Ah, i see your confusion. Whilst you may state quantitive fact (i use the word tentatively, citing your sources would be useful if credibility is to be ascertained), i was dealing with an entirely qualitative situation where quantitive information would only be useful as a guide at best.
If presented with a troll (or orc), as per your example, (either thaumaturgically or technologically altered to look human) and you had no idea he was a troll (or orc), would you be able to tell that they were, in fact, a troll (or orc) whilst dealing with them?
No, you would just assume that it was a human that was particularly slow on the up-take. That was my point which you thoroughly failed to grasp.
As for your test results, how do they compare the "average" troll or orc's state of living to the "average" humans? It's well documented that diet and environment make significant impacts on the cognitive abilities of a developing child. Similarly how do the results for the tests stated, by you, come out for Elves and Dwarves? I was originally referring to all metatypes when referring to "changed ones" as DLN so delicately puts it. How do the results come out for Night Ones? Fomori? Goblins? Gnomes? or any other metavariant?
Odd that you only state "facts" that support your argument and leave out anything else that might discredit it. However, if you wish to present further "Facts" feel free, i would only be too happy to review them and discuss with you further. Until then may i say that only having one number on the national lottery does not make you a jackpot winner, if you get my meaning.
If you wish for me to check my reality, please ensure that both of us first share the same one.
Ta Ta
~C
Full Version: Self expression Sota
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| The average Troll is not capable of identifying an object presented briefly and then hidden. |
Is that including the -4TN for "action very obvious"?
The game mechanics are abstract, and turning Perception Test mechanics into "real world" data REALLY doesn't work.
[ Spoiler ]
| QUOTE (Snow_Fox) |
| If we didn't, we wouldn't be here and I'm still looking for the Catholic church, as a survvinig element of the Roman government to pay my family back for Alesia. Keep it current day before we start discussing slaughtering Ainu and Wounded Knee. |
Why blame Italians for ancestors you lost at the battle of Alesia? Vercingetorix was as much to blame for what happened as Caesar. More, in fact, by my take. After all, if I kicked my wife and kids out of my house and let them starve to death in hopes that there'd be enough food for me to ride out the a SWAT siege, I think I'd be more responsible for their deaths than Lone Star.
Your defense of the changed ones, and your assumption of my racist beliefs is based on a false premise, that is that the changed ones are normal people. They are not. Your own family history shows this. The first ones changed and suffered terribly. Like survivors of nuclear attacks they were twisted and tortured by events beyond their control. They then proceeded to pass on their damaged DNA to further generations that were spared the trauma of the initial change but are still carrying the flawed DNA.
This set of circumstances created a group of flawed beings who are trying their best to make their way in a harsh world. You are making a brave attempt and getting by but to claim that you are the same as humans just fails to recognize the the truth of the matter. As for the suggestion that you can alter changed ones to pass as humans, I would say that plastic surgery can repair the damage to victims of nuclear attack so they appear normal but this does not undo the fact their DNA is changed and they will pass their defects on to their children.
This set of circumstances created a group of flawed beings who are trying their best to make their way in a harsh world. You are making a brave attempt and getting by but to claim that you are the same as humans just fails to recognize the the truth of the matter. As for the suggestion that you can alter changed ones to pass as humans, I would say that plastic surgery can repair the damage to victims of nuclear attack so they appear normal but this does not undo the fact their DNA is changed and they will pass their defects on to their children.
| QUOTE (Daddy's Little Ninja) |
| Your defense of the changed ones, and your assumption of my racist beliefs is based on a false premise, that is that the changed ones are normal people. They are not. |
This is an interesting point. When trying to convince someone like DLN, you can't try to argue that non-human metas are "human" since she's already taken it as axiomatic that they are not.
A better way might be to accept for the moment the premise that non-human metas are not human, at all, in any way, and then from there formulate an argument for why they deserve to be treated fairly and in the same way as sapiens sapiens anyway.
In other words, you might be better off making an argument for the equal treatment/opportunity of all sapients, from which the equality of metas follows, rather than going back and forth on the "are metas human?" issue.
Maybe.
They are treated fairly. I have merely argued that they are different and these differences have to be recognized. People who want to sit around signing kum-by-ah and pretending we are all the same are failing to recognize the truth of the modern world. this is not a matter of skin color or the shape of eyes but very definite changes in DNA. And before anyone starts laying out the genome I will point out how similar the DNA of people and chimpanzees are. But no one would claim that a chimp should be working as a CEO of a corp, And that's Sam Villiers' opinion not withstanding.
Actually, there are no changes in the DNA itself, just in which parts of it are active. This results in different RNA creation at different times, but the DNA is unchanged from what it was before. If you wish to claim they are a different species, you will need to also reject their entire ancestries as imposters hiding behind human form.
No matter what study you look at, 0% is a lot different than 1.5% or 6%, so your whole issue with chimpanzees is a pathetic smokescreen.
No matter what study you look at, 0% is a lot different than 1.5% or 6%, so your whole issue with chimpanzees is a pathetic smokescreen.
| QUOTE (Daddy's Little Ninja) |
| They are treated fairly. I have merely argued that they are different and these differences have to be recognized. People who want to sit around signing kum-by-ah and pretending we are all the same are failing to recognize the truth of the modern world. this is not a matter of skin color or the shape of eyes but very definite changes in DNA. And before anyone starts laying out the genome I will point out how similar the DNA of people and chimpanzees are. But no one would claim that a chimp should be working as a CEO of a corp, And that's Sam Villiers' opinion not withstanding. |
Indeed, people are different. I'm human, like you, but because of my Scandinavian heritage, I'm likely much taller and much stronger than you. It's not your fault you are from East Asian stock. You are shorter and smaller, and less physically capable. You should be pitied. I know I feel sorry for you.
I believe the One Ronin has refuted you with a call to absurdity. Well done.
I'm not a biotechnician or a cyberdoc or any of those things, and I'm neither trained nor interested in debating the finer points of what constitutes human in a philosophical sense. But I can tell you this much: a large Japanese company has paid me to work for them all my adult life, and has rewarded me for both loyalty and the quality of work I do for them. I am well taken care of specifically because at a young age, I performed above and beyond those around me. I distinguished myself by purity of action and purity of spirit. Because I wanted to be somebody when I grew up, I pushed myself and did everything I could to learn more, be stronger, strike harder, outhink everyone in my way and be in the front of the line when my company was looking at prospective employees.
Treatment should follow ability and action, not potential. The average clock-puncher downtown has no drive to better himself, has no drive to dedicate himself to an idea, and has no drive reach his potential. Do we reward the clock-puncher for what he's done, or what he might be able to do if he applies himself? We do not pay smart people to slack off, nor do we value inaction in the face of possibility. We value only what one does.
I can do my job longer, harder, with greater accuracy than most of my human counterparts. I can pull more than my 'fair share' of gear in the field. I am faster to recognize threats and eliminate them because I have trained myelf to be so. I'll respect any human that can do the same or more than me, because he's made something of himself. But my 'tainted' genes of of higher value than most of the 'pure' ones in my unit, specifically because I have proven to my superiors that I am very good at my job. Sure, I'm not a scientist. But neither was Oe Kenzaburo, Kawabata Yasunari, or Mishima Yukio. The ability to crunch numbers does not preclude an individual from being equally or more valuable than any other counterpart.
I don't need your pity, and I don't need your protection. You need mine.
<<<Blue Line>>>
I'm not a biotechnician or a cyberdoc or any of those things, and I'm neither trained nor interested in debating the finer points of what constitutes human in a philosophical sense. But I can tell you this much: a large Japanese company has paid me to work for them all my adult life, and has rewarded me for both loyalty and the quality of work I do for them. I am well taken care of specifically because at a young age, I performed above and beyond those around me. I distinguished myself by purity of action and purity of spirit. Because I wanted to be somebody when I grew up, I pushed myself and did everything I could to learn more, be stronger, strike harder, outhink everyone in my way and be in the front of the line when my company was looking at prospective employees.
Treatment should follow ability and action, not potential. The average clock-puncher downtown has no drive to better himself, has no drive to dedicate himself to an idea, and has no drive reach his potential. Do we reward the clock-puncher for what he's done, or what he might be able to do if he applies himself? We do not pay smart people to slack off, nor do we value inaction in the face of possibility. We value only what one does.
I can do my job longer, harder, with greater accuracy than most of my human counterparts. I can pull more than my 'fair share' of gear in the field. I am faster to recognize threats and eliminate them because I have trained myelf to be so. I'll respect any human that can do the same or more than me, because he's made something of himself. But my 'tainted' genes of of higher value than most of the 'pure' ones in my unit, specifically because I have proven to my superiors that I am very good at my job. Sure, I'm not a scientist. But neither was Oe Kenzaburo, Kawabata Yasunari, or Mishima Yukio. The ability to crunch numbers does not preclude an individual from being equally or more valuable than any other counterpart.
I don't need your pity, and I don't need your protection. You need mine.
<<<Blue Line>>>
Brava!
Ironically, having worked with DLN several times, I can say she has no problems working with metas, no I'm human, and more than once has put her own hoop on the line to cover chummers who happen to be orks or dwarves.
| QUOTE (Daddy's Little Ninja) |
| But no one would claim that a chimp should be working as a CEO of a corp, |
Oh, I don't know, That depends on the chimp. If the chimp proved itself capable, by say moving up the corporate ladder, I'd be OK with it. This is a rather interesting coincidence because my current work happens to be with chimps modified with cerebral boosters and encephalons. I can't share our results before we publish, obviously, but lets just say that you may have communicated with some of our subjects via the matrix and not known it.
DLN, it seems you and I are destined to beleive opposite things. You've stated that before that "segregation doesn't work," and that changed ones should be put to the roles they best fit. It's that kind of attitude that leads to a permanent underclass based on metatype. The truth is, humans aren't the only ones more comfortable with their own kind. What was so dispicable about Yomi was not that Metahumans were separate, but that relocation was not volintary, and living conditions were horrible, and the colony was not self-sufficient. What is so terrible about the Tirs is not that they are elven nations, but that they are facist nations. On the other end of this, I would give the example of the orc underground, the dwarven and troll nations of deutchland, and several metahuman-specific tribes in tribal lands around the world. Metas who live surrounded by others of their metatype are happier. Their specific needs are met better. Now, an orc community will have the similar economic and social need to a human community (perhaps a few more dentists), and those needs will have to be filled within the community. This is why it's so vital to have orc scientists, orc CEOs, orc everything. It's so orcs can do for themselves. This is especially true for dwarves and trolls, who have great difficulty in a world built for different sized people. If they were in their own communities, there would be less issues. The key is self-segregation and self-sufficiency.
Finally, Someone suggested ceding DLN the issue, at least for this argument, that metahumans aren't human. There's two concept wrapped up in here. I will fully cede that fact that metahumans aren't Human, in the sense that human is a subtype of Homo sapiens, and other metatypes are different. It's equivalent to saying an orcc is not a dwarf. It's accurate.
Hoewever, DLN also states that metahumans aren't People. This I will fight, till the end of my days. The suggestion was that we convince DLN that metas are worthy of resppect despite not being human. But in the sense that human and person are synonymous (a holdover from a time when the only people were human), we can't do that. Being a person is defined by that respect. You can't say a someone is both not a person and worthy of respect. Denying someones personhood is the epitome of disrespect.
I think you are right in saying we will not agree on some issues. I hope you will believe that I do hope you and your kind do find happiness in this world.
And so there is an accord. Not a resolution but a uneasy cease fire, shall we say.
Incidently, Mr Croup the weather is some what petulant, closer to a English April despite the longitude.
I also have a mind to commission your good self and your partner with a little incidental activity. Majoring in your bespoke specialization. You know how I like to discharge things personally but tomorrow evening I find my self engaged. I will of course include the particulars in private transmission. Travel will be required.
Incidently, Mr Croup the weather is some what petulant, closer to a English April despite the longitude.
I also have a mind to commission your good self and your partner with a little incidental activity. Majoring in your bespoke specialization. You know how I like to discharge things personally but tomorrow evening I find my self engaged. I will of course include the particulars in private transmission. Travel will be required.
I'll accept your well wishes, DLN, but I'm still holding for the admission that I am a person. It's not about happiness ("I demand the right to be unhappy"), it's about respect.
Never before have I heard such disgusting, short-sighted humanist drivel.
The Humanis Policlub, and anyone who support them, are no better (and no less frightening) than the Universal Brotherhood.
[Nice IC dialogue we've got here.]
The Humanis Policlub, and anyone who support them, are no better (and no less frightening) than the Universal Brotherhood.
[Nice IC dialogue we've got here.]
| QUOTE (Pendaric) |
| I also have a mind to commission your good self and your partner with a little incidental activity. Majoring in your bespoke specialization. You know how I like to discharge things personally but tomorrow evening I find my self engaged. I will of course include the particulars in private transmission. Travel will be required. |
Pendaric, dearest of all my friends, I must apologise whole heartedly for the tardiness of my reply, it seems that myself and my esteemed colleague were already away on business when you last posted. We have literally just finished wiping down the surfaces and putting the last fine fettle to our professional equipment, but we'd be delighted to accept your commission if the offer is still open. My only wish is that this one has a little more stamina, the last commission you asked of us was woefully and dissapointingly short lived despite being such a large "job" as it were. My esteemed colleague was quite beside himself at the end.
I also trust that the usual arrangements will be observed? We both know that my esteemed colleague has certain needs that have to be catered for to ensure optimal performance...
Ah, anyway, i'm sure you'll be in touch and i have said quite enough about this on open channels. You will have to forgive this little indiscretion, you know how excited i can get before a commission.
As to the "uneasy ceasefire" that has occured, it is a shame that today amongst such intellectual beings that we could not come to a resolution to this discussion. However, i'm sure in good time that one will be forthcoming and for some, I suspect, sooner than they think.
In the meantime I spy something beginning with D..
Ta Ta
~C
I think it's the best resolution you can hope for. DLN is a professional and has no trouble working with metas but she's pretty well set in her ways with regard to the world view. I'm sure she's thinking you guys are the intractable noes not recognizing the truth-as she sees it.
Japan just doesn't change until things are rammed down their throats. then they embrace it. fate hasn't forced the metas yet. Assuming DLN is typical of Japanese conservative thought, she revers in the emperor and if he leads them...
Japan just doesn't change until things are rammed down their throats. then they embrace it. fate hasn't forced the metas yet. Assuming DLN is typical of Japanese conservative thought, she revers in the emperor and if he leads them...
| QUOTE (Snow_Fox) |
| Assuming DLN is typical of Japanese conservative thought, |
Conservative? I am a member of the Liberal Democratic Party!
| QUOTE (Daddy's Little Ninja) | ||
Conservative? I am a member of the Liberal Democratic Party! |
Which isn't and never was either democratic or liberal
Most governments rarely are. Cast your eyes upon my own fair Isle for a sterling example of hypocrisy in action. If i could, i'm sure i would shed a tear for how far it has fallen and learnt so little. Eventually wiser heads will surely prevail once the less wiser ones are seen off. Of that i'm quite sure.
| QUOTE (Mr. Croup) |
| Eventually wiser heads will surely prevail once the less wiser ones are seen off. Of that i'm quite sure. |
Yeah, nobody's ever thought that way before.
Why, whatever do you mean?
In our line of business my esteemed Mr Croup, even in Cromwellian methods there will always be ample opportunity for enlightened distraction and advancement.
As always I strive for a politer world. A more civil, if not civilized world.
Consequently your intention for further employment by suggestion is wasted in this clientele.
As always I strive for a politer world. A more civil, if not civilized world.
Consequently your intention for further employment by suggestion is wasted in this clientele.
The Liberal Democratic party rebuilt the Japanese economy after WW2 and provided a constant guiding hand leading to today's dominance of the global economy.
There are other parties in Japan that briefly gained control of the government but the people regularly come back to the LDP. I know most non-japanese are use to politcal arguments being fought between different parties, but in Japan the real fighting is between different factinos within the LDP.
There are other parties in Japan that briefly gained control of the government but the people regularly come back to the LDP. I know most non-japanese are use to politcal arguments being fought between different parties, but in Japan the real fighting is between different factinos within the LDP.
While I'm tmepted to indulgently pat her on the head she does have a good ponit in that the way the Japanese aprliament functions is really different than most other democracy's approach. That having been said there are real potial for runs here within factions of the LDP. I've found these guys can resign on just a public scandal. of course until it becomes public, they'll move heavan and earth to stop you from going public.
To give back up to SF, after I kick her in the shin,
http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn2...20070906a4.html
is from the current news in Japan how recent problems might force an election. 2 ministers have stepped down because of problems only a week after being appointed.
In the west we would be wondering how corrupt the agriculture ministry is. They have gone through 3 ministers this year. 2 resigned and one hanged himself, but in Japan they go for the minister as the trouble. The ministry itself is not blamed.
http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn2...20070906a4.html
is from the current news in Japan how recent problems might force an election. 2 ministers have stepped down because of problems only a week after being appointed.
In the west we would be wondering how corrupt the agriculture ministry is. They have gone through 3 ministers this year. 2 resigned and one hanged himself, but in Japan they go for the minister as the trouble. The ministry itself is not blamed.
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