What are the new rules regarding the Karma-Costs for learning new skills with a Mnemonic Enhancer ("Mnemoverstärker" in German) in the Men&Machine revisited? Will they be brought online on the Homepage/Errata?

SYL

I've never heard of anything involving new rules for it. Can anyone state whether this is accurate or just a rumor?

~J

I haven't heard anything either, though I've been out of the loop for a while. I personally don't see any problem with it. Sure, it's a nice implant even without the Karma reducing effects, but in most games I've been in you don't receive ungodly amounts of Karma anyway... so it's rather nice to have a convenient way to improve/obtain a few skills even when you only get about 3-5 Karma per run.

In past discussions with people who had problems with it, I suggested that instead of removing those rules completely, change them so that they only help improve the time it takes to learn or improve a skill (such as adding extra dice for the learning test, or lowering the target number by its rating). Sure, few people I've played with have ever used the learning test rules (that's a bold faced lie -- no one has ever used them), but it still beats killing off an effect completely.

Well, it is said that during Ratcon 2003, a German RPG-Con, Rob said that the Karma-rules regarding the ME would be changed in the M&M revisited. That´s the reason of my question.

SYL

I'd suggest taking a look at www.srrpg.com where I found this:

http://www.shadowrunrpg.com/resources/errata_mm.shtml

p. 73 Mnemonic Enhancer [4]
Under Game Effects, change the third paragraph to read:
Because memory retention is key to learning, the Karma cost for learning or improving skills and specializations is reduced by 1 (to a minimum of 1) for any character with a mnemonic enhancer.

YEAH!

That's a good balance. Nowhere near as outrageous as the original mechanic, but still a pleasant addition to stack on top of the language bonus and plus to Knowledge skills.

so basicly the effect is no longer based on rating when it comes to any other skills then knowledge and languages...

As far as errata goes, I'm not unhappy with any of the new M&M errata. It gives some and takes some and generally makes things work better.

Hmm. Interesting. The bit about bioware now reducing magic rating in a similar manner to cyber is definately a big difference. I'd prefer it if they made a descision one way or the other on the trauma dampener though.

It's not canon now, anymore than Aptitude (Pistols) is. It's just "recommended."

This'll definitely change a few things.... Our team leader just got alot worse in 2/3rds of his skills (CJ ExpDriver ruling) while my PC is now completely unaffected by his 1 point of Bioware.

Guess we'll be re-working a certain PC in the upcoming week or so.

Sphynx

He is if he only has 0.5 Essence worth of cyberware.

Now mages can get a Cybereye (EyeLight, Image Link, Low-Light, Vision Mag 3), Datajack, Internal Transducer, Knowsoft Link, Trauma Damper, and Enhanced Articulator(or)Menmonic Enhancer 3 for the low, low price of only -1 Magic. Or just about any other combo you like. Which can be geased away completely. Score.

I think I'm going to stick with our old house rule. Cyberware and Bioware affect Magic independantly, and Bio Index isn't divided in half. Bioware has always been geasable in our games.

That sounds good

No, I like the "no regain" rule. It made bioware, well, different.

Gah! They NERF™ed my mnemonic enhancer! BAD Fanpro! BAD Wizkids! BAD everyone involved! I am most displeased!

But to make up for it, your phys-ad can get enhanced articulation and a supra-thyroid for the loss of one point of magic.
+2 reaction, +1 to all physical stats and +1 to all physical skills. Holy crap.

Personally, I'm ignoring the half bio-index thing until I hear more about how it affects peoples games. My inner number-cruncher drools thinking about what else I can cram into a mage without significant effect. Now I can have the trauma damper, level 1 mnemonic enhancer, and 1.2 BI of whatever else I want for one measly geasable magic point?

Well, since we don't allow gaesa for voluntary magic loss like implants, I think it's just fine... a little easier for both players and NPC's, it affects everyone equally.

With the new rules, you could make one heck of a gun adept. Take Pistols/Specific Pistol: 5/7, Improved Ability/Pistols: 5, then get cybereyes (with low-light, flare compensation, and optical magnification: 3), a smartlink II, enhanced articulation, and a reflex recorder (of your specific pistol specialization). You start out slinging 14 dice, and can add up to 7 more from Combat Pool. Grade A bang-bang!

Yeah, the very next thing I thought of was an 8-BI bioware sammie as an adept with 4 geasa. It could get wonderfully gruesome.

Yah know, I still like my original playtest proposal for the ME karma reduction best. Simply put, the ME would "match spending" when you used karma to learn a skill, up to a number of "virtual akrma" equal to its rating. Once hit that cap, it didn't help you any further with that skill.

To much record keeping, I guess- you need to record how much karma the ME has "kicked in" towards every skill you have. But it does seem a heck of a lot more balanced, if also a hell of a lot more complicated to write a rule for.

Yeah, forget spending Power Points on Improved Attribute (unless it's body). For 1 Power Point, you can get +5 total to Strength and Quickness. Well well well worth it, especially if you have a generous GM that let's you Geasa it off. And believe me.... for the karma reduction in skill advancing from bonus attributes well makes up for the loss of the Mnemonic Enhancer's bonuses.

Also, they still haven't explained the Doc's question about... If Memory Retention is the key, then why doesn't the Photographic Memory Edge provide a similar karma reduction? Gonna keep to our House Rule of no Karma Reduction from the ME.

Lastly.... you suppose there'd be a problem with routing your SkillWires to your Encephalon to increase your Task Pool? Trying to help my friend rebuild his character to the new Eratta (he has 3 CED's over rating 3).

Sphynx

Nope, it says it can't be combined. In that case, his Improved Reflexes overrides the Enhanced Articulation's bonus to Reaction.

<just rolls his eyes> It's sad when a GM has to take to cheating his players instead of just saying "no" to implants or whatever else if they think it's broken.

It's also sad when munchkinism and Essence/Magic min-maxing is so rampant as to leave anything other than magical characters in the dust. Mages and physads are already tremendously powerful, far more so than most starting samurai or other characters.

Buuuuuut that's just an old bugaboo of mine, and completely off-topic.

Man and Machine is very specific that the highest bonus available is the one that applies.

Personally, I think I'm going to houserule that the ME works as canon for active skills, but does the -rating karma thing for purchasing knowledge skills.

~J

I'm afraid to say that I'd go with the DnD technique of only applying the highest legal bonus. If there is some question as to what bonus is better, I'd let the player decide. IE: If a character had both Wired 1, 4 points of Reaction Enhancer, and Enhanced Articulation (+7/+1D6) and Increace Reflexes 2 (+4/+2d6), I'd let the player choose which he wanted to use.

[edit]Sort-of what TKG said[/edit]

Yea, thats pretty crazy.

Phsads can get 8 points of bioware leaving 2 points of magic, and can use weapon foci, and can initiate.

Cyber charachter can get 9 points of bio/cyber.

Street sams are almost obsolete.

Theres downsides to that, they get a plus 4 to all healing rolls with 8 points of bio.

Yeah, but they have to live long enough to initiate.

Samurai get a major boost in terms of overall damage stopping, enhanced strength + reflexes and don't worry about having to lose magic when getting hit.

Not to start the adepts vs samurai argument (again), adepts are better specialists than samurai and then only within specific fields.

-Siege

Don't forget that physads cost 25 points/priority A/B before you count things like resources that you'll want reasonably high (An B/A, or around 20 points) to buy that bioware.

Psst 2 power points.

Anyhow:
True, better keep it to six bioware points and 3 magic.

And yea physads were somewhat weak previously, in my opinion. I don't agree with the whole "specialist/generalist" thing though. Highly specialized sams are just as fearsome as highly specialized adepts.

Still seems like a sort of massive rule change for an errata.


PS I wasn't really thinking of starting out full of bioware.

Maybe start with one point of it, but as the game goes on replace those relatively weak adept powers (like enhanced attribute) with cheaper (power point wise) bioware whenever you get the money.

If the money level of the campaign is high enough to give sam's any chance of upgrading the magical charachters will find plenty as well. If it isnt the magical charachters were doing better already and this certainly does nothing to hurt them.

One power point? The adept can havel 9 points of Bioware still have all 6 of his Power Points if he had the resources for it and chose to do so. Sure, he needs five geasa for it, but he's still able to do so.

I have no idea why they decided to add this silly one-half Bio Index thing to the rule (not to mention adding it to Essence loss before determing Magic loss). Simply by allowing mages to geas off Bioware would have fixed everything. Bioware would still be more "magic friendly" that way because it wouldn't actually kill their Magic if they hit 0. They could still initiate and overcome it that way, which they can't do if Cyberware gets you down to Magic 0.

But oh well. Overcompensation seems to be standard when errata's concerned.

I would agree they overshot by a mile.

I like the adding the two impacts together then applying them. The whole thing with magic going up and down in integer values is just an approximation by the system. Making them loose two magic for two small mods seemed stupid to me.

However if a charachter can have 5 geasa without being majorly inconvenienced to use magic (ie most of the time they cannot use it) thier gm is making it far too easy.

Yeah, I think it overcompensated as well. I also think it's not an Eratta, it's a complete rewrite of the rules, seems that the eratta page is becoming less and less eratta, and more and more 4th Ed.

And fyi, as a munckin you do 8 Bioware because you plan for being 150+ karma down the road and still have plenty to advance. I can't help it, I always do magic user for any PC I make, even if he's gonna go 5 points of Essence loss, just because of advancement oppurtunity (and I don't do Geasa for it usually)

Sphynx