I was thinking today about how little flavor there is to TM's, as presented in SR4, they're practically just a set of rules. Not really any fluff or even fluff to take from examples, and they seem pretty well divorced from otaku from SR3. I haven't read emergence yet, so I'm hoping it will give some idea of what they're about but I wanted to get your guys' stories about TMs.
So if you include them in your game, what do you do to give them some personality?
I did a few things in my game, I had a streetlamp talk to the TM in my game, gave him a hint about some one who walked by the motion sensor in the lamp post. I also had him spot a sprite is his bowl of alphabits cereal.
What kind of flavor have you done for TMs?
Full Version: Technomancer Flavor
| QUOTE (Lagomorph) |
| I haven't read emergence yet, so I'm hoping it will give some idea of what they're about but I wanted to get your guys' stories about TMs. |
Emergence will tell you lots and lots about what other people think about technomancers.
As for real flavor for the VKs ('cause virtuakinetic is way cooler than technomancer) there is some, but not as much as I would have liked.
...I usually use Mrs. Dash to bring out the most flavour in TMs. Sometimes though it requires something a bit more robust which is when I break out the Tobasco. 
Well, the BBB does have Submersion and the Resonance Realms. Sprites are also entities with their own "thoughts" so that should give you lots to explore right there.
A TM in my group kept compiling a Fault 6 sprite so I had the same one show up all the time in the guise of Duke Nuke'm and he rapidly became a favorite. I tend to play Courier sprites as the UPS Guy from the old Mad TV skits.
I also ran a "Resonance Quest" once to the Realm of Archives and Data Sprites. That was sort of cool. Bascially RPed the TM following the Data Trail "as it happened." Our group also toyed around with the idea of Resonance Quests to grab blue prints for the latest SOTA gear. The thinking was that if it is stored on the Matrix ANYWHERE then it should be in a Resonance Realm somewhere.
There's also the old Otaku stuff to explore. Otaku used to run in tribes or gangs and I cold see TMs acting the same way. There were also places called Resonance Wells where the Otaku could contact the Deep Resonance directly. I'd imagine there'd still be places like that on the Matrix. BTW they were usually off the Grids, sort of in the Deep Matrix.
A TM in my group kept compiling a Fault 6 sprite so I had the same one show up all the time in the guise of Duke Nuke'm and he rapidly became a favorite. I tend to play Courier sprites as the UPS Guy from the old Mad TV skits.
I also ran a "Resonance Quest" once to the Realm of Archives and Data Sprites. That was sort of cool. Bascially RPed the TM following the Data Trail "as it happened." Our group also toyed around with the idea of Resonance Quests to grab blue prints for the latest SOTA gear. The thinking was that if it is stored on the Matrix ANYWHERE then it should be in a Resonance Realm somewhere.
There's also the old Otaku stuff to explore. Otaku used to run in tribes or gangs and I cold see TMs acting the same way. There were also places called Resonance Wells where the Otaku could contact the Deep Resonance directly. I'd imagine there'd still be places like that on the Matrix. BTW they were usually off the Grids, sort of in the Deep Matrix.
| QUOTE (Moon-Hawk) | ||
Emergence will tell you lots and lots about what other people think about technomancers. As for real flavor for the VKs ('cause virtuakinetic is way cooler than technomancer) there is some, but not as much as I would have liked. |
I'll have to try and get a copy, that and augmentation, but since I'm not in an active game right now, they're pretty low pri.
For me, I like to think of TM's as people who can't turn off the noise, totally Schizoprenic. That they may go into a store and hear toasters gossiping about blenders. They're not sure if the toasters are really talking, no one else ever hears it, but they do. Some one who sees to another level in reality, or has convinced themselves that they do and make up a reality to go behind the current one.
| QUOTE (Kyoto Kid @ Aug 30 2007, 04:51 PM) |
| ...I usually use Mrs. Dash to bring out the most flavour in TMs. Sometimes though it requires something a bit more robust which is when I break out the Tobasco. |
Damn, beaten to the punch for once.
Oh well great minds and all. Our group generally eliminates all Technos with extreme prejudice. I think they're a lame idea, but we'll see where they take it.
| QUOTE (Draconis) |
| Our group generally eliminates all Technos with extreme prejudice. I think they're a lame idea, but we'll see where they take it. |
Yeah, thats the general consensus, I used to pretty much be opposed to them too. But the more I thought about the reasons, it was just because the rules were weak and that there was no flavor. Like dried ramen with out the "flavor packet", utterly devoid of personality.
So what can you think of to give them any interest?
...must....practise....restraint....
ooooh donuts....
ooooh donuts....
| QUOTE |
| 'cause virtuakinetic is way cooler than technomancer |
That's interesting. The term technomancer has definitely suffered from some overuse in a bunch of RPGs, but I liked that this use of the word is actually very accurate. The term literally means "someone who communicates with technology", and that is exactly what techonomancers do in SR.
| QUOTE (Eryk the Red) | ||
That's interesting. The term technomancer has definitely suffered from some overuse in a bunch of RPGs, but I liked that this use of the word is actually very accurate. The term literally means "someone who communicates with technology", and that is exactly what techonomancers do in SR. |
But anything that ends in "mancer" has a magical connotation, and they already have plenty of that from the rules, as it is. To me, "technomancer" sounds more fantasy, and "virtuakinetic" sounds more cyberpunk.
It's not about the accuracy of the term, it's about baggage, (mine as well as the word's)
| QUOTE (Kyoto Kid @ Aug 30 2007, 11:51 AM) |
| ...I usually use Mrs. Dash ... |
Watch it ... that's what they call my wife!!
| QUOTE (Lagomorph @ Aug 30 2007, 09:10 PM) | ||
Yeah, thats the general consensus, I used to pretty much be opposed to them too. But the more I thought about the reasons, it was just because the rules were weak and that there was no flavor. Like dried ramen with out the "flavor packet", utterly devoid of personality. So what can you think of to give them any interest? |
I hate when there's no flavor packet. I want my spicy beef flavor!!
Anyway..uh what would I do to generate interest? Hmm I think I'd write a book called Unwired and insert all the rules fixes and fluff that wasn't in the base book. Pretty good idea huh?
Seriously though the idea needs polishing. Technos need to be "spun" in a certain manner. Let's use a metaphor for all you following along at home. Hackers use technology extremely well. They're the fishermen of the matrix, they go out every day and cast their datanets and bring in some juicy bytes. Technos live in the oceans of info, they're the dolphins of the matrix. They have to make an effort to ignore the data swirling around em. Squeee! Ahem, sorry.
There better be talking toasters in there. My character already gets advice from his coffee machine and our soda vending machine delivers drugs for us.
| QUOTE (Dashifen @ Aug 30 2007, 04:43 PM) | ||
Watch it ... that's what they call my wife!! |
...good one...
| QUOTE (Draconis) |
| I hate when there's no flavor packet. I want my spicy beef flavor!! Anyway..uh what would I do to generate interest? Hmm I think I'd write a book called Unwired and insert all the rules fixes and fluff that wasn't in the base book. Pretty good idea huh? Seriously though the idea needs polishing. Technos need to be "spun" in a certain manner. Let's use a metaphor for all you following along at home. Hackers use technology extremely well. They're the fishermen of the matrix, they go out every day and cast their datanets and bring in some juicy bytes. Technos live in the oceans of info, they're the dolphins of the matrix. They have to make an effort to ignore the data swirling around em. Squeee! Ahem, sorry. There better be talking toasters in there. My character already gets advice from his coffee machine and our soda vending machine delivers drugs for us. |
I guess so, Too bad unwired is so far out on the time frame.
| QUOTE (Lagomorph) | ||
I guess so, Too bad unwired is so far out on the time frame. |
Look at it this way, at least there is a time frame.
One game I'm doing has a technomancer plotline going on. The players really overanalyze things a lot, and it forced me to come up with a technomancer paradigm. It's actually worked pretty interestingly so far.
Here's the deal:
For technomancers to be viable and interesting they have to do something that's really distinct from Hackers. As presented in the main book they are basically just people who save thousands of nuyen by paying hundreds of karma.
So what I've done is made them inherently "connecting" to devices and information storage around them. Technomancers are easy to beat up in Matrix combat, but havig them be able to remote operate devices that aren't set up to accept remote operation is just out there enough that it grabs the imagination.
And I think it's a virtually required conceit, because if technomancers "just" send out a radio signal everyone is going to switch to Bluetooth and TMs are going to vanish.
-Frank
Here's the deal:
- Technomancers can communicate with machines regardless of what medium of wireless they use, meaning that technomancers can emit radio pulses, magnetic fields, and infrared light. This means that technomancers can display things on their skin that Dwarfs and Trolls can see.
- Technomancers can induce informational changes in wireless or wired devices, which means that they can actually simulate a wired connection within their (highly limited) natural range. So a technomancer can read a datachip that's on a table or hack a drone that is set up to refuse wireless signals.
- Technomancers can be contained with an opaque faraday cage.
For technomancers to be viable and interesting they have to do something that's really distinct from Hackers. As presented in the main book they are basically just people who save thousands of nuyen by paying hundreds of karma.
So what I've done is made them inherently "connecting" to devices and information storage around them. Technomancers are easy to beat up in Matrix combat, but havig them be able to remote operate devices that aren't set up to accept remote operation is just out there enough that it grabs the imagination.
And I think it's a virtually required conceit, because if technomancers "just" send out a radio signal everyone is going to switch to Bluetooth and TMs are going to vanish.
-Frank
Neo comes to mind with your take on TMs (the end of Revolutions at the very least).
It's just a shame that the mechanics are so lame - TMs are a great concept, and an awesome idea, but who would want to play them as they are ?
It's just a shame that the mechanics are so lame - TMs are a great concept, and an awesome idea, but who would want to play them as they are ?
| QUOTE (fumble) |
| Neo comes to mind with your take on TMs (the end of Revolutions at the very least). |
Actually I haven't seen Matrix-3. As it was, I saw Matrix 2: Electric Boogaloo for free and it was so bad that I wanted my money back. I swore a mighty oath that the Matrix franchise would not receive my precious time unless scouts came back gushing with praise. And well... that really hasn't happened, has it?
| QUOTE |
| It's just a shame that the mechanics are so lame - TMs are a great concept, and an awesome idea, but who would want to play them as they are ? |
That's the biggie. TMs have a very complicated way of defining their Matrix attributes, which is capped by their Resonance and all their other stats. The sample TM has spent literally 180 BP on Technomancing and ends up with a 3/5/3/5 Commlink and 21800
worth of programs. Meanwhile of course, a 5/5/5/5 commlink sets you back 10000 - in short you could be better than the sample Technomancer on 6BP as a script kiddie.And I don't think that merely dropping the costs on technomancers is enough (though it's a good start). After all, if Technomantic powers were somehow made cheap enough to be better than hackers, things would be unbalanced the other way. The only way balance can be achieved is to have both character types serve a purpose -even within the same group. The existence of the special Sprite powers makes it pretty clear to me that the niche of Technomancers should be having the ability to use the Matrix in ways that aren't "possible" (as opposed to the Hacker, whose job it is to maximize the potential of what the Matrix allows).
With that viewpoint, I'm actually fine with Technomancers getting their ass handed to them again and again in cyber combat by Hackers. But Technomancers need some sort of sideways paradigm that allows them to cheat the system into letting them be the star of the show sometimes - and that's totally missing from the basic book.
---
Sprites are supposed to be a huge thing. And they are. But as long as Agents are so... not good... the advantages of Sprites really don't matter much. I mean the only current solution to the Agent Smith problem is to talk very openly to the Hacker and say "please don't push the limits of Agents in my campaign." - under the circumstances, what possible difference does it make what a Technomancer can do with his special agents?
-frank
Technomancers need to be able to acquire special abilities that are not duplicates of programs and that are not echoes (simply because echoes are so expensive to get). I've thought about it, and I kind of like the idea of special complex forms (or you can call them something else to avoid confusion) that are other kinds of special abilities. Due to the special nature of these abilities, you'd likely limit the number of these a TM can have (rather than just limiting the rating). These could include the ability to access an electronic device by simply touching it (not requiring any conventional matrix connection), actually having internal data storage (which is unhackable, because it's not a conventional device). Whatever. The details would need to be worked out. But I figure this sort of thing could go a long way toward making TMs more playable.
Hey Frank's back! I tot dat u wuz ded! You were wise to skip Matrix 3, if I had done that I would still like the first movie (maybe even the second one too).
I love the flavor of technomancers and the deep resonance and all that, but Frank's right it costs half your build points just to get what turns out to be a craptacular cyber-commlink that you could have bought off the shelf fully loaded for less than 30k nuyen. Maybe if they got all that just for the cost of the TM quality instead of having to pay for Resonance and Complex Forms, they might be interesting. A 30k cybercommlink = 6 BP, a collection of agents doesn't cost more than another 30k, so a technomancer and all his complex forms and sprites shouldn't cost more than 15 BP total.
Giving the TM the ability to hack and communicate with all electronic devices by touch or line-of-sight would go a long way to making TMs unique. Activator nanites let you do it (for several thousand nuyen per dose), but TMs should be able to do it by default for free.
Unhackable internal data storage (or at least unhackable by a non-TM) would also be nice. Maybe that could be a new power for a bound sprite. As a remote service, the sprite can hold as much data as you want forever and can't be hacked except by a TM.
I love the flavor of technomancers and the deep resonance and all that, but Frank's right it costs half your build points just to get what turns out to be a craptacular cyber-commlink that you could have bought off the shelf fully loaded for less than 30k nuyen. Maybe if they got all that just for the cost of the TM quality instead of having to pay for Resonance and Complex Forms, they might be interesting. A 30k cybercommlink = 6 BP, a collection of agents doesn't cost more than another 30k, so a technomancer and all his complex forms and sprites shouldn't cost more than 15 BP total.
Giving the TM the ability to hack and communicate with all electronic devices by touch or line-of-sight would go a long way to making TMs unique. Activator nanites let you do it (for several thousand nuyen per dose), but TMs should be able to do it by default for free.
Unhackable internal data storage (or at least unhackable by a non-TM) would also be nice. Maybe that could be a new power for a bound sprite. As a remote service, the sprite can hold as much data as you want forever and can't be hacked except by a TM.
I don't think that's an accurate view (Buster and Frank). The TM's "commlink" is dual-purpose. The stats function as meatspace stats as well. Not that this justifies the insane cost of being a TM, but it is something to consider.
Frank,
Thanks for the ideas, it's definately a different spin and I do agree that TM's need some ability that is orthogonal to what a hacker can already do. I think sprites were supposed to fill that but fell short.
As for matrix 3... *shudder*
Thanks for the ideas, it's definately a different spin and I do agree that TM's need some ability that is orthogonal to what a hacker can already do. I think sprites were supposed to fill that but fell short.
As for matrix 3... *shudder*
You're all a bit too harsh on the Matrix trilogy.
I've watched it again - Animatrix included - recently (mmm... like 3 months ago), and I think there is a lot to say for the continuity and consistency of the universe.
I think what got to us back in the day was the fact that it was clearly not what we expected - the humans don't really "win", the prophecy is bogus, the situation looks like it's being resolved by a Deus Ex Machina, etc...
But in the end, it's a universe which is very consistent with itself - and with a number of mythological elements.
And should we really hold it against a movie that it doesn't unfold as we'd expected ?
Anyway, for those that read french, here is an excellent explanation of the Matrix trilogy by a sci-fi enthusiast - also gifted in philosophy and mythology.
Cheers,
Fumble.
I've watched it again - Animatrix included - recently (mmm... like 3 months ago), and I think there is a lot to say for the continuity and consistency of the universe.
I think what got to us back in the day was the fact that it was clearly not what we expected - the humans don't really "win", the prophecy is bogus, the situation looks like it's being resolved by a Deus Ex Machina, etc...
But in the end, it's a universe which is very consistent with itself - and with a number of mythological elements.
And should we really hold it against a movie that it doesn't unfold as we'd expected ?
Anyway, for those that read french, here is an excellent explanation of the Matrix trilogy by a sci-fi enthusiast - also gifted in philosophy and mythology.
Cheers,
Fumble.
| QUOTE (Kerris) |
| I don't think that's an accurate view (Buster and Frank). The TM's "commlink" is dual-purpose. The stats function as meatspace stats as well. Not that this justifies the insane cost of being a TM, but it is something to consider. |
True, but requiring a technomancer to have a high Charisma just seems anti-pattern to me. Call me old school, but I think uberhackers should be weird and borderline autistic, not charming social butterflies.
But again, you're comparing technomancers to hackers. Is that not what we have to get away from in order to view technomancers as their own entity? I know canon doesn't imply it, but perhaps technomancers are, in fact, charismatic.
As mentioned previously, the otaku formed gangs and organizations. This implies some sort of leadership ability - or, perhaps, just a relatively high charisma.
Maybe what we need to do is let the stats create the flavor, instead of forcing the flavor on the stats.
As mentioned previously, the otaku formed gangs and organizations. This implies some sort of leadership ability - or, perhaps, just a relatively high charisma.
Maybe what we need to do is let the stats create the flavor, instead of forcing the flavor on the stats.
| QUOTE (Kerris) |
| As mentioned previously, the otaku formed gangs and organizations. This implies some sort of leadership ability - or, perhaps, just a relatively high charisma. |
So do Trekkies.
Oof. You got me there.
I don't know whether this has been suggested before, but what if Complex Forms were treated more as spells than as programs?
- At chargen, a TM can purchase CFs at 2BP a piece.
- To use a CF, the character rolls Resonance + Skill (Computer, Hacking, Electronic Warfare)
This saves the average starting technomancer 30 to 50 points. I'm not quite sure what happens to Threading, though. Whaddya think?
- At chargen, a TM can purchase CFs at 2BP a piece.
- To use a CF, the character rolls Resonance + Skill (Computer, Hacking, Electronic Warfare)
This saves the average starting technomancer 30 to 50 points. I'm not quite sure what happens to Threading, though. Whaddya think?
| QUOTE (Kerris) |
| I don't know whether this has been suggested before, but what if Complex Forms were treated more as spells than as programs? - At chargen, a TM can purchase CFs at 2BP a piece. |
Are you going to lower the cost of a Mage's spells too?
My bad... thought it was 2, it was 3. So, it's only a savings of 20 to 30 points. But still.
A slight change I have considered for trying in mine as a tweak... I like TMs but do think they are a little shorted on karma / build points costs.
All TMs start with all Complex Forms at rating 0. (note quite the same as not having it).
Build points are spent in a specific order:
Attributes (to include resonnace and qualitys and flaws)
Skills (to include complex forms / spells)
Cyberware/Bioware
(this alone helps the abuse of: by mage/tm quality, buy one magic/resonance, buy some cyber/bio, buy one magix/resoance, .. repeat)_
When a complex form is raise in rating. and number of other comples forms equal to (resonance-1 (or perhaps half reasonance have decided which), or equal or lesser rating are also raised for free.
Thus
creation buy TM
Buy reasonance to 5
Buy: Stealth 1 (also get to raise 4 or 2/3 other complx forms: say attack, armor, analyze)
Buy stealth 2 (also get to raise 4 or 2/3 other complex forms (for more effecient results the same as above, or you are wasing 'build points' but you get the picture).
This doesnt change the 'rules' for how CFs work. Threading (sprites aiding, etc) all work the same, yet the TM is getting a noticable break on karma costs, is allwoed to spread out some
All TMs start with all Complex Forms at rating 0. (note quite the same as not having it).
Build points are spent in a specific order:
Attributes (to include resonnace and qualitys and flaws)
Skills (to include complex forms / spells)
Cyberware/Bioware
(this alone helps the abuse of: by mage/tm quality, buy one magic/resonance, buy some cyber/bio, buy one magix/resoance, .. repeat)_
When a complex form is raise in rating. and number of other comples forms equal to (resonance-1 (or perhaps half reasonance have decided which), or equal or lesser rating are also raised for free.
Thus
creation buy TM
Buy reasonance to 5
Buy: Stealth 1 (also get to raise 4 or 2/3 other complx forms: say attack, armor, analyze)
Buy stealth 2 (also get to raise 4 or 2/3 other complex forms (for more effecient results the same as above, or you are wasing 'build points' but you get the picture).
This doesnt change the 'rules' for how CFs work. Threading (sprites aiding, etc) all work the same, yet the TM is getting a noticable break on karma costs, is allwoed to spread out some
One of my house rules (that I run with or ask for depending on whether I'm playing or GMing) is that Essence loss equates to a Maximum Magic / Resonance loss.
As such, installing some cybereyes and ears would lower your Essence to 5.6 or so. That under RAW would mean you'd lose a point of Magic / Resonance.
Under the house rule, it'd leave your current rating alone insofar as your current rating doesn't exceed your maximum + initiation/submersion.
So using the example from above, if you had bought Magic up to 5, installed some cyber which lowered your max Magic to 5, you'd not lose any Magic. I would however insist that you pay the BP fee for maxing out an attribute since installing that 'ware lowered your maximum.
As such, installing some cybereyes and ears would lower your Essence to 5.6 or so. That under RAW would mean you'd lose a point of Magic / Resonance.
Under the house rule, it'd leave your current rating alone insofar as your current rating doesn't exceed your maximum + initiation/submersion.
So using the example from above, if you had bought Magic up to 5, installed some cyber which lowered your max Magic to 5, you'd not lose any Magic. I would however insist that you pay the BP fee for maxing out an attribute since installing that 'ware lowered your maximum.
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