If you want it right away. You have to go with the pdf, as the hardcopy will take another month to come up.

Also it looks like the price is lower. The street magic pdf costs $25, ditto if I buy it from amazon. But supposedly the list price is ~$35. Assuming the list price isn't just a big lie that's what I would have had to pay if I had driven out to the mall to buy it.


Is that right? Is that crippling the local stores? I don't really live near one now, but I used to, and they were a great source for new players, as people would wander in off the street and the owners would introduce them to roleplaying and point them at a game.

Of course I hear about games workshop and comic places opening up. Are game stores shifting to comics, wargaming, and maybe anime for revenue and just have a little RP on the side?

If local stores want to do well in the RPG market, then they need to not suck so much.

If they want to compete with Amazon, they need to compete with Amazon. I'm not talking about price. You can argue that the atmosphere or social aspects of the friendly local gaming store make up for that, so I'll skip the point entirely. They need to have every book for a game in stock, not one or two. They need to have some clue what the games are interested in, instead of some fat, rude b**** behind the counter chewing her gum like cud and shrugging dismissively at any attempt at conversation. They need to have a decent RPG section instead of one shitty cardboard stand in the back corner.
When I was a kid, there were two very good FLGS that I knew of. They had tons of books for tons of games, and you could BS with the employees and they knew the news, and what the games were like, and could recommend things.
If you can find a store like that, then find a convenient deity and thank them. But where I live, the FLGS aren't being forced out of the gaming market by anything, they're just not trying anymore. They'd rather devote 90% of their shelf space to warhammer minis and all of their tables to pokemon.

You're damn right I'm bitter.


edited for clarity

Still without really knowing I mentioned switching to wargaming and comics (and how could I forget CCGs!)

It could be that if they stocked their shelves full of RPGs people still wouldn't buy the stuff from them. (though I'm sure some would).

But you can't get warhammer/Magic/pokemon pdfs. You can also charge for a tournament. I imagine attempts to charge for playing SR would be rather unsuccesful.

Well, yes. Many local game shops are in trouble thanks to internet sales, that's no big shocker.

It's not exactly news, either. Teh intrawebs have been in stiff competition with brick-and-mortar shops of all varieties (not just game stores) for quite a while now. Game stores are worse off than many (just given the nature of the purchases, the likely-computer-literate nature of most customers, the limited need for ongoing purchases inherent in gaming, the adaptability of most game books to a perfectly viable pdf format, etc)...but it's been an issue for quite a while, now.

It only makes sense that a pdf is cheaper (the cost to convert a document to pdf form is much lower than the formating, printing, real-world shipping, shelf space, etc required for a hardcopy). Why should they artificially inflate the price of a pdf, only to encourage the sale of archaic paper products?

And, yes. It's also no secret that many game stores are offering new goods and services to stay alive. Not just opening up to comics, miniature games, collectibles, card games, etc, but also by hopping onto the internet bandwagon themselves. Both my local stores offer pay by the hour internet access with pretty high-end computers geared towards gaming (so you can play WoW, Dawn of War, etc right there from the shop). Both stores also have bustling eBay accounts where they can sell of excess product. Both stores have also opened up side markets in other, smaller ways -- soda machines, candy bars and other snacks for sale, locker rentals in-store (for wargaming), etc, etc.

*shrugs* It's been a problem for several years now, and is only going to get worse.

There's a reason the joke goes "What's the best way to make a little money with a gaming store?"

"Start with a lotta money."

Topic moved to appropriate area.

Well its not really hurting our locals, but I know in some areas it does. I'll have to agree with Moon-Hawk though, personality behind the shop front makes a huge difference. My regular store (which is one I drive by 2 others to get too) has a great staff that promotes as many RPGs, Mini, and card games as they can. A typical weekend usually sees 25 tables full of gamers, which ends up being 1 card tourney, 2-3 RPGs, sometimes a board game, at least 1 demo table and the rest being taken by at least 2 difference minis games. Unfortunately this isn't the norm in most cities, as each store seems to drift into only doing 1-2 games on a regular basis... dunno, maybe its only my town out here though.

Yeah. Attitude is the major killer for me. The local place would be great if they had some more vocal and outgoing, customer-focused people running it. I can't complain too much, as the owner died not too long ago and the staff that's on now is running it for his widow. It's a bad situation, and I give them major credit for managing to keep the place open.

None of that makes up for the fact that when you go in there, even if you aren't one to feel "gamer shame", you feel the thick blanket of social maladjustment, and have to hope that the <insert sterotypical gamer here> that keeps looking at you is the person working there, because you're already irritated that you have to hunt for an employee, and you don't want to have to ask fifteen "wrong guys" about a product.

I have been in gaming stores ranging from totally bad ass down to "I wish I could afford to work here and fix the place", and right now, the place closest to me is closer to being the latter.

I go in occasionally, only to remember why I don't go there and walk out frustrated that not only did they not have anything I was looking for, nobody seemed all that interested in finding out what I needed and helping me get it.

I'm a customer. I vote with my wallet. And if I'm not voting for you, know that I'm voting for someone else. It sucks, because I would love to rejoin the ranks of the "I shop FLGS" crowd, but frankly, my bottom line is more important to me than theirs unless I'm getting something out of the deal that makes paying an extra few bucks worth it. Good service from friendly, knowledgeable people is what I'm paying for with that few bucks, and I wish shop owners would wake up and realize that.

Print PDFs are a much higher resolution [both art and text], slightly larger dimensions than the actual pages [printed books are printed on large sheets and then cut down], and use CMYK for color if they are 4 color books. They also have some extra notations to explain things to the printer [where to cut, and in some cases where to fold], and, of course, the back cover - spine - front cover is not 3 separate pieces, but one single wide page.

The PDFs we release for sale have lowered resolutions, the dimensions are the same as the printed page, color is RGB, and the cover is chopped up.

I remember one comic book shop in New York State that also stocked RPG materials. The owner kept trying to guilt trip me into shopping at this store on the basis of "support local business while my service and prices suck" which disgusted me.

Our local shop does pretty well, but most of their customers actually like going in there, so that helps

They also are fairly full service... Games, RPGs, Mini's, CCG's, and Comics.

The one thing they don;t do that would help out so much is demo's and tournaments, but space is currently an issue (Though there's been a very small storefront for rent next to him for over a year now, and we keep telling him he should grab the space), and more importantly, he doesn't want the extra hassle and liability. He's looking at it the wrong way, but we can;t cahnge his mind (We being several of the local gamers as well as a couple of his employees).

Bull

Well given the chance I'll always get a hard book over a pdf, Though since their will be times I'd like to read away from home but not away from a pc its easyer to have a pdf, depending on the book I might of one of each. well and the price ofcourse, I'll pay more for a real book then I ever would for a pdf,

my problem with shopping at my FLGS? I DON'T have one. Word i've heard is when i first moved here to nc, the last one in greensboro shut down like the week before i went looking for it. that puts the next closest one about an hour away in durham.

no thanks.

Define "real"?

~J

Not Imaginary?

I'm assuming that's not what kzt means, because "non-levitating non-extraplanar gaming stores that don't contain known magnetic monopoles" covers the same number of stores as that interpretation.

Edit: kzt, since you replied while I was posting, what sorts of games count? You mentioned you didn't know how clicky-games and MTG fit in, but what about wargaming in general? Board gaming? Card gaming (collectible and not)?

I mean, either the definition is extremely narrow or Boston is well above the average—I can think of at least five stores in the greater Boston area alone, and I know I've heard talk about others that I haven't gone to (and thus haven't included in that count). 300 might make sense with that number, but for the greater Boston area to account for over 5% of that count by itself doesn't make sense to me.

~J

see......I've got a local store that I loved to go to, and he's willing to order anything for me at any time, and makes sure that if a new SR book comes out from the printers he's got 3 on hand (one for me, one for a friend, and one for my group usually), but, his focus is on wargaming and trying to get into M:tG (not really big on any of the other CCG's)

what's killing his store for the most part is the fact that in catering to the wargamers, it has a bad habit of bringing in people who get hooked, play for a while, then get humiliated or piss everyone off by begging for a game constantly. Or...gets in someone who's supposed to be helping out at his store but instead is worrying about making himself as much $$ as possible by trading the aforementioned M:tG cards to newbies and then making them mad when they find out how much they got ripped off.... as far as tournaments go, I actually had planned on trying to help organize the magic tourneys but was quickly informed that they weren't allowed to be setup as "there are 8 seats and that's it, first 8 to register and pay get to play, 2 alternates will be available and will be refunded if they don't get to play" but rather had to make things work for as many people as wanted to come, which, if you've ever participated in a magic tournament that two people are running, you'll know that it's simply not a realistic idea to expect that there be 22 people playing with 2 people monitoring.

as far as charging people for RP time, I actually would be more than happy to....if I could rent a table and a locker to keep my gaming stuff at the store and when my games come up I've got first claim to the table so that my group has a guaranteed place to play that's nice and clean and comfortable, I'd gladly pay $10 a session for the table and $5-10/week-month for locker rental. I know a few other groups that would do the same as well.

...since I primarily GM/play using a notebook computer, I find PDFs much more useful & easier on the shoulders than lugging 25 Kilos of hardcopy game books to each session. What I do not understand is why game book PDF's couldn't be burned to disk, packaged, and sold off the shelf at your FLGS like other game related software. I am sure that game stores would stock them if they were offered, heck they would be foolish not to.

This would eliminate much of the hassle I often hear about concerning ordering on line for once you forked over your hard earned cash (in whatever format you use) you would have the disk in your hot little hands immediately.

I can only assume that the license has not been released to distribute them like that. I agree that if I could buy the pdf on CD with a nice case and all that, that would actually be preferable to me. Even moreso if you can get multiple books in a library together, comes with other stuff, etc.

...the thing is if Catalyst already owns the property and authourises web sales of the PDF I don't see where the issue is. I for one am unable to order online since it requires plastic money of some sort. Meanwhile there is a gaming store only a few blocks away and I have cold hard cash in my pocket I am willing to part with for the PDF of this supplement.

There are still a lot of gamers (several in my own group) who still prefer having the dead tree version in their hands so I do not see a conflict between sales of the two different formats either. A CD/DVD is cheap to produce compared to a printed book, so one would think it would be an attractive item from a profit standpoint. If they (Catalyst) are already selling the PDF on line then, they already have secured whatever distribution license/agreement they need from Adobe.

Because when you buy a pdf, you put your personal information with it. If my pdf turns up on kazaa, someone (in theory) would knock on my door and ask for Mr. Nezumi Hebereke and why he's sharing copyrighted property.

Selling unmarked pdfs on CD doesn't have that problem.

Without going into details -- so far, it has been very difficult for game companies to get decent penetration and profits in stores with CD-ROM material, especially books on PDF. Only a few companies have done it, and I've been privvy to a few sales figures and expense reports, and at this time I don't believe it's worth it.

nezumi: Not all vendors are watermarking PDFs; BattleCorps.com doesn't.

Gah! So when I wanted to send pdfs to Ziggurat Con I could have gone to battle corps? Too bad it's blocked at work, but thanks for the head's up. I'll definitely check them out.

I have to wonder though, why would it be tough? Do people see the CD and say 'well, I could get that cheaper online, and without spending the gas money'? Assumedly, anyone who wants the pdf version already knows they can get it online and anyone who wants the books knows where to get those (online). I don't understand why limiting options in the stores (by not offering CDs) would decrease sales.

It's tough because:

* some game stores think that once people start buying electronic books, they're just going to buy them online from then on.

* most game stores don't have a lot of area devoted to CD/DVD products, and due to small size and stealability they can't be shelved next to the related print books. Things that aren't shelved well aren't purchased.

* printing good quality packaging in small quantities is not inexpensive.

I don't believe I said that offering PDFs on CD-ROM would *decrease* sales, but from my research I don't think it would be profitable.