Now that the Lounge is closed, I'm not sure if this is the proper place to post this message. I guess I'll just give it a stab...

My wife and I are expecting our first child in about 2 weeks. Both of us have been gaming for many years now. I know that our life will change drastically once the baby comes, and I'm a little worried that gaming might have to become a thing of the past for us. If that's the way it is, so be it...my son is more important. Still, I'd like to keep gaming as part of my life if possible.

Are there any gaming parents out there? If so, I'd love to hear how you managed to game around an infant/toddler. Any advice would be greatly appreciated...

I'm going to join that group in about four months : ) I do know of some people who've kept gaming with kids, although usually it turns to something involving less commitment like PBEM. I know these people periodically (like once a year to once every six months) get together to have an afternoon of gaming. I think a lot of it comes down to how big of a priority this is to you and if you can find a group who shares that level of dedication. I'm expecting to play maybe once a month in the first six months, later if you're still interested it gets progressively easier (yay for babysitters!)

Oh, and congratulations : )

I'm not a gaming parent, but I do game regularly with one -- the father of a 3 year old daughter and a 1 year old son. Obviously, he manages to make time for gaming, although we're used to interruptions of various kinds. I don't think it's that big of a deal, unless you're a serious "mood" gamer, in which case, hire a babysitter to take the kid out of the house.

We play weekly, although more often than not it's 2-3 times a month depending on who's doing what, especially as two of us are frequently out of town during con season and the like.

I never really had too much problem gaming when I had my kids. As Adam said, if worst comes to worst, hire a babysitter for the session...or better yet, give some relatives some quality time.

And if worse comes to worse and you can't play with your regular group, see if there aren't any gaming parents in your area to play with. It's easier to play when you know your group will understand if you need to pause to feed the baby, or help your toddler use the toilet, or help an older child with homework.

I have two school-age children myself, and while gaming has been sparse for me in terms of on a tabletop, there are any number of online games I've played and could try again. I've recently found a gaming couple with a young toddler; they have a weekly to biweekly game that I may be able to join.

I just had a baby 10 weeks ago and I have yet to miss a game since she was born. It is possible. My wife, who is also and avid SR player hasn't been as lucky, but her withdrawl has been voluntary. She has been to a few games since Rheya was born. Rheya sleeps through the whole game (I have a great little sleeper) no problem, right next to the table.
Irene's comfortable breastfeeding her through the game, etc, etc. She withdrew because the game manage to confuse both Mom's and baby's sleep schedules and made for a couple long nights.

If the game is important enough, there are ways to make it work.

SR13

I've got to say, the advice you people have been giving me has really helped put my fears to rest. I know it's going to take some serious adjusting, not just from me and my wife, but also from the friends we game with. Still, from what you have all been saying, it's not impossible to mix parenthood with gaming. Thanks a lot for all your replies, they're really helping...

My kids are 17 and 13 years old, and I've maintained a weekly game through most of those years. The other parent's I've spoken with generally limit themselves to one game per week, which is good for anyone wanting to stay in a relationship, let alone being a parent.

as i have dated girls with kids i would have to say the gaming might get cut down a bit, but its not impossible to run a life and a game at the same time.

I have no children of my own. I've gamed with many people that do have children. Children take a lot away from gaming if they're present (annoyance). Children take some away from gaming when they're not present (time limits, scheduling). Some children of gamers have problems coping with reality when their parents are always talking about or looking at game material.

Think about the things that you're used to when you think "gaming". How's the language at the gaming table? The subject matter? The music? What do you eat? Drink? Could you tell your kid that the food/drink isn't for them? How would the kid react? How clean is the area during and after gaming? Is your kid old enough to avoid putting whatever they get their hands on in their mouth? What can they get their hands on in your gaming area? Dice? Miniatures? Do you or any of the others get mad now when a player gets a phone call, has to leave for a few minutes, or runs late and the game gets stalled? What would the players do if the kid wrecked the map in a tantrum or just while exploring? Would the smell of a fouled diaper or the sight of a child vomiting be accepted well? What will you and the others do when the screaming begins? If it won't end? Can you afford a babysitter or have relatives nearby?

It's a lot to think about.

This isn't to say that people, or even gamers, shouldn't have kids. Kids can be the best thing that ever happened to a person/couple. Gamers (more often than not) are smarter than the average person and more intelligent people need to start having kids or we're all going to be screwed. Kids just have a major impact on gaming or whatever other entertainment you may have enjoyed prior to having kids. Whether your chosen entertainment is gaming, drinking/dancing, sports, or something else, kids tend to get screwed up if the parent doesn't cut back or - possibly worse - takes them along. It's unfair to the kids not to cut back on entertainment and it's unfair to your fellow gamers to expect them to bear the responsibility of your children for/with you.

I highly recommend gaming with people that also have children, as they'll be able to accept and deal with all the baggage that kids bring with them. The kids can hang out together and do kid things instead of hanging out at the gaming table and hearing/seeing things that maybe they shouldn't or aren't ready to. Maybe even take turns babysitting for the other gamers so everyone can game worry free for a couple days a month. Just be wary of the consequences for you, your spouse, your kid, and your fellow gamers.

The concerns you brought up just point to some of the things one needs to be aware of as a parent who games. (And not a gamer who is a parent. Notice the difference in emphasis.)

1. Social atmosphere.
You're an adult. You like to talk about adult topics with those who are, presumably, adults. However, if there is a difference in which particular topics you cover with your gaming group and with any other group of friends (aside from the obvious violence that happens in any game), you need to seriously consider the presence of young children. You also need to seriously reconsider if what you're discussing is healthy or not. ("You" meaning not just you, but the rest of the group, too.) If what you might joke about at the gaming table would get, at best, get stares, glares or expressions of disgust at other places, then it's time to stop. At the very least, get a babysitter so your children don't hear it. Those who might be old enough to hear it and have mature discussions about it usually will either be playing the game with you, or will be going out with their own friends anyway.

2. Your group and their social (mis)functioning.
Would you hang out with your group outside of gaming? Or are these the sort of folks everyone jokes about regarding the gaming community, like Cat Piss Man or Basement Boy? If your answer is the latter, do yourself a favor and don't expose your children to them except as an example of what not to do or be. Children don't just look to their parents as role-models: they look at all adults that way. If they see Cat Piss Man always leaving a mess, never chipping in for pizza or playing fairly ... hear him whine when he doesn't get his way, telling racist or sexist jokes, or describing his character performing a graphic and unwanted sex act on another character ... smell his disgusting hygiene or witness other examples of unhealthy practices ... think of what the kids will pick up on. Having him around while you call him "friend" will make them think that you find this acceptable, even if you've taught them otherwise.

On the other hand, having a group that can behave at least civilly toward your children, who help clean up the messes, share snacks (and really: having junk food now and then for your child isn't going to hurt them, and you can always make or buy slightly healthier things to share with the group if you're that concerned), play fair and are generally fun to hang around with at any occasion can be a good example to your children of how adults should interact between themselves and toward children. They learn from watching and listening, and then emulating the behavior with their own friends. The more good examples you provide, the better off socially they'll be as well. Think of it as giving them more tools to be good or better people.

3. Your commitment level, a.k.a. your priorities.
What's your commitment levels to gaming and parenting? Which is the hobby, and which is your life? Think on that. If you think more about the character you create, or the next game to play, than you think about how Suzie is doing in school or how to potty train little Ronnie, then it's time to cut way back on the gaming. Your children, despite what you may think, do pick up on your behavior. Do you want them thinking that something, anything, is more important to you than they are? If they're old enough, don't let them tell you that it's okay. It's not: this can have a serious impact on their self-esteem if they believe that they're not #1 in your heart (even if they have to share that spot with a sibling).

While gaming can be good, escapist fun, don't forget that first and foremost you are a parent. All else takes a backseat to that. If your gaming group can't understand that, then it's time to find another gaming group that can.

With newborns gaming can be a bit tough. but as the kid gets older and has a regular bed time (1 1/2 - 2 years) it gets easier, we game once a week at my house, with people I have known since well before the birth of my now 4 yeard old. Game starts right after his bed time story (7:30 - 8pm) and goes until midnight. Generally everyone arrives early to socialize and get that out of the way before gaming starts in earnst. Everyone of my gaming group knows and accept my wife and I are parents first and gamers second.

We used to try and game at other people's houses and bring a portable crib. but it was too hard on us, our child and our friends. So games moved to our house, and its worked much better ( every thursday for almost 2 years now ).

So, Yes, there is Gaming after kids. you just have to make adjustments.

With the right crew, I even think children _should_ have the chance to witness a gaming group. A bunch of Adults, sitting around, engaging in a healthy, social activity with other adults, that doesn't involve a TV, Alcohol, or other social 'vices'. I think kids seeing adults they know and respect taking part in an intellcual active can't be all bad. Obviously this only works if you gaming crew actually IS ressponsible adults, but hey.. I'm lucky that way I guess.

Congrats btw. Kids are great. Just look forward to the day when you help him roll up his first character

I just can't agree with Kage no Tora here.

Every speaking child that I've ever seen gets wound up the second visitors arrive and goes into a freakish fit the second someone tells them they need to go to bed (or tries to make them go to bed) while the visitors are there. This isn't a rare one-shot thing, but happens each and every time across several families.

Also, every kid of gamers gets a healthy dose of adults avoiding reality. Even if swearing is unheard, even if Cat Piss and the others aren't part of the group, and even if content is kept to a safe® level, the kid still can hear about his parents pretending to kill guards, monsters, or whatever else using a variety of weapons, spells, and techniques. Say what you will, but kids pick up on everything they experience in a hurry and they cannot separate reality from fiction as well as a rational adult. When they experience the same inputs weekly for years, those inputs will shape their personalities and goals.

Many parents talk about how much they hate work - always have and always will. Kids pick up on that and they don't want to work, either. Parents talk about how much they can't wait to relax, head to a bar, watch TV, hang out with friends, or whatever. Kids pick up on that and, more often than not, you'll see the kid wanting to do the same things before they hit their teens and certainly thereafter. Kids pick up on the parent as a role model and also on the parent's interests as role models. They want to be with the parents and do what they do, dislike what they dislike, and enjoy what they enjoy. In some cases, this means that the kid becomes a fan of a football player or a musician and maybe even wants to be one. In others, it means a kid becomes a racist or a democrat or a christian. In others still, this means that the kid becomes a fan of Shadowrun or whatever other game is played and maybe even the kid wants to become something from that.

I guess what I'm saying is that you should be very careful to ensure that your child knows the difference between reality and fiction, as well as the relative importance of each. Make sure they choose role models that will allow them to become the adults they have to become. I personally know kids who will be screwed up for life because of gaming parents who didn't make this known soon enough or often enough. Some are already in their teens and they've been freaks all their lives, with things only getting worse as they get older. Having a kid makes you responsible for them in every way, you either live up to that or you don't, but the kid's the one who pays the price if you don't.

Yikes, bwdemon, that's a pretty dismal view of gaming and children. I really don't think that exposing my son to gaming (in a responsible environment with responsible adult gamers) will necessarily stunt his social development. At least I hope not...

Besides, I know several parents my age with kids, and many of those kids are socially screwed up -- without any exposure to gaming whatsoever. I think it really all boils down to the attitude of the parents. Do they see the child as a distraction or chore in their life, or as an important responsibility that must be nurtured and loved? I've seen way too many of the former, and I hope to be one of the latter.

Obviously, it seems as though you have experience with this situation, so don't think that I'm dismissing your opinion. Still, I've always found gaming to be a rewarding social experience, one that stimulates creativity and imagination. I'd really hate to think that something I've come to enjoy could be damaging to my child's development. How different can gaming be from any of the other make-believe games that children play?

BTW, my son James was born on 12/1. He was 6lbs., 9 oz. and 20 inches long. Both he and my wife are home and doing fine.

bw does have some validity in his points, however. If, in your game you hate cops, that will reflect to a degree on your children, especially if you don't emphasize in real life you like cops, or that police do an important job. If you're playing with a young audience, you need to make sure that you and your friends are playing out favorable characteristics to help impress these ideas in your child's mind.

I don't think that children are going to grow up being confused as to whether their parents are really humans or orks, however, or otherwise retreating from reality. We read children bedtime stories for years and they don't come away really believing that dragons will eat you. I don't think that seeing parents roleplaying will cause children to want to avoid reality any more than seeing us enjoy a movie or a book will. In fact, I think the excercise will encourage children to be more creative and let them know that it's alright to play make believe sometimes.

Actually after nearly two years of the same routine, my son pretty much excepts that bedtime is bedtime regardless if the gaming crew is there or not. (admitedly he is 4, and hiccups do occur occasionally) But for the most part its a stable part of his routine.

And yes, I didn't mention it in the first post, but we do have 'talks' about the difference between real life and pretend. For instance, when playing with him, we often do 'imaginary' stuff with his toys, and its called 'pretending' and I use the same label for what I do with my friends. we're just 'pretending'. So yes I agree its very important to help you child learn the difference between reality and escapism. But thats a part of Any parents job, gamer or not. (TV, Movies, heck even Cartoons need the same lessons associated with them) I happen to think gamers are often better able to help their kids through these lessons, having better models for describing the difference between 'pretend' and reality.

Yes he'll take his toy knights and dragons (Love playschool toys, love'em) and 'save' the princess (often with the dragon eating the knight more often than not.. his addition.. boys love for big animals to eat things I guess) but he )I am 90% sure. obviously I can't read his mind) knows its just a game. Likewise he some times hears Daddy talk about fighting dragons (SR isn't our only game we've played in 2 years) but I tell him Daddy's just pretending' and he can make the same association.

So while I will agree with your points about needing to teach kids the difference between reality and subreality. This is not just the job of Gamer parents, its the job of Every parent. It happens to be my opinion Adult games (RPGs) make excellent models for kids to see Adults 'pretending' and then going back to 'real life' afterwards.

I had the best DnD GM in the world. I mean he was really excellent. When he had his kid, the game stopped dead in its tracks. His commitment is too his wife and child, and he feels that he doesn't have enough time to plan a game and then run it. He has run with us a few times playing Shadowrun since then, and I see him an uncanny amount around town so we stay in touch.

Obviously playing is a much different level of commitment then GM'ing. If you GM I think you'll find that you just dont have enough time, unless RPG's is your only hobby ...but if your a player, I doubt it'll be a real concern, as long as its okay with your wife, and since she's a gamer no worries!