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JakeMorley
Hi all - this is my first post to this forum, so I hope the question isn't too stupid.

I'm currently playing D&D with my group, and when this campaign winds down I'd like to run Shadowrun. It's been awhile since I've done so, and I've only run Third Edition once and played it twice. I have almost all the Third Edition stuff (and a good variety of First and Second) . Anyway, my group includes several cyberpunk (as a genre) and comic book fans. One player inquired about the possibility of making a character who "fights like Wolverine", which I guess is fair enough.

So my question is: what would be the best way to do this, and since I'm the GM, what would be a reasonable level to allow? I'm thinking something along the lines of bone lacing and cyberspurs on each arm (I'm sure he will buy some other cyberware as well). I understand this would let him do (1.5 * STR)M damage. Could he buy the Ambidextrous edge or Off Hand Weapon to increase his dice pool as well? Would this work in conjunction with the extra damage, or would he have to choose between extra dice for a (STR)M hit versus base dice for an (1.5 * STR)M hit?

Thanks.
Siege
Oy.

I'd say he wouldn't need to buy ambi for using melee weapons. And since he's using the same weapons in tandem, I wouldn't even require him to buy the "off-hand" weapon skill. Go with the (Str * 1.5)M ruling -- if he buy any Strength augs, that'll be nasty enough as it is.

Although you will have to decide how to rule an attack on two targets -- it's a Wolverine thing.

In that instance, I'd go with +2 on the primary hand, +4 on the off-hand unless he did buy Ambi and then knock it down to +2/+2.

-Siege
Shockwave_IIc
I would give him the option of either rolling more dice OR do Str 1*5M damage.

You could give him Pentjak-silat which (while karma/skill point intesive) would allow him to buy maneuvers for his Cyber implant skill. He would only need it at 4 to get multi-strike for Cyber combat.

[ Spoiler ]
Ol' Scratch
There's no reason to deny a character with spurs or related weapons their special (Strength+50%) Power bonus. It was just as balanced when there were no Ambidexterity/Off-Hand Weapon skills as it is afterwards. Before, they were still doing that much damage with 6 dice while opponents only had 6 dice with their weapon. Now, they can get 9 dice while opponents can have 9 dice for the same investment in Skills and Edges. The balance is maintained.

Especially considering that they had to buy the weapon twice, just like any other dual-weilder. And on top of that, they had to pay Essence for it. They still have to buy the edge, just like any other dual-weilder would, and they have to buy the Skill, just like anyone else would.

It's a unique characteristic of spurs, just like a Katana has Reach or a Whip can entangle. It helps keep them "up to par" with other melee weapons, and thus maintain the "cyberpunk" feel of the game. Denying a player a weapon's unique characteristic for no other reason than an ill-conceived belief that it's somehow munchkiny (even though it's clearly not) is just lame in my book.
Game2BHappy
We have a couple people doing the double spur routine in our game as well and having a great time with their characters.

We only allow either the strength increase from both weapons or the dice increase (if they have the approprate off-hand skill or ambi). However, they can choose which one they want to use when declare their attack. This allows them the flexibility of both options, just not at the same time.
Alania
One of the main thingies with Wolverine's style to fight was that he had few reasons to care about wounds thanks to his mutant healing power

..you might want to think about the "immortal flower" from m&m
quite powerful ...but you have to think about it every time you try to use it
if you get hurt ...in the end you pay for it still.
Ancient History
Lessee...last time I made a Wolverine for a game, it was a wolf shapeshifter with amnesia, titanium bone lacing, dikoted retractable cyberspurs, radio-activated invoked memory stimulator, and an adrenal gland with some senseware. All delta-grade/cultured.
Kurukami
I had been under the impression that cyberware implanted on shapeshifters promptly was promptly extracted from the system by the shapeshifting ability (from what I recall of the subject from the Shadowrun Companion). Thus, all that various nifty delta-grade stuff would promptly fall off his bones....
Ancient History
Incorrect! The cyber is only rejected if he tries to shift form. Except in the case of sufficiently invasive cyberware, which prevents that. Or, in this case, by amnesia to make sure he "forgets" he's a shapeshifter.
Ol' Scratch
No, not incorrect. House rule. The rules for Shapeshifters explicitly say that cyberware is a no-no. There's only a rumor that it's possible, and that's all it is -- a rumor... and doing so locks them into human form as opposed to what you just said.
Ancient History
That's the POINT, Doc. Besides which, it never says anywhere in the SrComp that they cannot get cyberware, only that they cannot WILLINGLY get cyberware, and that it usually gets rejected soon after if the surgery is successful.

So, it is unlikey, but within the domain of the GM (since this was an NPC character in my camapign at the time).
Ol' Scratch
ohplease.gif
Fortune
QUOTE (Game2BHappy)
We only allow either the strength increase from both weapons or the dice increase (if they have the approprate off-hand skill or ambi). However, they can choose which one they want to use when declare their attack. This allows them the flexibility of both options, just not at the same time.

Rob Boyle's response to this question when it was raised earlier is that the rules in no way supercede each other, and so both are applicable.
Glyph
For Wolverine as a cybered character, get cyberspurs on both arms, dikote them, get the 6-point Ambidexterity Edge, then get titanium bone lacing and some senseware. For bioware, get enhanced articulation, symbiotes, and a platelet factory. If the GM allows cultured bioware at char-gen, then add reflex recorder/cyberspurs and either a pain editor or a trauma dampener. Be sure to get either muscle replacement or muscle augmentation, since Strength is what make spurs effective. For initiative 'ware, you will probably be stuck at the low end, although if the GM allows cultured bioware, you could stack something like boosted reflexes: 1 and synaptic accelerator: 1 to get at least a halfway-decent initiative.

If you are more interested in an effective character than in recreating Wolverine as precisely as possible, then get ceramic bone lacing and dermal sheath: 3 instead of the titanium. You wind up with about 4 points of impact armor, which makes it a lot easier to soak melee damage.

For skills, be sure to take Pentjak Silat, which allows you to buy maneuvers for cyberspurs such as close combat and whirling. Ninjutsu does, as well, but as written it is not a good martial art for weapons users, since it doesn't have nearly as good a selection of maneuvers (from a combining with cyberspurs perspective)..
spotlite
You know, I think I agree with Alania & Co - its not the spurs, people, its the regeneration you want! Now, you aren't going to get that properly in SR (arguments about the rights and wrongs of cybered shapeshifters aside. Personally I'd say not, but that's just me), but while you're putting all this cyber and weaponry in your poor schmo character, don't forget the quick healer edge and lots of nanoware, plus damage compensators, trauma dampners and all the rest!
Ol' Scratch
Quick Healer, Guardian Angel Nano-Biomonitor, Trauma Dampener, and Symbiotes 3 is all you need to mimick Logan's mutant healing factor (he doesn't regenerate, he just heals *really* fast).

With that combo you automatically gain a 6-die Biotech check on yourself with a -4 TN bonus, but not until after the Trauma Damper has already staged your Wound Level down by one category (by either shifting one box to Stun or eliminating one box of Stun altogether). The Symbiotes and a high Body score then determine how quickly the rest of the wound heals.

So a Deadly Physical wound would immediately become a Serious+3 wound (9 boxes). His Guardian Angel then rolls 6 dice against a TN of 4 (base 8 for what is now a Serious wound, -2 from the Guardian Angel, -2 from Quick Healer) to see if that's staged down to a Moderate wound (3 boxes). He then gets to make his Body test against a TN of 4 to see how long it takes each box to heal, halving the time thanks to his Symbiotes.

And that's just a Deadly wound. Serious wounds would easily become a Light wound, and Moderate and Light wounds would all but be ignored.

At least that's if I remember all that correctly, and chances are I didn't. smile.gif But you get the drift.
CoalHeart
you forgot platelet factories
Ol' Scratch
Platelet Factories would be a waste (since the Trauma Damper is all you need to drop a Wound Level, and the Guardian Angel is likely going to drop it down to the base of the next Wound Level anyway) and a liability (due to the drug dependency).

A Pain Editor would be a good addition, though. Not only does it let him "ignore" his now-minor wounds, but it allows him to continue to function (at least more easily than without one) if he's "knocked unconscious" due to Deadly Stun.
Lindt
Hey, a little redundancy is never a bad thing... especally if you intend on getting railed with deadly wounds all the time, stuff breaks like that...
Zazen
Some games allow a chemical gland that produces the required anti-coagulant. You might also go with an auto-injector with enough extra doses to keep you afloat for a week or two, reducing the risk of being caught without a dose.

If you've already got a character sporting nanites and other expensive/exotic/complicated shit, dealing with the platelet factory drug isn't that big of a deal.
Ol' Scratch
Oh, I agree. It's just like I said, it's largely a waste considering the other components. At best, it would reduce the Deadly wound to Serious+2 instead of Serious+3, but since the Nano-Biomonitor/Biotech test automatically reduces it to the next lowest wound (Moderate; 3 boxes) whether it's S+3 or S+2, it doesn't serve much of a purpose beyond increasing your Bio Index and lessening your resources.

I was just giving a barebones set of options. smile.gif There's nothing wrong with taking the Platelet Factories, it's just a "waste" for the most part. And heaven forbid it did take a Light amount of stress...
JakeMorley
QUOTE (spotlite)
You know, I think I agree with Alania & Co - its not the spurs, people, its the regeneration you want! Now, you aren't going to get that properly in SR (arguments about the rights and wrongs of cybered shapeshifters aside. Personally I'd say not, but that's just me), but while you're putting all this cyber and weaponry in your poor schmo character, don't forget the quick healer edge and lots of nanoware, plus damage compensators, trauma dampners and all the rest!

Actually, the player who asked me about it did want the spurs...smile.gif
Glyph
If you want to go the magical route, you could always play an adept with Improved Ability: Cyber-Implant Combat: 6 who uses a set of dikoted forearm snap blades, and buys the SURGE ability of regeneration (I don't have that particular book, but I am fairly certain that regeneration is one of the abilities that you can purchase). You get someone who rolls 18 dice in combat (assuming you give him the 6-point Ambidexterity Edge too) and heals nearly instantly. And you still have 3 power points to spend.
Cain
You can also go the adept route. Give him Killing Hands, and as a special effect, make them bone spurs that pop from the back of his hands. Improved Unarmed Combat is a given. You can then add Rapid Healing and Mystic Armor, plus Improved Body and Increase Reflexes. He won't be nearly as powerful at first, but as time goes on, he'll get much nastier.

Don't forget to give him the edges of Perceptive and Quick Healer; those, when combined with the other adept abilities, will really make him like the character. The Quick Healer edge works remarkably well with adept abilities and bioware.
Ol' Scratch
Improved Sense (Improved Scent) and Improved Sense (Olfactory Booster) would be a better investment than just the Perceptive edge, though the latter would certainly be a nice boon.
Nonsensical
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein @ Nov 26 2003, 12:35 PM)
Quick Healer, Guardian Angel Nano-Biomonitor, Trauma Dampener, and Symbiotes 3 is all you need to mimick Logan's mutant healing factor (he doesn't regenerate, he just heals *really* fast).

With that combo you automatically gain a 6-die Biotech check on yourself with a -4 TN bonus, but not until after the Trauma Damper has already staged your Wound Level down by one category (by either shifting one box to Stun or eliminating one box of Stun altogether).  The Symbiotes and a high Body score then determine how quickly the rest of the wound heals.

So a Deadly Physical wound would immediately become a Serious+3 wound (9 boxes). His Guardian Angel then rolls 6 dice against a TN of 4 (base 8 for what is now a Serious wound, -2 from the Guardian Angel, -2 from Quick Healer) to see if that's staged down to a Moderate wound (3 boxes).  He then gets to make his Body test against a TN of 4 to see how long it takes each box to heal, halving the time thanks to his Symbiotes.

And that's just a Deadly wound.  Serious wounds would easily become a Light wound, and Moderate and Light wounds would all but be ignored.

At least that's if I remember all that correctly, and chances are I didn't. smile.gif  But you get the drift.

Most characters who ever take a serious wound during combat are quite likely to take multiple serious wounds during a run. Since the leftover boxes can add up, you can't just rely on High Pain Tolerance to take care of them.

For this reason, it's best to combine the Nano-Biomonitor with Nanosymbiotes, which reduce the time it takes to heal a light wound down to no time at all (0x24 hours). So the moment you have less than three boxes of damage, you can make the healing test and be completely unhurt. Using the trauma dampener allows for Serious wounds to be completely gone in around two combat turns without any magic at all, and Moderate wounds to be gone instantly.

Depending on the power level of your game, you might try to create an adept with the 2-3 points of essence loss from bone lacing, nano-stuff, and spurs geased off. If the resultant character is too beefy, choose whether to make the character a street sam or adept and have at it.
Zazen
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
Improved Sense (Improved Scent) and Improved Sense (Olfactory Booster)

Aren't they the same thing?
Ol' Scratch
Nope. Improved Scent (the adept power by default) allows you to identify any smell instantly (ie, "You're not Storm!" <stab!>) while Olfactory Booster (a cybernetic sense, which you can mimick with an adept power) actually gives you multiple dice and a -4 TN on scent-based Perception Tests.
Zazen
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
Olfactory Booster (a cybernetic sense, which you can mimick with an adept power) actually gives you multiple dice and a -4 TN...

"to identify and detect a smell", just like what the adept power enables you to do better.

M&M gave mechanics for what was essentially rule-less fluff in SR3. They both turn smell into a discriminatory sense and enhance its potency, and so I dare someone to tell the difference between an Improved Scent adept and an Olfactory Boosting one.
Cain
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
Improved Sense (Improved Scent) and Improved Sense (Olfactory Booster) would be a better investment than just the Perceptive edge, though the latter would certainly be a nice boon.

You're right, Doc: I had assumed people would have already taken those as a matter of course. When combined with the Perceptive edge, they become incredibly powerful.
spotlite
QUOTE (Zazen)
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein @ Nov 27 2003, 10:46 AM)
Olfactory Booster (a cybernetic sense, which you can mimick with an adept power) actually gives you multiple dice and a -4 TN...

"to identify and detect a smell", just like what the adept power enables you to do better.

M&M gave mechanics for what was essentially rule-less fluff in SR3. They both turn smell into a discriminatory sense and enhance its potency, and so I dare someone to tell the difference between an Improved Scent adept and an Olfactory Boosting one.

Well, I thought the guy had told you the difference. I don't agree with him mind, but he DID explain!

But I'm with you Zazen. They're the same thing. The FAQ states that adept powers which mimic cyber do so at that implant's maximum rating (e.g. select sound filters). I'd say that since the O.B. has specific rules to say how it works, the equivalent power should work the same way. Which means it might still result in 'you're not Storm! STAB!' just the same, mind...
Ol' Scratch
The big difference between the two is that Improved Scent only gives you a standard Perception Test. Olfactory Boosters give you a TN bonus and bonus dice. It's up to a GM whether you can have the latter without the former, but since the former is a default Adept Power, I know a few GMs who (for whatever reason) force you to take it first, then mimick Olfactory Booster with Improved Sense as an almost "second level" of the power.

I listed both mainly to avoid any arguments, but whatever.
spotlite
Doc, I stand by what I said about the FAQ - if it mimics a cyber sense, it does it at max rating right from the start. So the improved scent power should do it like the cyber, there doesn't need to be another 'level' of it. But I respect your right to play it that way, and to think I'm wrong!
Zazen
QUOTE
I know a few GMs who (for whatever reason) force you to take it first, then mimick Olfactory Booster with Improved Sense as an almost "second level" of the power.

I listed both mainly to avoid any arguments, but whatever.


I dig that, then.

I'm curious, what level do they allow you to have Olfactory Boosters at as an adept power? There's no maximum rating in the book, and for twice the cost of a normal improved sense I'd want something pretty damn good.
Ol' Scratch
I don't know about them. I allow it up to 10, which is the max rating in my games for most every gear unless there's specific prices given above that (and then, 20 is absolute max).

And just as a side note, I never said that I require players to take it twice. I think it's retarded to do so. I'm very lenient about such things in my games as I tend to play with players who don't try to abuse the rules.
snowRaven
The 'best' Wolverine type I have come up with stretches canon (if not breaks it...) but does blend in some 'real' science to make it more feasible.

Take a shapeshifter, then give it titanium bone lacing (probably at least beta grade, to account for the planning and difficulty of the operation - check for magic loss and roll 2 or more on a D6 to regenerate the deadly wound(s?)). Since skeletal tissue actually bonds with titanium, this would be the only cybernetic implant a shapeshifter could take, and in theory it would make it impossible for the shifter to actually shapeshift anymore (or gruesomely painful, probably inflicting a Deadly wound (at least) as all the bones in your body break and crumble as the skeleton shifts and breaks and regenerates again) - attach a pair of spurs to the bonelacing (if you want them retractable you have to figure out a mechanical way of doing it, since any neural connections will repair themselves and purge the cyber).

Then you makie the shifter an adept, give him Improved Senses(Hearing, Smell), Improved CyberImplant Combat and whatever else you can squeeze in (Reflexes, Combat Sense...)

If you really want to be like Wolverine you dikote the bonelacing (would be very gruesome for the poor shifter, but it should regenerate the wounds on a roll of 3 or more on a D6 - remember to check for magic loss again)

In the end you'll have a regenerating bad-ass with hard-to-break bones, spurs and an animalistic attitude. It won't like silver or weapon foci, but hey...you can't have everything!

(75 BPs go down the drain just to get the adept shifter(25+25) and the cyber(dikoted beta titanium bonelacing and spurs cost around 600,000 I think - w/o street index) though, so you better have some extra points to spend...) grinbig.gif
El_Machinae
It heavily stretches canon, but sure doesn't break it. Isn't there something in the shapeshifter description that says that extreme amounts of cyberware would prevent them from shifting.

One of the powers you'd have to take would be astral perception - except that you lose it due to the cyberware. In the "bloodlust" comic, the mystics told Logan that he'd normally be able to perceive the astral world, except that his bonding with the cyberware prevented him.

I just looked at the 'quick healer' adept power. Um, doesn't it seem stupid? 0.5 points for a shadow point of body to be used when determining healing tests. Er, why not just take the Improved attribute (body)?
Fortune
QUOTE (El_Machinae)
One of the powers you'd have to take would be astral perception - except that you lose it due to the cyberware.

As 'shifters are dual-natured, wouldn't they already have Astral Perception?
El_Machinae
(Urk) ... (hangs head in shame) ... (contemplates editing post to make Fortune looks crazy) ...
Glyph
Personally, I wouldn't even try combining cyberware and regeneration, but if you do, then do what I suggested earlier - have someone with the SURGE power of regeneration instead of a shapeshifter. Like I said, I don't have that book, but it is probably cheaper than "buying" the shapeshifter race, and you don't have to split things among 9 Attributes, either.
leemur
QUOTE
(if you want them retractable you have to figure out a mechanical way of doing it, since any neural connections will repair themselves and purge the cyber).


Easiest to attach the mechanism directly to the muscle, causing it to extend/distend whenver the muscle is flexed i.e. use the bodies own neural paths.

Of course, you have the problem of involentary muscle contractions causing problems.

QUOTE
(75 BPs go down the drain just to get the adept shifter(25+25) and the cyber(dikoted beta titanium bonelacing and spurs cost around 600,000 I think - w/o street index) though, so you better have some extra points to spend...) grinbig.gif


25+25 = 75? Is that meant to be 50, or does the shapeshifter cost 50?

Ol' Scratch
25 (Shapeshifter) + 25 (Adept) + 25 (650,000 nuyen in Resources) = 75 points.
leemur
QUOTE
So a Deadly Physical wound would immediately become a Serious+3 wound (9 boxes). His Guardian Angel then rolls 6 dice against a TN of 4 (base 8 for what is now a Serious wound, -2 from the Guardian Angel, -2 from Quick Healer) to see if that's staged down to a Moderate wound (3 boxes).  He then gets to make his Body test against a TN of 4 to see how long it takes each box to heal, halving the time thanks to his Symbiotes.


You don't get the -2 for Quick Healer for Biotech, only for long term healing.

Although it's still a damn nifty setup.

Ol' Scratch
No, that would be a personal interpretation of your own (or as most people call it, a house rule). The Quick Healer edge says that you gain the -2 target number modifier on any healing tests, not "long term healing" or any other exception. Uses of spells like Heal and Treat and uses of Biotech are all forms of healing, thus the -2 target number applies.

Further evidence of this is that it's all covered under the "Healing" section of the core rules starting on page 126 and ending on page 129. The table for Biotech even includes similar aspects of the patient, such as high Body scores and their Awakened natures playing a direct roll in the First Aid Test. It would be illogical for Quick Healer (which, again, makes no exceptions to when it's used) not to apply, too. It's a natural characteristic of the character's resilience, just like a high Body is.
Digital Heroin
Changeling/Adept, with Geased Cyberware

SURGE

Improved Scent (2)
Improved Taste (2)
Quick Healer (2)
Astral Hazing (-5) - I figure he's got such a violent aura about him, it works

Adept Powers

Combat Sense (1) 1.0
Improved Physical Attribute: Body 1.0
Counterstrike (2) Geasa: Facing 3+ Assailants 1.0
Rapid Healing (4) Geasa: Damage Serious+ 2.0
Attribute Boost: Strength (4) Geasa: Must Smell Blood 1

Cyberware:

Titanium Bone Lacing 2.25
Dikoted Retractible Spurs (2) 0.6

Bioware

Pain Editor 0.6

Edges

Bravery (1)
Ambidexterity (6)
Adrenaline Surge (2)
Will to Live (3)

Flaws

Combat Monster (-1)
Amnesia (-2)
Flashbacks (-4)
Bad Karma (-5)

He's a touch Edge/Flaw heavy, but given that he's very focused on melee combat, I figure it's not so bad. Can be build for under 200,000 nuyen.gif ; the incarnation I have is a 150BP character, but if you're willing to drop a hell of a lot of manouvers for Pentjak-Silat, and some other skills, he can be made 123BP. It's just my take on it. Hell, I'm just another fanboy.
snowRaven
QUOTE (El_Machinae)
It heavily stretches canon, but sure doesn't break it. Isn't there something in the shapeshifter description that says that extreme amounts of cyberware would prevent them from shifting.

The canon material suggests a rumor that some corp(s?) have discovered especially damaging ways to implant cyber in 'shifters, preventing them from shapeshifting.

My idea came from that and the medical properties of titanium - you can also combine the titanium grafts with some corals that have a similar effect if you want more specific tech (making it impossible for just anyone to do the same procedures) - biggest problem, of course, is performing the operation on the shifter since it regenerates all cuts etc, but with a combination of silvercoated surgical tools and weapon foci surgical tools (Adept of the Surgeon's Way anyone?) it should be possible.

Dikoting the bones once the titanium is implanted is a more barbaric and brutish process which just involves copious anmounts of damage to the shifter as the plasma-process (if I remember correctly from the ShadowTech description) is applied inside and through the shifter's soft tissues.

My take on things is that any purely structural cyber could be applied in a similar way, but once you need neural or muscular connections the regenerative powers purge the 'ware. For instance, you could attach dermal plates to the titanium bones, all manner of cyber weapons (and make them weapon foci too if you want a really nasty combat adept) at least in non-retractable versions. Retractable only works for spurs realistically, and maybe hand razors and fangs (with the implantation of extra teeth). You could also graft body compartments to the bones, although their concalability might be lessened abit, since any removed tissue will simply regenerate back, making the compartment more bulky. And the shifter has to be sliced open to access the compartment.

Remotely triggered tracking signals, small explosive devices, taser devices, injectors and similar can also be attached to the skeleton, to help 'control' the shifter and ensure 'loyalty' to the corp/government who funds the project. upsidedown.gif
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