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QUOTE (Emperor Tippy)
It's the bombs you supposedly have all over the city that are a threat. The ones they have no idea where are and can't ever hope to find in time....

I'm treating them as a corp with stiff competition who has a contract that they can't afford to lose. Collateral damage doesn't matter in and of its self to LS. What matters is that they weren't able to prevent a terrorist attack on the sprawl. And Knight Errant would make sure that it was played to the hilt.

You're quite right that in the hostage scenario you describe, the hostages in the building with you (and you yourselves) are not the prime concern -- losing the contract to KE due to a citywide screwup with bioweapons is something they will work to mitigate. (Or, they could just blame it on You Terrorists and kill you anyways.) However, I think this is still an extremely risky plan. However, as you've pointed out, once the Star is there, you're already screwed, so it's not like things can get much worse for you.

QUOTE (Emperor Tippy)
Also, I'm using/abusing your logic that 3-4 agents will be in everyone's possession.

15K for a rating 6 agent. An hour to break the copy protection. 6K or so for a rating 6 response comlink. Everyone on my team will have them. Lone star might or might not.

I find it hard to believe that a well-equipped and funded Runner team will have better EW/Comm equipment than the elite HRT team of a company who regularly has to face teams just like yours. They are going to have SOTA communications gear, because the company can afford to spend that. When one HRT agent's wired III, eyewear, and other fun toys are several hundred thousand nuyen, do you really think the accountants will blink at an extra 15 or 30 thousand? I don't. As soon as the local cops find out that they have a situation like this on their hands, you BET they are calling in the extremely well-equipped HRT team. I would expect these guys to be kitted out like Red Samurai or any other corporate hit-squad, or else they wouldn't be able to field resources to meet the needs of their customers.

Yes, but [setting up another runner team as bait] is just 1 way and isn't one you should use often.

Most of the preparatory things you've mentioned involve a lot of pre-planning and pre-run setup:
- hacked commlinks/sensors
- explosive drones at key locations
- bait team
- explosives/etc at key locations in the city, as well as fake ones (also with working signal-handling comlinks, so that they look the same from the Matrix).

All of these require you to already be expecting to need to hold off the Star. Some degree of this is wise (I'd say the first two), but again -- you'd already have to know that this was an especially high-profile run and that you would NEED the bait team in place. These don't seem suitable for the runs-that-went-south-before-you-wanted-them-to. Rather, these are the "you're already screwed, so try to avoid getting capped/caught" scenarios.

It really seems like the best practice is really to Do Not Get Noticed. Like the TIE pilot's mantra ("don't get hit"), you really want to avoid attracting the Star's attention in the first place. They're at least as well (if not better) equipped as you are (especially for newer characters), and have a legion of off-scene resources they can throw at you.


To keep from seeming like I'm spamming this thread (sorry!), I'll add this as an edit:

QUOTE (Tarantula)
QUOTE (Emperor Tippy @ Sep 29 2007, 11:02 AM)
You have never seen what a few grams of explosives can do? It won't take out a car but it will take out its tire.

Sure and the vehicle makes a crash test, easily passes it, and is at a -2 to its handling.

Any team that is planning enough ahead to plant ONE micro-drone with explosives in the wheel-well surely has the resources to plant multiple ones. Losing a tire is nonfatal, but what's the penalty for losing a wheel? What about losing two wheels? If you know ahead of time which cars you want to disable, it should be quite easy to set up measures to:
- cut brake cables
- remove the wheel from the axle with thermite

Neither of these are all that complex (if you're already able to navigate a drone to a wheel well of the parked car ...), and pretty much just scale linearly with the amount and type of explosives. If you need to disable two wheels, multiply the cost by two.
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)
...I basically play (when I GM) transceiver broadcasts being totally different from wireless comm. Just like today where a two way radio or walkie talkie uses different bands than cell or wifi transmission.

So hence,. no matrix involvement.

As to complexity. For anyone with a decent electronics skill (which is important in modern demolitions) this is not really a big issue. A low power transceiver (rating 1) & a cheap commlink are not that much of an investment for an important demo job. I have seen (and been on) runner teams that have put a lot more nuyen.gif into a diversion than what I proposed. Granted I skimmed most of the thread so I am not sure if the hostage thing was a "last ditch" or part of the overall plan. I was just making a suggestion of how to keep the matrix out of the bomb loop.

The intresting thing though is none of the matrix is really defined, and to me setting up two walkie talkies and connecting them is the same as setting up two high signal low response/firewall etc nodes, and logically someone in the middle can indeed sniff the traffic with their sniffer program or jam it with a jammer.

But YMMV - it does make sense that you could sniff or jam that traffic, and then by extension you could intercept/edit the traffic.

It's a puzzling thing. I might go start a new thread about it.
Back on page 1, I'd like to know where the 'Star is getting these unlimited resources.

30-40 Deckers? Pro Rating 6 Spell casters? 160 Rating six elite agents?

The equivalent of a UCAS tank battalion?

Lone Star is overworked, understaffed, and on top of that, I REALLY have a hard time seeing them getting authority to pull stunts like that.
If you have 250,000 employees (There are 675,000 sworn police in the US) you can probably find some very skilled ones for use in emergencies.
A quarter of a million cops. For the whole company, or just Seattle? Lone Star's a pretty big name, they are going to have guys working for groups other than City of Seattle.

Do those numbers for Lone Star include dispatchers, medical and administrative personnel, desk sergeants, mechanics, or Bob, the Ork janitor?

(and, where'd you get that number, anyway?)

And also, that's spread over HOW MANY Seattle residents?

QUOTE (Runner's Haven Page 62)
Four million UCAS citizens live in the Metroplex, with up to
a five hundred thousand transients visiting every day. Those
are the official numbers, mind. Rough estimates place the actual
population closer to six million.

So, 4 million citizens, half a million... tourists, an untold number of SINless, and other non-UCAS citizen (which would be part of, but not entirely included in the half a million figure).

For ease of math, we'll say it's seven million people. Seven million, to a quarter of a million. That's one cop for every 28 people, assuming they are all working the streets, which they are not.

We'll say a typical 'Star patrol works a 12 hour day, like most modern cops do.

That gives us 125,000 LSPD personnel. (1 per 56)

Now, they only work 4, maybe five days a week. So, we'll reduce the number by 4.5, for the occasional over-achiever. That give us about 80,357 LS peronnel working at any given time.(1 per 87.1)

And that's if no one calls in sick/injured. We'll say.... 8% are sick or injured. No reason, just picked the number off the top of my head.

That leves us with a total force of 73928.57 cops on the job at anytime. One Lone Star worker for every 94.6 people.

And that doesn't even include taking personnel out of the pool for special forces, SWAT, and the like.
kzt That's just full-time paid sworn police officers, not civilian support.

Lone Star has contracts across NA. Hackers and mages don't have to be local. The others get slammed in by high speed aircraft with movement power. Which takes time, but not that much at 3000 MPH.
That.... really doesn't address anything I was asking about.
Lets start from basics.

The average number of police in the US is 3.5 per thousand people. You typically have about 1/5 to 1/6th of these on duty at any given time.

So typically you have maybe 600 cops on duty per million population. This varies depending on how many cops the city wants to pay for. NYC has a lot more cops on duty then LA does per population. But researching this would take work.
Ok, and we're talking about the Sixth World, not the real world.
Duh. So what's your point? You went off on an irrational tangent where you were assuming that 1/10 people was an armed lone star cop.

You think order of magnitude 250,000 lone star cops is too many or too few? Why?

Why can't a quarter of a million armed law enforcement types come up with 30-40 hackers and a dozen highly skilled mages to deal with a major short-term crisis?
Did you even READ that post I made?

Jugding by your 1/10 comment, this is a case of tl;dr, on your part. sarcastic.gif
QUOTE (AbNo @ Oct 3 2007, 12:01 PM)
Back on page 1, I'd like to know where the 'Star is getting these unlimited resources.

30-40 Deckers? Pro Rating 6 Spell casters? 160 Rating six elite agents?

The equivalent of a UCAS tank battalion?

Lone Star is overworked, understaffed, and  on top of that, I REALLY have a hard time seeing them getting authority to pull stunts like that.

High profile crisis, you may as well break out the big guns.

Remember as Lone star will have IT support, rating 6 agents are actually free after the first once which they developed in house. They could have hundreds of them for less than it costs to pay a bunch of deckers. So they will.

As for the rest of it, just one way you could do it is:

The 30-40 deckers are just some of the guys responsible for lonestar's security *globally*. With the ease of hacking in SRverse they are going to have to have a security response team for when they find someone trying to break into one of Lone stars offices nationally or internationally, probably employed on some shift basis. You'd certainly call them up for a high profile terrorism case. You want to make sure KE doesn't get your contract. Imagine what resources would be called up today if a terrorist announced he had planted multiple bombs all over Seattle.

They are probably actually all Indians/Mexicans/whatever from an outsourced security consultancy that is a sub division of Tata.

Mages are probably shamanistic, recruited from a consulting firm the same way and astrally projecting from india. A magical consulting firm could have trained staff look for magically active people in remote and regional areas of afganistan, pakistan and india, then offer them long term contracts on high salaries to lure them into the consulting firm, which then pimps them out to other companies as an on call resource.

So you pay the company a modest retainer, then you can requisition astrally projecting mages from them based on an hourly rate.

Everyone would be making a killing. Labour arbitrage.

But lonestar are likely to have a huge number of IT contractors sitting around. You could totally use them.

I feel a point I made earlier bears repeating. Someone is threatening multiple bombings. This is a terrorist attack. Look at what would happen today. The place would be crawling with police in 10 seconds flat.
Kyoto Kid
...I have also been supporting a similar stance in the Campaign Start London ClusterFrag thread.

You create a huge enough crisis such as the riots proposed in the OP of that particular thread, and the Authorities are not just going to sit around with their thumbs in their ears. They are going to bring the Million Tonne S**tHammer down on you.

[...with all due respect to Hunter S. Thompson]smokin.gif
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