i was under the impression that hot sim comes as much from signal strength as anything else.

so when i think about it, i would expect the sim module to be wired directly to the input (jack, trode, whatever) but not required to be wired directly to a comlink or similar...

it does not say anywhere that a handshake would do, but people are guessing that it can be done, both because its a broadcast medium similar to wireless (you put a signal onto someones skin and everyone in contact with the skin can pick it up) and because handshake based exchange of data have been shown of as close to reality for some time now (hell, microsoft applied for a patent for a skinlink style system some years ago iirc).

think about it, skinlink is nothing more then a very low current version of a stungun or similar. and if you hold the hand of someone thats hit by one of those, your hit yourself.

no it would work on skin alone. thats why i pointed out the stun gun (or for that matter a electic fence).

and data traffic happens very very fast. so if you can win initiative (nice way to calculate speed) and manage to hack in on a single pass, you can get his pan to open up the wireless.

another option is to have a agent on standby that will try to hack its way in when the handshake takes place and then perform some actions if it manages to get transfered.

A couple of thoughts after reading this thread:

Hacking someone's commlink wouldn't be enough (Unless they are using an implanted commlink that is.), you'd have to hack the person's Datajack or Trodenet and have that hook up to the sim module you wanted. Personally I don't think that you could do that without it being noticed.


Is it just me or are the rules for Brain Hacking that were in Man and Machine absent from AUG? Are they slated to appear in Unwired?

*Edit*

Oh personally I think hacking someone's skinlink PAN while touching them is possible, but then again in the Shadows I imagine that trying to shake someone's hand or otherwise touching them is a big no-no, not because of the relatively mild risk of skinline hacking (Come on, you've got one or maybe two turns to do your hack without being noticed, it's not that big of a risk.), but because of the risk of ritual links and stealth tags, ect...

Actually, it's a modulation of the EM-field of the body.

A person getting skinlinked hacked might notice a small electrical jolt or buzz or whatever, but unless they knew what the sensation meant, they'd be more likely to put it down to static electricity or something.

Sure, when your skinlink connects with theirs they may only feel a slight jolt and not figure things out, but they are probably going to smell something fishy when you try to turn a handshake into "let's hold hands'.

question is, how long does a handshake last, and how long would it take to on the fly hack the target comlink?

I can't speak for other parts of the country/world, but where I live, a handshake lasts just a couple of seconds, and even at jacked AR speeds, I don't think it's reasonable for a Decker to hack into the PAN, make the changes and alter the logs within the space of one combat turn. (Not to mention that it's very possible a "wireless active" message is sent to the user.)

I know that if I were a corporate business-man, with a skinlink, I'd set my commlink up to detect whenever it came into contact with someone else's skinlink. Then with a quick mental command, everytime I shake hands with someone they get my E-card. In fact, I would think that something like this would be pretty standard fare, so that sararimen meeting each other for the first time would expect small data exchanges that pu each other into their social networking management software. This is more than adequate time to upload an agent.

Do datajacks actually have wireless capability? I thought the entire point of a datajack was so you could hardwire things directly to your brain. I guess that opens up a whole new can o worms if they are wireless.

Sure, datajacks are intra-pan devices so they have ( Signal 0 ) for a reach of 3 meters, plus the hardwired connection, and the ability to be skinlink adapted.

Also something to consider is that if you upload an Agent ontp a PAN, you are changing the system load, and that by itself is probably going to get noticed.

Considering how system load works in the Sixth World I'd say it's alot more unlikely for someone to pass a Responce drop off as "normal system behavior".

Umm, unless AUG changed something that I missed, a sim module must be accessed by whatever DNI you've got, whether that is an implanted commlink, trodenet, or datajack, so even by RAW the tactic under discussion is only possible if you are within the ( Signal Rating ) of your target's set of trodes/datajack/implanted commlink.


*Edit*

Sure. But since it's wireless access, you can relay it.

there is a statement somewhere that simsense must be direct or something like that. can't remember offhand the exact wording, or the page number.

in any event, it didn't really clarify what 'direct' means. does it mean simsense has to go through a DNI of some kind? (ie direct meaning "direct neural interface") does it mean there can't be any other devices between the simsense module and the DNI? imo, it certainly doesn't mean it requires a cable (it would have to specifically mention that, imo, since the general rules indicate everything is wireless), though the last time this discussion came up someone insisted that's what it meant.

ultimately, the rules aren't terribly clear on this, i'm afraid. last time it came up, i basically just stopped discussing it and let it sink since it wasn't going anywhere, imo...

And whenever the rules aren't clear we have the fluff to examine in order to detremine the intent, and with the exception of Emergance claiming Technomancers have a power which the rules state they don't there isn't any mention of such tactics actual working at all.

more or less total silence on a given subject cannot be used to prove much about that subject... other than the fact that we don't know much about it.

(ie, just because it doesn't give specifics as to how possible it is, doesn't mean we can assume it is impossible. or possible for that matter. it just means that we don't really know)

I disagree when that something would be "world-changing" I mean IF this tactic worked then as it's been stated, everyone would be using it.

this tactic isn't necessarily all that "world changing"

right now, someone can grab a kitchen knife and go kill most average people if they want to. they'll get caught, but that's equally true about some random guy killing someone else via the matrix.

so why doesn't it happen? because you can still get caught. and because for anyone important enough to be worth killing, there will be hefty matrix defenses. which is all that really stops anyone from murdering people in the meat, also... anyone important enough to protect, will be protected.

the only difference is that whereas it takes only a cheap kitchen knife and random flailing to kill someone in the meat (heck, a rusty pipe or a metal bar is just as good, almost), it takes expensive hardware (several months worth of pay, specifically) equally expensive (not to mention extremely illegal) software, and skill to kill someone via the matrix.

which isn't really any significantly worse obstacles than a sniper or other assassin might face in the meat, really. ultimately, given the relatively low cost to protect someone in the matrix (that is, you can get human security someplace in seconds, no matter where they are physically)

matrix assassins should be no more common than normal assassins, and random deaths inflicted via the matrix should be almost unheard of! (probably only from TMs, since it's not exactly a walk in the park for anyone else to get black IC)

Okay. I'm gonna weigh in here, and I know I'm not an 'official' source, but since this came up a lot in my prior game, I'm gonna tell you how it can be done and how it can't be done.

Page 318, Sim Module Entry: "A sim module must be accessed via trodes or a direct neural interface (datajack, implanted commlink, etc)." This means that your brain hits sim module before it hits commlink. Regardless of the fact that the sim module is physically attached to the commlink, the sim module is the FIRST thing your DNI signal is processed through, not the commlink.

On Sim Modules
This is how it goes. An implanted commlink is a DNI because it's hard-wired into your brain - therefore the implant takes over the duties of a datajack, assuming the sim module is also implanted. Trodes are specifically the only non-DNI form of access that a sim module can have. This means that as signals pass from the great god of the matrix to the user's commlink, they are then interpreted by the sim module and sent to your brain. The analogy of the modem is almost correct but not quite - modem is to sim module as computer is to brain:
Matrix --> User's Commlink --> Sim Module --> Brain.
The module is that which translates the digital data of the matrix for your brain. Not for your commlink. That's why the module has to set directly between your gray matter and anything else.

On Hot/Cold Sim
'So what!' you say, 'Let's just hot-wire somebody's datajack wirelessly and get that bad boy a good ol' brainfry!' Good plan, but no cigar. Not yet, anyway. So you wanna connect your sim module to them, such that they can get black IC'd from the comfort of their own living room. You're going to run into two problems really quick:
1) You have to get it connected to their DNI. How to do this has been adequately described, with the exception of one error, which I'll deal with in the DNI section below.
2) You have to override their own sim module, if it's not re-wired for hot sim.
Why is this? Well, sim 'strength' is measured by the 'delta levels' of the recording (see Shadowbeat, Matrix 2.0, and probably forthcoming 4th edition releases). The higher the delta levels, the stronger the sensation. BTLs are literally better than life because they run the delta levels for sensory input above what the brain is capable of producing on its own. Hot sim is the same way, which is why you're faster, more alive, and it's possible to get addicted. It's not that the hot sim modules have an amplifier, but rather than ordinary sim modules have safety cutoffs in place via hardware buffers. Black IC, P-Fix chips, all that good stuff - they rely on going over the cutoffs to affect the user.
So even if you rig your hot sim module to the target's DNI, as long as their own sim module is in the loop (which it would have to, if your attack is inbound through their commlink) the black IC signal will get cut. It'll either get cut by their sim module before it hits yours, and the signal will already be dampened, or it'll get through yours only to be rendered 'ordinary' (albeit confusing) by their module. You need to remove their sim module from the equation entirely in order to have hot sim access their brain. Unless they're running a modified module, in which case you pretty much just have to spoof it into running in hot mode.

Fact 1: BTLs and other chips don't need sim modules for the same reason emulators don't need hardware: the signal they output is already in the form the human brain can process. The sim module is built right onto the chip. So theoretically, a P-Fix chip doesn't need a sim module on the target to work, as long as it's being directly connected by DNI. Unfortunately, if you send the P-Fix signal over the 'net it does, because it has to get translated into the matrix protocols and back out again.

That said, my personal (and in no way official) addendum is this: there's no way someone who's running hot sim all of a sudden would fail to notice it. It's just too raw, too alive, and too much like railing a line of molten aluminum.

DNI And You
'Okay' goes the next argument, 'But I can wirelessly subscribe my module to their DNI - be it datajack, internal commlink, or whatever - and then hack their sim module to turn off and give control to my own.' A good bet. But harder than you might think. This isn't explicitly stated in the rules, but logic dictates this is the case: datajacks don't usually pick up wireless data. Why is this?
The description of a datajack explicitly states that it is used to interface with data via a cable. It's not going to be used by the 'average' user, since they have no need of full VR. Any user who DOES use full VR, however, will be using the cable for the same reason you would:
1) Anything you'd want to access wirelessly is accessed through your commlink, not your datajack. So it's not like you need to have your bare brain exposed to all those chips - you can just dump 'em into your head through the commlink. That's why the commlink is the hub of your PAN and not your datajack.
2) Most objects are totally incapable of interacting with your datajack without some kind of interpretation device. It's all well and good to quote that everything is wireless - it is - but that doesn't mean it's all using the same language. You can't wirelessly jack straight into your coffee cup and expect it to react to mental signals without the auspices of a sim module. Same with a doctor's CyberSurgeon9000+ in an ER. You have to have an object do some kind of interpretation, and that's the sim module, and usually also a commlink.
3) So you don't like cables. Buy a skinlink. They're cheap, and they cut out that problem of picking up static in your wireless datajack and making you taste lint and see spots. (Can you imagine what WiFi static would FEEL like, going directly to your brain?)
4) In "The Wireless World" in SR4 (p. 304) it DOES say GMs have the final say on what's wireless and what isn't. But it also says that 'As a rule, assume that any
gear item that is electronic or mechanical has a wireless-enabled computer in it.' While this is surely the case with DNIs, that doesn't mean that HAVING a wireless computer is the same as giving full functionality to the wireless world. In the example of the the jacket with a wireless computer, the computer wouldn't give some snarky bastard the ability to zip it up and unzip it, unless you bough the jacket from Sharper Image. It'd just be a waste of money for the manufacturer - the draw wouldn't great enough to incorporate that kind of computer control.
5) Even if we assume datajacks have total wireless functionality rather than simple wireless diagnostics, wifi can be turned off with a simple command. It can't be turned back on except for manually. That means any company worth its' salt would require employees to turn off such a 'bare brains' security risk while on company property. Consider it like this: you might say that most people won't think about it because of convenience. It's also convenient not to tie my shoes, but after you watch someone trip on their shoelace, don't you make sure yours are still tied?

Users in 2070 aren't the same class of idiots we have today. The wireless matrix is everywhere, in everything, and they're gonna think twice about baring gray matter to unexpected IC...if for no other reason than they don't wanna get VR bombed by CIALIS NOW sensory ads in bad parts of town.
No.
These users are a different class of idiot. Their idiocy is that they think their security is good enough...not that security isn't an issue.

Excellent points. I think that you are right.

Therefore, I think, I can substitute my own sim module if I can bring it within direct connection distance of their DNI device (around 100m for an implanted commlink and 3m for datajack/trodes). I also need to own their system with considerable thoroughness, to deactivate their current sim module and potentially change them from skinlink to wireless (if they've skinlinked their datajack to their commlink I can hack their commlink, get access to their datajack, hack that, and set it to wireless).

Not easy, but possible. Does my understanding accord with yours?

How exactly do you deactivate/disable the piece of hardware that is the SIM Module wirelessly while it is in use?

AR is Simsense! While you don't need a Sim Module to use the Matrix via AR, you would still need one to get emotional feedback (which is available in AR).

Yeah, Dancer. That's pretty much the way I scan it. And as to how you might dump it when it's in use, Fortune... Dancer's also right that it's not going to be operating if you're not in full VR. And even if you are, you could - if you were fast enough - swap their sim module for yours, and it'd dump them into AR for a second (and they'd know what'd happened if they were sharp). But you could theoretically hit them with the IC if you got the drop on them.

Umm, you are mistaken about this not being a "world changing" tactic, it is at least as big as Ritual Sorcery is, perhaps even bigger considering that almost everyone gets their AR fix through sim-sense as well and thus through their sim-module and this tactic isn't limited to less then 1% of the population like magic is.

As for datajacks, remember that by default everything comes with wireless, and if datajacks were an exception then it would have been spelled out there as the description of datalocks shows us.

But considering a datajack needs to connect to your PAN to do anything useful there's no reason for it to have a signal of more than 0.

To brainhack somebody they either need to be using a hot sim module by default (small portion of the population), or you need to be able to physically insert one into their local space. Whereas ritual sorcery requires nothing, it hits them no matter where they are.

I totally agree with everything you just said Dancer, datajacks have ( Signal 0 ), and you can only brainhack someone who is using hot sim-module conected to their datajack/trodes/implanted commlink.

The problem is that people are argueing that you can hack someone's PAN and then use wireless relays to connect your sim-module to their datajack/ect and then fry their brain with Black Hammer from anywhere in the world and yet this wouldn't be world changing in the least because anyone can stab someone to death with a kitchen knife.

Had you played some Shadowrun Missions (referring to Through a Rose Colored Display Link), you'd know that the whole BTL mind control thing has already been done and is possible (apparently) in game to a variety of targets (mostly stupid/sloppy/lazy ones). There are simply no rules for it, yet. So use your best judgment.

Yeah, I also remember reading something about a "truly random" random number generator as well in one of the SR Missions, so I don't put that much stock in them even though in general I enjoy reading and mining them for ideas.

Look, IF you can override a user's own sim-module, and put a hot-sim module with range of their (signal 0) datajack in order to fry their brain, then why can't you get a repeater within range of their (signal 0) datajack, and then pipe the hot-sim feed through the repeater?

And if you CAN pipe the hot-sim through the repeater, why can't you use the cellular network that's already in place and almost always is within range of the targets datajack?

if you can do it at all, you can do it remotely.

So in order to prevent brainhacking the world from home, there are two possibilities: either the datajack does not possess wireless functionality (and thusly all incoming traffic is routed through the commlink and it's cold-sim module), OR the datajack is subscribed to the commlink and only accepts signals from it (with similar results) That last one means your datajack counts toward your commlink's subscription limit (at least when wirelessly enabled), and could be tricked with a spoof command.

So it would be locate the datajack's signal, spoof the datajack to accept your link (chance to be noticed), Hack the Datajack (chance to be noticed), Upload the p-fix/hit them with black IC. Non-trivial.

And anyone who cares a modicum about security could turn off their datajack's wireless capability. Then all traffic HAS to be routed through their own sim module, no way around it. Or they could go the way my paraniod hacker did, and get senseware for all 5 senses and leave the sim-module out of it.

Here's my question. If a person has a sim moduel modified for hot-sim, but it's currently in cold-sim mode, could you spoof it to switch it to hot sim for them?

So shadowrunners should know better, fool, and kids who experiment with BTLs probably leave their asses wide open.

I wonder if behind every incident of a matrix entity killing tourists is some beetlehead who left their module in hot-sim mode.

I disagree PlatonicPimp, because if it were really so easy to run sim-sense data through a sim-module and then relay it through node after node into someone's DNI device then why aren't sim-modules built into wireless routers already, effectively forcing everyone using them into either cold or hot sim?

Hell if that's the case then why do we even need a sim-module at all? Instead of using sim-sense why not transmit everything in DNI capable signals?

Basically what I'm trying to say is that it's not that unreasonable to look at the description of a sim-module and read the bit about being accessed through a DNI Device as meaning it has to be accessed directly, you can't just route the translated neural signals through relays that aren't designed to handle them.

But then again, unless an author speaks up we'll have to wait until Unwired to find out who is and isn't right, and I look at the fluff and wonder why isn't Ritual Sorcery for Deckers ever discussed if the tactic works across the world.