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CircuitBoyBlue
And thank goodness, because my games would be boring without the barrens!
Stahlseele
QUOTE (Fortune)
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Nov 19 2007, 07:50 PM)
I'd thought it were the Disassemblers . . you know, that big Troll-Biker gang with heavy weapons and magic stuff on bikes who declared that road leading between Tir and Seattle to be their turf?

What are you talking about?

QUOTE (Runner Havens g. 90)
Disassemblers
Turf: Downtown, South Seattle
Colors: Gray and White
These guys are bad news, and their power level is growing steadily as they move up alongside their sponsors, Tamanous. Identified by the painted or tattooed skulls on their faces, the Disassemblers are the Tammies’ front lines, hunting down and securing bodies and body parts for the organlegging trade and not really caring much about whether the bodies in question are still occupied by their current owner. The gang runs most of the illegal chop shops on their turf, and they’ve got “agreements� with local hospitals to provide a steady stream of body parts.

ok, looks like you are right . . i seem to have misremembered something there . . new seattle says they are mostly trolls and orcs though, so i might have switched them with the spike wheels in my head which have become the spikes without me really realizing it somehow <.< . .
Spike
All the comments about 'doing it for the rep, for the peace of mind of the taxpayers'...


.... you forget it's a corporate world, omae. Nobody does anything for rep anymore, thats for Shadow people, people who got nothing else to work for.

The Man? He's all about the money. Sure, Lonestar probably has thousands of goons just itching to go into the barrens with HMG's and flamethrowers and a six pack. Lonestar probably even has a contract all drawn up to clean out either Barrens zone... if someone wants to put up the Nuyen.

But nobody does.

There is no profit in it.



Critias
Money comes from rep. It's called marketing or advertising instead of "street cred," but to think the megacorps don't care at all what people think about them is patently ridiculous.
Ravor
Yep, otherwise they wouldn't spend all that untold amounts of nuyen.gif on spin-docters and borderline psyche-grade simsense marketing.

But in the end, I have to fall on the side that says the corps really wouldn't care much about "TrollTown" being set up in the deep Barrens, but due to the nature of the Barrens I can't see "TrollTown" as being anything more then a couple of blocks controled by a Troll Warlord-wannabe, just like any other portion of the deep Barrens.

Edit: Slight correction, "Troll Warlord-wannabe" as opposed to "Troll-wannabe Warlord". My bad. embarrassed.gif
kzt
Rep matters

Nobody smart hires a bodyguard who survived unscathed when his last 6 clients got killed.

Nobody smart lends money to the guy who has bankrupted 3 companies in row and left his investors holding the bag while sailing off on his yacht bought with their money.

After the 3rd successful armed home invasion of the Don's house, will this increase or decrease the likelihood of people paying their street tax?
Spike
Alright then, all you 'rep matters' guys:

Tell me then which corporation has built their reputation on keeping the trolls from setting up shop in the Barrens?

I mean: Ares's rep is for excellent guns

MCT is all about, what, computers, right?

Lonestars' rep is built on keeping crime down in the areas they've been contracted to. Nobody has contracted them to keeping the barrens clean.

Or to rephrase it they way you guys did:

Nobody cares if your bodyguard has a rep as a math wiz.

Nobody cares if the CEO of your company has a rep as a mean chess player.

If the street gang you pay for protection money also has a rep as having an awesome streethockey team, does it add or subtract value from their 'protection tax'?
Stahlseele
add
that means they hit hard with big sticks, and they know how to brawl(compare todays ice-hockey) . . and that is worth something *g*
Ravor
Although I consider myself one of the "Rep Matters Guys", I don't think TrollTown would ever get to the point where it was even a blip on the corp's radar in part because "Rep Matters", in order to even have a chance to suceed your Troll Visionary needs to convince enough Trolls that his dream is important enough for them to walk away from their current lives and rep and fight a bloody war to claim a block or two to call their own. I don't buy this happening, very few of the Trogs that actually have legit jobs and lives aren't going to be willing to give up that life for a "promise". And the Trogs that are already in the Barrens, most of them either want to be left alone or are already a member in a gang, and chummer, your gang is your family no matter how rough around the edges it is, so you aren't going to get very many recruits from that segment either.

However, let's assume that the Troll Visionary is able to gather up a crew of his own and takes over a city block or two as their tuff. So what? In order to hold it they are going to have to spend just as much time defending it as any other gang does, and what are they going to do with the non-trolls that were already living there?

Bascially I don't see TrollTown working for the same reason that no-one, Trog or otherwise has been able to build a shining city on the hill in the Barrens, and that isn't because the corps "step on the little man" in the Barrens (Although they would if they felt such a project might possibly suceed.), it's because the Barrens themselves have reached a tipping point into anarchy and there simply isn't enough decent people (Even by 2070 standards.) left in the Barrens to change anything.


Now with all this said, I'm fairly sure that you probably do have blocks of tuff that are controled by an all Trog gang, or prehaps even mostly Trog tribes even deeper in the Barrens, but where I disagree is with the idea that they would ever be able to set aside their differences and band together to build something of the Barrens.
Spike
Recall that I'm not just talking about 'control' of a few blocks. I'm talking about rebuilding that same few blocks into troll sized accomodations.

The 'Troll Messiah' doesn't have to convince trolls to leave their gangs, particularly their 'troll only' gangs. Nor does he have to restrict himself to trolls with legit jobs. I imagine a good deal of work, if this were to happen, would include convincing larger Troll Gangs to sign on en toto, that is, convince the leader of the gang that this is good for them too. You don't convince them to leave their family (the Gang) you convince them to see their family as part of a larger family (troll kind).

Worked for Mohammed...
Smilin_Jack
If I were a non-troll that lived in the barrens next to where this troll messiah was trying to rally the trolls - I'd support him (if he wasn't advocating death to non-trolls at least), especially if I were a mage, shaman, or decker. Sometimes it really pays to have BIG friends that you can hide out with.

Of course that's the cynical/practical view that most of my runners end up having.

Ravor
Sure, I understand what you are saying, but what I'm saying is that I don't believe the "Troll Messiah" would ever get a chance to actually build anything because his people would be thrust into the same gang/tribal warfare that prevents any group from actually building a new Camalot in the Barrens.

As for gathering up the various Trog gangs for a long term goal, well I see that as being just as likely as someone doing the same with the various human or elf gangs, racial identity is all well and good, but at the end of the day gangbangers are still gangbangers, and I just don't see it happening. Because even if you do manage to get the gangs to play nice with each other what happens to their turf while they are protecting TrollTown?

And as I've said, if TrollTown did manage to get off the ground by some divine stroke of luck then the powers that be had better be getting their cut of the action or TrollTown is likely to be the victim of an unfortunate "gas line explosion", but hey, what do the dirty Trogs expect stealing from the good people of the city?

Spike
QUOTE (Ravor)
Sure, I understand what you are saying, but what I'm saying is that I don't believe the "Troll Messiah" would ever get a chance to actually build anything because his people would be thrust into the same gang/tribal warfare that prevents any group from actually building a new Camalot in the Barrens.

As for gathering up the various Trog gangs for a long term goal, well I see that as being just as likely as someone doing the same with the various human or elf gangs, racial identity is all well and good, but at the end of the day gangbangers are still gangbangers, and I just don't see it happening. Because even if you do manage to get the gangs to play nice with each other what happens to their turf while they are protecting TrollTown?

And as I've said, if TrollTown did manage to get off the ground by some divine stroke of luck then the powers that be had better be getting their cut of the action or TrollTown is likely to be the victim of an unfortunate "gas line explosion", but hey, what do the dirty Trogs expect stealing from the good people of the city?

I expect that what actually keeps people from building anything in the Barrens is a lack of motivation/know how. Defensive operations take surprisingly little energy, and if we assume that a significant percentage of Trolls are Shadowrunner/gangbangers anyway, those with the guns and violent attitudes are put to work guarding the perimeter while the Trolls that took SINner Jobs as laborers and workers (construction? I'd guess:Yes) demolish the shantytowns and ruins and start building troll sized stuff the hard way.

You aren't going to get skyscrapers... certainly not at first, but you will see distinct improvements... particularly if you happen to be 'extra large'.


Elves already did it with the two Tir nations. Orks did it with the Underground. Humans don't NEED to do it, but ironically enough: Tookie Williams, working from prison, was well on his way to unifying the major streetgangs under a single cultural identity 'Gangs' vs 'Non-Gangs' presumably. One assumes Torgo and the Spikes would relish having some turf they actually fit in, co-opting 'criminals' to become 'the Man' is far from unheard of. Instead of shaking down the Trolls directly in a racket, they get paid by the nominal government of Trolltown directly for real protection. The attitude is already prevelant in the Barrens according to fluff.

As for your third point:We've already been debating that. Bring in more arguements rather than just naked acceptance that it is so, and I'll happily continue that line of discussion. biggrin.gif
kzt
Have you seen a commercial building before the hanging ceiling was put in?

Typically you have 12 ft Deck/Deck, sometimes 16-20+ feet. The problem is that the damn contractors just run crap wherever it is easy unless they are really closely supervised and made to follow the coordination drawings, so you end up with 8 ft ceilings due to the 3 feet of dead space above the 6 ft wide barrier of EMT 6" above the grid.

Me, bitter? Why do you ask?

Anyhow, if you rip this down you have lots of space. You just need to live without the stuff you ripped out until you can pay to get it fixed correctly.
Ravor
The Elves have the IEs with whatever Fourth World Lore that is worth, plus unless I've gotten a wire crossed somewhere there was a Great Dragon involved.

The Orks have raw numbers on their side, not to mention that the Underground was able to get up and running in relative peace as opposed to the Barrens.

As for defensive operations and people not building anything because they don't know how or are motivated? Nonsense, the reason people don't build anything in the Barrens is because whenever they do other people come in and try to take it away, and failing that there is always "If I can't have it then no-one can." to fall back on. This is the Barrens, if a charismatic warlord could carve out his own little kingdom and build a new Camalot then you can bet your last nuyen that someone would have already done so troll or otherwise.

*Shrugs* It's really as simple as the fact that changing the status-quo is a really scary prospect for the powers-that-be. Of course, it is a matter of degrees, if a trog warlord controls a couple city blocks then that is just the normal background noise generated by any other number of warlords and gangs in the Barrens and it doesn't even register. However if the "Troll Messiah" starts gathering up trolls from all walks of life and is actually building something lasting in the middle of Barrens then it becomes a threat, no-one wants another Tir or even another Underground in their backyard.

The solution? Hire a team of Shadowrunners to plant a bomb and blame the explosion on TrollTown illegally tapping into gas lines, whether they were or not.


Stahlseele
The main Problem is, that to get the benefits of operating in defense mode you first have to go into offense mode to actually gather the land you want to defend for your own from people who allready have said land and intend to defend it for their own . . Stalingrad, Berlin . . every combat taking place in an urban "land"scape is going to be fighting for every building . . and for trolls it will be the equivalent of having to do it up the hill against the wind because the one thing making them good fighters is ALSO making them good targets . . their size . . and when they actually get into the buildings they still have the same problems, because in most doorways a troll can get easyly stuck . . and there's no way two trols would be able to walk side by side through most floors so they have to go one at a time and can be picked off as such . . i actually simulated something of that kind once with some big buddies of mine in an old deserted playground in castle/fort style but in kid-size . . yes, i know, i have waayy too much time if i can actually go and simulate urban fighting with trolls x.x. .
Whipstitch
The sort of troll or ork whose life would be improved by taking on such a venture likely can't afford to even have the words "long term plan" in his vocabulary. They simply don't live terribly long, even if they don't get gunned down in a Z zone. Father Time is a very real obstacle preventing trolls and orks getting into positions of real power and influence. To say that your average SINless Barrens ork or troll has an outside shot of living past 30 is probably rather optimistic. What're the odds that the Troll Messiah is going to obtain the reputation, followers and skills needed to attempt such a coup and then actually manage to hang on long enough to get things established?

This li'l fact of life is another of the many, many reasons why you don't see trolls and ork top executives either. Even if born into the best of circumstances the human dominated world simply doesn't work on their time table. If an ork or troll is born under ideal circumstances, goes to school, gets into college or some corporate training program and comes out smelling like roses he's still going to have some dues to pay and connections to make before becoming a real top dog. The average age of CEOs is typically 50 and up today (and it skews even older in Japan, home of the future Megas), and many orks and trolls are going to be dead by then under the best of circumstances, and the corps know it. I'm sure that there is plenty of rich old Policlub members who like to trot that idea around the dinner table when talking about how those brutish metas really ought to stick to the physical labor "befitting their nature" rather than try and enter the business world.
Spike
Ravor: You so casually dismiss the trolls by pointing to the advantages those other guys had, while simultaniously ignoring the advantage Trolls have in just that sort of conflict... their bastard huge size.
Amusing.


Stahlseele: You miss the point: The Trolls, they don't want your half sized buildings. They will tear them down around your ears, thats all they need to do. Besides, in the barrens you are talking mostly ruins and scrapbuilt huts anyway. The only reason to take land in the barrens, rather in less occupied land is access to the infrastructure of a city. This isn't a kingdom, its a neighborhood.

Whipstich: Trolls can live 50 years. In fact, I think their lifespans are a bit longer than Orks, though I could be mistaken on that, its been a while. Plenty of time to accomplish quite a bit. May I remind you of Kennedy?
Ravor
Sure, because I don't consider their "bastard huge size" as you put it nearly enough of an advantage to be worth more then a footnote at best when compared to Great Dragons (Elves), Fourth World Lore (Elves), and Largely Uncontested Land (Orks).

Are trolls tough SOBs? Yep.

Is it enough for a gang to carve out a couple of blocks as their turf? Likely.

Is it enough to build a new Camalot in the middle of the Barrens? Not a chance in hell.
Whipstitch
They live a bit longer, in fact; a troll with a SIN will live for 55 years on average. Kennedy's also a bit of a special case though; he was exceptionally young for a president and as a general rule you need to be an exceptional political performer for the better part of two or three decades before you have the connections to take a realistic shot at the presidency. A troll would be doing well to get elected and live through two terms even in a world without prejudice. I also doubt that they're the paragons of good health right up until the day they buy the farm either. As an ork or a troll, you've got to hit the ground running and work against the odds to leave much of a mark on the world. It's surely not impossible, but things really are stacked against them in many, many ways. Barrens riff-raff really have only 15-30 years to figure out what it is they want out of life and to go after it before poor health or gang violence takes them out. And frankly who else is there to do it but Barrens riff-raff? What other motivation other than already living in vile conditions can there be for forcibly moving into the Barrens. Don't get me wrong, I truly believe there's going to be small pockets of troll neighborhoods out there and the like. Trolls populations in some areas will increase because just like anyone else they have children and families tend to stick together and keep in touch and before you know it you have a tiny slice of trollville in some neighborhoods. I just don't think there's going to be one obvious mini-revolution out there either.
Stahlseele
QUOTE
Stahlseele: You miss the point: The Trolls, they don't want your half sized buildings.

i am very much on the point . . if you don't have access to large ammounts of heavy weaponry you still need to get close to the building to tear it down . . to place explosives, you need to get at best inside the building, at worst on the outside wall to place them . . anything else is a pretty much hands on approach that will take time and you moving from top to bottom if you don't want to have the building collapsing on you . . and to get close and be able to work you need to get the people who are inside out . . and if they don't want to be brought out of the building then you have the situation i described . . and that situation makes a nice target in enclosed space out of trolls and nice targets to shoot at from inside a building . . heck, you'd probably only need to barr the doors . . if trolls have trouble going in through doors allready, then there's no way in hell that trolls will be able to fit through usual windows . .
Tarantula
You don't even need demolitions. Most buildings in the barrens are shambles already, I'm sure most strong trolls have enough strength to beat out a support, or move a vital piece of wall.
Spike
I was under the impression that Trolls single biggest age degeration was arthritus, for whatever that is worth. Kennedy wasn't exactly in great health either, in fact he comes out even better once you realize what bad shape he really was in, its motivation almost as much as anything else (being born rich helps in politics, but our Troll Messiah doesn't require wealth or popular election... at least not with pinks wink.gif )

Stahl: We are talking the barrens, buildings that have been left to ruin for 50 years, shanty town shacks and the like. I imagine a gang of determined trolls could simply SHOVE over the average building...
Stahlseele
any of you read that part i wrote about the building collapsing on you ? O.o
i am on the side of the trolls here, i am pointing out problems they WILL have . . and i may be naive to think that trolls would mind having buildings collapse on them, but i do <.< . .
Tarantula
Well, if the ceiling of the one story building is less than your height, it isn't exactly collapsing ON you is it?
Mercer
QUOTE (Ravor)
Is it enough to build a new Camalot in the middle of the Barrens? Not a chance in hell.

This is an important point, because even if you build a troll utopia, people still have to show up for it. Most trolls who have half a shot of making it in mainstream society (SINs, jobs, training, kids) are going to fare better on the bottom rung of Lower Middle Lifestyle rather than trading it all in for being hunter-gatherers in the Barrens. Who in their right mind is going to go be squatters in the most polluted wastelands of the city if they have any other options at all?

That's not to say no one will show up, hell, even Jonestown got 900 or so people to go there. Of course, they had a much wider group to pull from, taking humans (which made up approximately 100% of the human race at that time). If 900 people would join that cult (and let's assume for simplicities sake that Jonestown in Southern California had roughly the same population size to pull from as Seattle in 2070), then that means 9 or so trolls would show up for this one.

Now, the idea of a troll Jonestown is one I can get behind. A handful of crazy trolls drinking massive amounts of poisoned kool-aid is exactly the sort of dystopian nutkick I could see going on in the Barrens.
Paradigm
Had some time this week to let this whole thing stew in my mind, and I think that something like this might actually be quite workable. The whole Orxploitation and orc underground scenes do also involve trolls as part of the whole 'Goblin rock culture' and the or'zet needing tusks for pronunciation idea.

If Trolltown were to be framed as an offshoot of the orc underground it wouldn't even be that hard to imagine a setting like that even in the current setting. Might just be limited to Troll street in that instance. But it's far from beyond the realm of possibility. Can easily see someone (a corp, a rich troll, metahuman/troll rights bent society) converting a piece of real estate to troll sized appartments, if only for the fact that they'd be able to get premium prizes from the average troll to live somewhere comfortable. It's cheap real estate, let someone build something like that in a C or D zone and the tenants/buyers would likely kill eachother to get in.

As for the Trolltown 'kingdom' in the barrens idea, it's hard, yes. But the realisation of something like that might make an excellent campaign plot and it can be framed however people want. Doubt it'd be the first time that runners (or more specifically, players)were to try to make the place they live safer by striking deals with gangs and other residents or starting the local (heavily armed) neighborhood watch. This would just be a more extreme/specific situation.

Possible plot/campaign hooks:
- PCs as troll gangers involved in the project.
- PCs living in said neighorhood, can choose to help or oppose it
- PCs as driving force behind Trolltown (for the more political campaign)
- PCs get hired to sabotage/protect construction sites or important figures
Or the whole 'Trolltown as front for..' angle
- Universal Brotherhood 2.0 (they want bigger/stronger hosts)
- Corp wanting some oblivious test subjects
- Deus/Scientology type indoctrination (implants/chemicals or the real life UB)

Should be plenty more
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