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Cain
In the Edge thread, a lot of people are saying the Mr. Lucky build is inefficient, and should have an Edge of 6 instead of 8. Despite my assertions to the contrary, no one is willing to put their money where their mouth is, and post a better character.

So, I'm creating a new thread, and letting Dumpshockers prove their points. I'd like to see what kind of pistol sam builds people come up with, on the provision that they have an Edge of 6 to 8. Also, I posted a half-assed quickie mage that people are deriding as weak. I haven't done so well creating mages yet, so I'd like to see what you can come up with for a Mr. Lucky the Mage. Again, he must have an Edge of 6 to 8.

Oh, and here's the character in question:

Mr. Lucky:

Body: 5
Quickness: 5 (7)
Reaction: 4 (6)
Strength: 2 (4)
Charisma: 3
Intuition: 4
Logic: 3
Willpower: 3

Edge: 8
Initiative: 8 (12) IP: 2
Essence: 0.75

Skills
Pistols (Semi auto) 7
Gymnastics (Dodging) 2
Unarmed combat (martial arts) 2
Con (Fast talk) 1
infiltration (Urban) 2

Knowledge Skills (Your choice, but here are mine):
Farming: 3
Sports (Rodeos): 2 +2
BK: Firearms: 3
Safehouse Locations: 5
Denver Border Crossings (Shadow Crossings): 4 +2

Edges:
High Pain Tolerance (Or 5 pts, your choice)
Lucky
Apt: Pistols

Flaws:
35 points your choice

Cyberware

Skillwires (Rating 3)
Smartlink
Wired Reflexes (Rating 1)
Muscle Replacement (Rating 2)

Bioware

Enhanced Articulation
Reflex Recorder (Skill Group) (Firearms)

Gear and weapons: 59,000 nuyen.gif your choice
15 points contacts.
Ddays
Better in what way exactly? And by my count, your character should only have +1 reaction, and 9 initiative.

Ok, your guy has 7 Agi + 7 Skill + 2 Spec + 1 Recorder + 3 skill wire +2 smartlink(Assuming you spend the 2 points in gear to get rating 3 autsoft) with pistols. 22 dice, 30 edged.

I counter with a 7 Agi + 6 Skill + 2 Spec + 3 Skill + 2 smartlink, losing out 2 dice, but specced in sniper rifles and hit you from beyond your maximum range. Not to mention that I have more points left over to spend on other things. Exactly what are you looking for?

Oops, I didn't see you specifically mention pistol sam. But in that case, if that's the criteria, are we just throwing out all the advantages of points freed up in versatility for maximum pistol shootiness?
odinson
I think he wants complete builds not one line with what stats you could possibly throw.
Ddays
Well, let's say I make the same exact char, dump the huge points costs to max pistols and get 24 points for gear instead of 12, would the versatility inherent in double the points in gear be worth not being completely twinked out for pistol combat?

How about not having 35 points in unspecified flaws? Would that be a better character?
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Cain)
Gymnastics (Dodging)

No such Specialisation for Gymnastics.
Glyph
I would probably allow someone to take tumbling as the appropriate specialization for gymnastics dodge. But Cain, you still have 210 points put into Attributes - might want to drop Strength down to 1 (3) to fix it, since a 3 Strength does the same damage as a 4 Strength.

Ddays, skillwires don't add to skills, they replace them - skillwires let a character slot chips to be able to do things they are untrained in. So this build has 19 in pistols, 27 when Edged (although with a dice pool of 19, usually it will be more effective to use Edge to re-roll failures, instead).

Cain, I've given up trying to convince you anything is "better" than Mr. Lucky. He has all of the things you consider essential, so spending 55 points on anything else wouldn't convince you. If you're curious what I would do, though, it would be: 16 points to improve gymnastics and unarmed combat to 4; 28 points to add perception (visual): 4 and pilot ground craft (cars): 2; 6 build points (30,000 cost) to add synthcardium (rating 3) - lowering Essense to 0.60; and 5 points to get the ambidexterity quality.

I will post a "Lucky Mage" later, though.
Ryu
Minimum edge: 6... cp a lucky ork with edge 6 costs the same but has body 8 and strength 6. I´d of course take body 7 and strength 3(5).

20 saved points say "influence group 2" to me. (6 pts from con(spec) go to gymnastics 4 (no spec), but thats not important).

I´d also never take apt:combat skill, as BP/dice is very bad on that one. 18/24 dice should do the trick just the same.
Fortune
QUOTE (Cain @ Jul 14 2007, 05:49 PM)
Body: 5
Quickness: 5 (7)
Reaction: 4 (6)
Strength: 2 (4)
Charisma: 3
Intuition: 4
Logic: 3
Willpower: 3

Seems like you spent 210 on Attributes ... ?

[edit] Damn, Glyph. I scanned the thread to see if anyone picked it up, but missed it in yours. nyahnyah.gif [/edit]
Fortune
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
QUOTE (Cain @ Jul 14 2007, 09:49 AM)
Gymnastics (Dodging)

No such Specialisation for Gymnastics.

True, but there is Acrobatics as a Specialization, which works the same way.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Fortune)
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
QUOTE (Cain)
Gymnastics (Dodging)

No such Specialisation for Gymnastics.

True, but there is Acrobatics as a Specialization, which works the same way.

No. The Specialisations for Gymnastics are: Balance, Breakfall, Dance, Jumping and Tumbling.
toturi
QUOTE (Cain)
In the Edge thread, a lot of people are saying the Mr. Lucky build is inefficient, and should have an Edge of 6 instead of 8. Despite my assertions to the contrary, no one is willing to put their money where their mouth is, and post a better character.

My assertion is that you are focusing Lucky on the wrong skill. You are using Edge to shore up weaknesses but you shouldn't use Edge for tests that the GM can call multiple times or tests that the GM might roll in secret - those skills are the ones you should have as the primary skill, you need them as high as possible because you don't know when to use the Edge(which is why Edge isn't luck as far as I'm concerned). The 2 tests that a GM might make in secret and can spam are Perception and Assensing tests. So for a high Edge mundane or an Adept/Mystic Adept without Astral Perception, the primary skill should be Perception, similarly, a high Edge Magician should have Assensing as the primary skill. I can't give you a better Pistol Lucky. I think I can give a better Lucky however.
Ravor
Besides, part of the problem is that you are insisting on a pistol hyper-specialist, and I can't really give you a better hyper-specialist because as far as I'm concerned they all suck equally.

However if I were to try to play your game, I'd definently listen to toturi using skillwires and Edge for skills like perception and the like is suicide unless you have an overly nice DM, and no, you can't "stack" the bonuses from vision enhancements by wearing both contacts and glasses in order to milk more dice. (Unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean by "stacking" of course, if you are just talking about using two devices in order to be able to have access to all of the vision modes but are only using one at a time then yeah, that's legal but still won't make up from a lack of perception skill.)

Cain
QUOTE (Fortune)
QUOTE (Cain @ Jul 14 2007, 05:49 PM)
Body: 5
Quickness: 5 (7)
Reaction: 4 (6)
Strength: 2 (4)
Charisma: 3
Intuition: 4
Logic: 3
Willpower: 3

Seems like you spent 210 on Attributes ... ?

[edit] Damn, Glyph. I scanned the thread to see if anyone picked it up, but missed it in yours. nyahnyah.gif [/edit]

Sorry, got him off a living sheet, and forgot to roll back his stats.

QUOTE
Well, let's say I make the same exact char, dump the huge points costs to max pistols and get 24 points for gear instead of 12, would the versatility inherent in double the points in gear be worth not being completely twinked out for pistol combat?

How about not having 35 points in unspecified flaws? Would that be a better character?


Would more gear make a difference? I don't know, why don't you stat up a character, and *show me*. I may be wrong, here, but no one has stepped forward to prove it.

And as for flaws, anyone here can easily pick out flaws that have virtually no penalty to them. I could post a sample list, but then people say I'm being a munchkin. cyber.gif
jklst14
I usually don't make high Edge characters so it was fun to give it a shot.

Lucky Pistol Samurai
* He isn't as good with pistols as the first example but he's pretty good and also has Automatics for long distance combat as well as good social and athletic skills plus skillwires to fill in the gaps.
* I usually don't purchase any specializations at character creation since they are so cheap to purchase later on.

Human


Attributes (200 pts + 40 pts Edge)
Body:3
Agility: 5 (7)
Reaction: 5 (6)
Strength: 2 (4)
Charisma: 4
Intuition: 4
Logic: 2
Willpower: 3
Edge: 6
Essence: 2.45

Skills (156 pts)

Athletics Group 4
Influence Group 4
Automatics 4
Infiltration 3
Pistols 6
Perception 3
Unarmed 3

Knowledge Skills
Your choice...

Cyberware/Bioware (147 000 nuyen)

Muscle Augmentation 2
Muscle Toner 2
Reflex Recorder Firearms Group
Skillwire Rating 3
Synthcardium Rating 3
Tailored Pheromones Rating 3
Wired 1

Qualities
-35 points in Negative Qualities

Cost
Attributes 200
Edge 40
Skills 156
Qualities -35
Nuyen 30 (150 000)

with 3000 nuyen + 9 more build points for more gear or Contacts

Edit once: forgot to add Essence stat
Edit twice: corrected Unarmed Combat to 3
jklst14
Here's another guy. He breaks the guidelines Cain set since his Edge is only 5 (he's an Ork) but I think he works well.

Lucky Pistol Adept


Ork (20 pts)


Attributes (160 pts + 40 pts Edge +40 Magic)
Body:4
Agility: 5 (7)
Reaction: 5 (6)
Strength: 4 (6)
Charisma: 2
Intuition: 4
Logic: 2
Willpower: 3
Edge: 5
Magic 3
Essence: 4


Skills (128 pts)

Athletics Group 4

Assensing 3
Etiquette 3
Infiltration 3
Pistols 6
Perception 3
Unarmed 4

Knowledge Skills
Your choice...

Powers (3 power points)
Astral Perception
Improved Pistols Level 3
Killing Hands

Cyberware/Bioware (156 000 nuyen)
Muscle Augmentation 2
Muscle Toner 2
Reflex Recorder Pistols
Skillwire Rating 3
Synaptic Accelerator 1
Synthcardium Rating 3

Qualities (-30 points)
Adept
-35 points in Negative Qualities

Cost
Race 20
Attributes 160
Edge 40
Magic 40
Skills 128
Qualities -30
Nuyen 32 (160 000)

with 4000 nuyen and 10 build points left over for gear or Contacts
odinson
QUOTE (jklst14)


Skills (156 pts)

Athletics Group 4
Influence Group 4
Automatics 4
Infiltration 3
Pistols 6
Perception 3
Unarmed 4

isn't that 160 bp for skills.
Cain
Both those are really good. Before we get into the comparisons, I'd like to thank you two, and congratulate you on a job well done.
ElFenrir
This seems fun to do, ill have one for you when i get home from work, i think. Or ill try, at least. biggrin.gif
Fortune
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
No. The Specialisations for Gymnastics are: Balance, Breakfall, Dance, Jumping and Tumbling.

D'oh! You're right ... I must have been thinking of Tumbling, as Glyph said. embarrassed.gif
James McMurray
I personally would not allow any form of dodging speciality for Gymnastics. If you do that you may as well get rid of the didge skill altogether, since there will be no reason to take it.
Fortune
That's a fair enough way of looking at it as well.
jklst14
QUOTE (odinson)
QUOTE (jklst14 @ Jul 14 2007, 02:00 PM)


Skills (156 pts)

Athletics Group 4
Influence Group 4
Automatics 4
Infiltration 3
Pistols 6
Perception 3
Unarmed 4

isn't that 160 bp for skills.


You're right. I transcribed it wrong. Unarmed should be 3. I'll fix it in the original post.
Cain
QUOTE (James McMurray)
I personally would not allow any form of dodging speciality for Gymnastics. If you do that you may as well get rid of the didge skill altogether, since there will be no reason to take it.

As it stands, there's not much reason for the dodge skill. You're probably right.
Glyph
For a combat-oriented character who has a close combat skill to parry or block with, no. But for a character less oriented towards physical melee, dodge works way better for melee.

Normal defense:
Dodge: get to add it.
Gymnastics: don't get to add it.

Full defense:
Dodge: get to add double your dodge skill.
Gymnastics: get to add it - once, as opposed to the twice for full dodge or full parry.

So for characters such as faces, mages, tech-focused hackers, and the like, dodge is a much, much more useful skill to have for defense.
jklst14
QUOTE (Cain)
Both those are really good.  Before we get into the comparisons, I'd like to thank you two, and congratulate you on a job well done.

Thanks smile.gif
Glyph
Okay, here's two versions of a lucky mage:

[ Spoiler ]


This guy is pure combat mage. He is weak in a few attributes and in non-magical skills, but the tradeoff is that he is great in his primary combat role. No sustaining foci, because they can't be bought high enough at char-gen to allow full effectiveness for his sustained spells (3 IP for increased reflexes, 5 hits for improved invisibility). He tosses enough dice that losing 2 for sustaining a spell really won't hurt him. If you're wondering why a power focus and a spellcasting focus, it's because the spellcasting focus will be used to soak Drain.

[ Spoiler ]


This guy is more of a support mage. In addition to mage skills, he is very good at mundane healing (17 dice for first aid on combat wounds when he uses his medkit). He can also still do well at protecting teammates from hostile spells, and his spellcasting and summoning skills are nothing to sneeze at, either.
Whipstitch
My turn.

[ Spoiler ]


Could fiddle with the influence group to net some charisma, if you wanted, since this character only spent 160 bps on natural attributes. Social skills are important, but the charisma attribute itself is rather mediocre, since there's so few skills linked to it. He's got dice in all the important social skills but intimidation, but intimidation is actually defended against via Intimidate+willpower instead of charisma, AND he's got the Guts quality on top of that. So you're not really in any more danger of embarrassing yourself or getting conned or bullied than most other builds are (although I guess it would be a problem if you have some deep seated need to be scary). Stuck with body 3 since I've learned to "settle" for the Chameleon suit, Urban Explorer jumpsuit, armored vest (worn under chic) or the lined coat for most situations anyway. Willpower is at 3 because anything more usually just results in a false sense of security for mundanes anyway. This guy's waaay dodgier than the 8 edge build anyway, so I'd put my money on this guy being more resilient despite the lack of an armored jacket.

The character has 14 bp leftover, 10 of which can still be spent on equipment.

...I still feel like I've made far better builds though. Just too antsy about augmentation coming out to feel too enthusiastic on tweaking current builds.


@Jklist: I've made a few cyber adepts along that kind of statline before as well. Always worked out great. One thing I like to point out when making combat cyberadepts is that since it's an athletic rather than a combat skill there's nothing stopping you from taking Improved Gymnastics instead of blowing twice the power points on the poor, unloved dodge skill. Although I definitely understand why you'd take killing hands on a guy with astral perception instead of buffing the already high gymnastic dodge pool.
Rotbart van Dainig
One thing to note:

Mr. Lucky should never, ever touch Genetic Infusions.

Those funny genedrugs have a Side-Effct roll when they wear of... which calls for an Essence +Edge Test (no Edge use allowed).
On 5 hits, the effcts become permanent and cost 0,4 Essence.
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