes she has improved ability in News Gathering).
Shrike30
I really don't have a problem with the amount of tech supplements we've got on hand. EVERY CHARACTER can use tech. Not every character is going to get wired reflexes jammed into his body, but they all have the option, and all the non-cyber tech is usable by everyone without having to worry about essence loss.

The vast majority of the contents of the magic books are only usable by magicians.

So, yeah, there should be more tech books than magic books. More players are going to want the contents.
Wakshaani
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)
...In addition to the "standard" Sourcebooks, I also include Raygun's Firearms and my own expansion (vehicles), Dynamo Jo's Garage. \

*Perk*

Garage, you say?

I might have to lean on you later. smile.gif
Da9iel
In relation to the 1% with any scrap or magic quote; the text implies that relatively few of that 1% are trained magicians/adepts/mystic adepts. But each magical quality in SR4 has the text something to the effect of "While this quality is inexpensive, it should only be taken by players who intend to play their character as a magic user/adept/mystic adept." That would imply most people with any scrap of magical talent are trained in their arts. Am I missing something that would make the fluff jive with the rules?
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (Da9iel)
In relation to the 1% with any scrap or magic quote; the text implies that relatively few of that 1% are trained magicians/adepts/mystic adepts. But each magical quality in SR4 has the text something to the effect of "While this quality is inexpensive, it should only be taken by players who intend to play their character as a magic user/adept/mystic adept." That would imply most people with any scrap of magical talent are trained in their arts. Am I missing something that would make the fluff jive with the rules?

Nope.
  • Every edition they claim that the number of magicians is increasing.
  • Every edition they add more types of limited awakenings.
  • Every edition they don't update the 1% awakened statistic.

So yeah, every edition the number of magicians goes down adn they say that the number of magicians goes up. It doesn't jive at all.

-Frank
Talia Invierno
Ironic, isn't it?
QUOTE (Da9iel)
In relation to the 1% with any scrap or magic quote; the text implies that relatively few of that 1% are trained magicians/adepts/mystic adepts. But each magical quality in SR4 has the text something to the effect of "While this quality is inexpensive, it should only be taken by players who intend to play their character as a magic user/adept/mystic adept." That would imply most people with any scrap of magical talent are trained in their arts. Am I missing something that would make the fluff jive with the rules?

I assume the text refers specifically to PCs rather than NPCs, who would constitute by far the majority of the Awakened population.
PlatonicPimp
Well, the number of magicians may be increasing, but perhaps the general population is increasing faster.

That would fit all the statements.
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